Health care bill passed!!!!

[masoudA]

Natural Here is one for you. This is how you sound to me - and in fact how you are. Over and over you have proven to be "Name" drriven. As soon as you hear Glenn Beck, or RP....it does not matter what the subject is.............Read my post again and just try to come up with a single issue to disagree with.
I never said I read the bill - have you?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Harlem voters[/ame]


ADC - so the US military and local police is the same as medical industry to you? How about drugstore should the government take that over too?

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

Natural Here is one for you. This is how you sound to me - and in fact how you are. Read my post again and just try to come up with a single sentense to disagree with.

YouTube- Harlem voters


ADC - so the US military and local police is the same as medical industry to you? How about drugstore should the government take that over too?

Yes. I believe that the safety of the people and the health of the people should have baseline standards that should be provided by the government. Just like education and transportation. What makes police and fire any different from health? Can you not use talking points and give me specific reasons as to why this bill was bad?

 

[Natural]

Natural Here is one for you. This is how you sound to me - and in fact how you are. Over and over you have proven to be "Name" drriven. As soon as you hear Glenn Beck, or RP....it does not matter what the subject is.............Read my post again and just try to come up with a single issue to disagree with.
I never said I read the bill - have you?

YouTube- Harlem voters


ADC - so the US military and local police is the same as medical industry to you? How about drugstore should the government take that over too?

I haven't read the bill thats why I'm not taking a position on this matter yet.

You claimed you disagree with the bill, and that the congress men who voted for it have no idea where this bill will take us.

since you have certainly taken a position against it, while you didn't even read the bill, and know nothing about it, dont you think you are making a fool out of youself on this board like that?

 

[masoudA]

What some of you fail to understand is that good or bad America is about "private sector" and a government that tries to stay away from business practices.

Mark my words -
When the Bill goes into effect (2014?), Quality of medical services will drop drastically - and you and I will have to pay twice what we pay today in order to get the same service we recieve today. On the positive side, many people (Estimated 30 million) who have no medical insurance today will have access to some medical care in the future. So the bottom line is quality of care will drastically crash for the middle class (majority of Americans who won't be able to afford to pay more), cost of health care (with today's standards) will double for the upper class, and some 30 million of the lower class Americans will have minimum healthcare.

BTW - this Bill will also make having medical insurance a must - just like car insurance. Therefore most younger folks who do not get insurance while they are under 40, will now be required by law to have medical insurance.

Also - the bureaucracy tied to health insurance shall double - and that is not all bad - it means the government will hire many to process the system.

Finally - Not even the Congressmen who voted yesterday are fully clear about what the bill is and where it will take us.

ADC - so you are saying all Doctors, Nurses, ....should work for the government and Gov should own and operate all hospitals? You are waaaay to the left of socialism. I am not saying that is bad - but if you read my post again - I said good or bad that is not what America stands for.

Natural - you see my dear - you are acting like an ollahi - does not matter what masoud says - you have to attack.

I did not take an anti Health care Bill position - I even mentioned it's main advantage in providing some 30 million with medical coverage they currently don't have.

Here ae the main points I raised - and would love to hear which ones specifically you disagree with - especially ADC who said he disagrees with every point!!!

1- This Bill is anti capitalist free market American. It may be good - but it is not what America is about.
2- This Bill will reduce the overall Quality of healthcare for the 176 million who currently have insurance. In order for me to keep the current quality of service in the future I will have to pay twice to buy the so called "Cadillac Plan".
3- The Bill will provide care to 30 million Americans who have not health care coverage now.
4- People will be required to buy healthcare insurance. Just as Auto Insurance.
5- The new system will generate a lot of new government jobs, to process healthcare paperwork.
6- Finally I made a comment about even Congressmen being not totally clear on the 6000+ pages bill and the additional 600 pages which will be added in the next phase. It's all over the place.

 

[Zob Ahan]

Natural Here is one for you. This is how you sound to me - and in fact how you are. Over and over you have proven to be "Name" drriven. As soon as you hear Glenn Beck, or RP....it does not matter what the subject is.............Read my post again and just try to come up with a single issue to disagree with.
I never said I read the bill - have you?

YouTube- Harlem voters


ADC - so the US military and local police is the same as medical industry to you? How about drugstore should the government take that over too?

The difference between this clip and Natural's is that this inteview was done with illiterate people in Harlem whereas his was done with people whom are politically active and are joined together against a bill that they knew nothing about.

 

[Natural]

1- This Bill is anti capitist free market American. It may be good - but it is not what America is about.

Is black water and Guantanamo bay what America all about?

2- This Bill will reduce the overall Quality of healthcare for the 176 million who currently have insurance. In order for me to keep the current quality of service in the future I will have to pay twice to buy the so called "Cadillac Plan".

You are just speculating here. How do you know this for sure if you haven't read the bill? From what fair and balance media outlet did you hear this? did your buddy Glenn Beck tell you?


3- The Bill will provide care to 30 million Americans who have not health care coverage now.

True.

4- People will be required to buy healthcare insurance. Just as Auto Insurance.

True.


5- The new system will generate a lot of new government jobs, to process healthcare paperwork.

Maybe.

6- Finally I made a comment about even Congressmen being not totally clear on the 6000+ pages bill and the additional 600 pages which will be added in the next phase. It's all over the place.

Did you talk to all the reps? How do you know this for sure?

Also, Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, which is the Democrats' health care reform proposal is about 2000 pages. Where did you come up with 6000+. I bet Limbaugh.

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

ADC - so you are saying all Doctors, Nurses, ....should work for the government and Gov should own and operate all hospitals? You are waaaay to the left of socialism. I am not saying that is bad - but if you read my post again - I said good or bad that is not what America stands for.

NO. I said that basic care should be paid for. Just like Medicare and Medicaid which work very well. How am I to the left of socialism? Why is it you repubdogs believe that if you agree with one idea you are part of the entire ideology? If you read my posts in this thread, you will understand how I am nowhere near socialistic.

Natural - you see my dear - you are acting like an ollahi - does not matter what masoud says - you have to attack.

I did not take an anti Health care Bill position - I even mentioned it's main advantage in providing some 30 million with medical coverage they currently don't have.

Here ae the main points I raised - and would love to hear which ones specifically you disagree with - especially ADC who said he disagrees with every point!!!

1- This Bill is anti capitist free market American. It may be good - but it is not what America is about.

This is a talking point. Many aspects of America are not free market. I already named several.

2- This Bill will reduce the overall Quality of healthcare for the 176 million who currently have insurance. In order for me to keep the current quality of service in the future I will have to pay twice to buy the so called "Cadillac Plan".

Based on what?? Did medicare and medicaid reduce the quality of care? Stop regurgitating Fox News talking points, give me factual reasons why.

3- The Bill will provide care to 30 million Americans who have not health care coverage now.

Thats bad?!? LOL

4- People will be required to buy healthcare insurance. Just as Auto Insurance.

Wrong. It will levy a tax on people who dont buy insurance. Basically its raising taxes a bit, something that wouldve been done anyway. You can call it a requirement if you like, or a tax break for people who get insurance, its just semantics.

5- The new system will generate a lot of new government jobs, to process healthcare paperwork.

WRONG. Systems are already in place because of medicare and medicaid. If anything it will streamline the present system. Ask any doctor about what system requires more work and overhead, the paperwork of the insurance system or medicare system?

6- Finally I made a comment about even Congressmen being not totally clear on the 6000+ pages bill and the additional 600 pages which will be added in the next phase. It's all over the place.
Its really not. Its pretty clear actually.

Masoud, you really need to stop with the talking points and read a little bit. Its not your views people have issue with as much as it is your lack of analysis and information. Your posts are just talking points and hyperbole.

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

BTW, this is very important and overlooked part of the bill:

Insurers must now reveal how much money is spent on overhead.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Excellent post. But by "market" I think Farbod is referring to the current dysfunctional system and not the real free-market system.

That may be. Nevertheless the right way to improve the situation is not to take more freedom away to restore the balance, i.e. less freedom for both sides as dictated by government. The right way is to restore freedom: bargaining power to the one side that has lost it through laws.

Instead of moving from a special-interest welfare system, the current system, towards a socialist system, the right way is to move towards a free market system.

If you ask anyone who actually has truly experienced socialist medicine, you will find out that they hate it and know how bad it is.

2000 pages of law are not needed. A few simple changes to remove laws that are special interest welfare would do marvels.

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

That may be. Nevertheless the right way to improve the situation is not to take more freedom away to restore the balance, i.e. less freedom for both sides as dictated by government. The right way is to restore freedom: bargaining power to the one side that has lost it through laws.

Instead of moving from a special-interest welfare system, the current system, towards a socialist system, the right way is to move towards a free market system.

If you ask anyone who actually has truly experienced socialist medicine, you will find out that they hate it and know how bad it is.

2000 pages of law are not needed. A few simple changes to remove laws that are special interest welfare would do marvels.

Honestly, read the bill. Its actually much much more of a check on the insurance industry than it is socialistic. Dont believe the crap in the media, especially from the right.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Honestly, read the bill. Its actually much much more of a check on the insurance industry than it is socialistic. Dont believe the crap in the media, especially from the right.

Farbod jaan, ok, here is one,

When Bush and the Republican Congress passed the Medicare prescription drug program, the largest single governmental program since the 1930s, they had it so that the government could not bargain for prices on drugs. That is a good one! they are mandated to buy but they are prevented to bargain. Talk about special-interest welfare. The results followed. We had an acceleration in increase in price of prescription drugs even when we had deflation in the rest of the economy. Of course this should be expected.

Now, can the government bargain for lower prices on prescription drugs for medicare in the healthcare reform?

 

[masoudA]

Masoud, you really need to stop with the talking points and read a little bit. Its not your views people have issue with as much as it is your lack of analysis and information. Your posts are just talking points and hyperbole.

ADC - Thanx for the suggestion and Please don't speak for the "people".
I read enough but as I told you before, having the right information is crucial, but more importantly is to have the vision and the experience to know what to do with the info- or put the pieces together. That is why people solve 3rd degree equations - to expand and excercise their brain.

As for the points - after reading yours and Naturals responses - I rest my case. After those replies the discussion has nowhere to go but down.

 

[Natural]

ADC - Thanx for the suggestion and Please don't speak for the "people".
I read enough but as I told you before, having the right information is crucial, but more importantly is to have the vision and the experience to know what to do with the info- or put the pieces together. That is why people solve 3rd degree equations - to expand and excercise their brain.

As for the points - after reading yours and Naturals responses - I rest my case. After those replies the discussion has nowhere to go but down.

That's because you took 'point' #2 right out of your ass. and now you cant defend it.

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

ADC - Thanx for the suggestion and Please don't speak for the "people".
I read enough but as I told you before, having the right information is crucial, but more importantly is to have the vision and the experience to know what to do with the info- or put the pieces together. That is why people solve 3rd degree equations - to expand and excercise their brain.

As for the points - after reading yours and Naturals responses - I rest my case. After those replies the discussion has nowhere to go but down.

Honestly youre an idiot. At least have a few facts man, not just rhetoric. Its funny because you say you are for the "greens" yet you pull the same shit as AN does. You make a claim, then when asked to back it up with facts, you use vague responses and circular reasoning. YOU MADE THE CLAIM, not us, so back them up with something. I would pay good money to be in a moderated debate with you.

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

Farbod jaan, ok, here is one,

When Bush and the Republican Congress passed the Medicare prescription drug program, the largest single governmental program since the 1930s, they had it so that the government could not bargain for prices on drugs. That is a good one! they are mandated to buy but they are prevented to bargain. Talk about special-interest welfare. The results followed. We had an acceleration in increase in price of prescription drugs even when we had deflation in the rest of the economy. Of course this should be expected.

Now, can the government bargain for lower prices on prescription drugs for medicare in the healthcare reform?

FP, I dont disagree with you at all. The reason for this is because the government is in the pocket of the special interests. The only way they can put a government program in place, is to provide for a very large kick back to the private sector.

Read this bill. While it does create some regulation for the out of control insurance companies, it gives them 30 million new customers!

I agree with what you are saying completely. But you have to understand the context that is the US special interest arena, and until special interest money is completely driven out of US politics (will never happen) you must account for their existence and adjust accordingly. True Free markets will never exist, and true Laissez-Faire economics only work in a vacuum.

Plus, while increasing bargaining power works in a perfect world, there are some consumers that are "uninsurable" in any free market system. Someone with cancer or AIDS has to be absorbed or packaged socially, or else they will be left to die. Its a hard choice, but one that must be taken against a perfect free market system.

 

[Natural]

Fox's Desperate Final Push to Kill Health Care Reform


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBVavSRUqGI"]YouTube- Fox's Desperate Final Push to Kill Health Care Reform[/ame]

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

Fox's Desperate Final Push to Kill Health Care Reform


YouTube- Fox's Desperate Final Push to Kill Health Care Reform

Glenn Dreck, misquotes the New England Journal of Medicine BADLY. The NEJM is behind this bill BIG TIME. This was posted the other day by an MD PhD that writes for them:

But this legislation will do more than make history: it will make a real difference. It will help the uninsured and the insured. It will help young families and seniors. It will help small businesses and help to reduce the federal deficit. It will save thousands of lives by broadening access to medical services.

 

[lordofmordor]

How do you get that number. A good percentage of your tax goes to the military and defense. How do you get 30% of the 42% going to health insurance?

The Canadian situation is uglier than many would like to believe.

Here, I pay a hefty 42% income tax of which the government claims 30% is for health-care costs.

If I earned $100K/year, that would be $30,000/year for health-care costs. I don't have the option of opting out of this scam. I don't even have the option of paying the damn money but expect better health-care for additional money! I'm stuck with an incompetent, slow and downright dangerous group of health-care workers who couldn't give a fuck if I died in their emergency waiting room.

For $30,000/year, I could get top notch care in the poorest countries on Earth.

I realize my tax is covering the costs for some other unprivileged people as well, but I would only feel happy about that if I had the luxury of getting somewhat decent service myself.

 

[lordofmordor]

Find it hard to believe people still argue against regulations and want the companies to regulate themselves. We saw what the lack of regulation did to the financial market. Almost destroyed america while a small percentage of thieves stole millions and still keeping their jobs. Yet, republicans and their supporters want the business as usual. While the thieves are still holding up to their job, they want the thieves to go on without regulations.

As for insurance while many of the heads are billionaires, such as the head of progresso, many are declined coverage although they paid for insurance. While for many it is hard to put themselves into other people's shoes, they will not like it once it happens to them, but then it is too late.

As for the financial crap about how the bill will cost so much, etc.. this is the only way to balance the budget. The cost to government has been very high and the government needs to do something to control the cost and balance the budget.

Unfortunately, the powerful insurance lobbyists have been able to keep the people in the dark about the real truth while they thieve away money that is suppose to be used for covering the sick.

Wake up, you dont want your taxes raised, but yet, you want the business to go as usual, no regulations and a small percentage stealing away billions. This cant go on, even if the government wanted. It will just destroy the economy of this country.

I do agree that this bill does not go far enough and the republican, the lobbyiests and uninformed supporters destroyed it. But still it is better than nothing.

 

[Farbod (ADC)]

How do you get that number. A good percentage of your tax goes to the military and defense. How do you get 30% of the 42% going to health insurance?

Actually according to http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/09/index-eng.asp

Canada spent about 7% of their collected tax revenue on Defense and about 9% of Health Care via direct cash transfers, however there is another 3%-12% that is given indirectly if you read below. BT's math gave a 12.6% figure, which is probably a bit understated as the real amount is closer to 18%.

The Canada Health Transfer (CHT) last year provided provinces and territories with cash support for health programs equal to about 9 cents of each tax dollar ($21.5 billion).

Federal support for health care goes beyond cash payments under the Canada Health Transfer and the Equalization program.
For example, in 1977 the federal and provincial governments agreed to have provinces take over a share of federal taxes to supplement direct cash transfers. In 2007–08, these “tax points” added some $21.6 billion to provincial finances for programs such as health care, as well as post-secondary education and social assistance and social services.
There is also direct health-related spending by the federal government itself, which
contributed roughly $6 billion last year. This included funding for First Nations health services; health care for veterans; and programs for health protection, disease prevention, health information and health-related research.