No question a fantastic athlete but Ali for most part and according to most was a complete arrogant asshole, even to those close to him! Ali was also quite unintelligent.
Just because one has charisma and is a champ does not make him a great person.
Frazer and foreman on the other hand are beloved with no one saying nothing bad about them ever. These were the true people's champions. Both frazer and foreman helped everyone around them including ali whenever they could while ali talked behind their back and bad mouthed them. Both these two guys were amazing people and by far smarter than ali.
But then one can not help but to like ali.
Just because one has charisma and is a champ does not make him a great person.
Frazer and foreman on the other hand are beloved with no one saying nothing bad about them ever. These were the true people's champions. Both frazer and foreman helped everyone around them including ali whenever they could while ali talked behind their back and bad mouthed them. Both these two guys were amazing people and by far smarter than ali.
But then one can not help but to like ali.
^^^^
I wouldn't call him unintelligent or dumb. It takes some intelligence to be able to get to people like he did and also his thrash talking had lots of wit. Usually, charismatic people are seldom dumb, or at least I can't think of too many examples. Besides, one reason people champion Ali that much also is because he risked his career for not going to Vietnam, which is a decision to each his own on how to judge.
But he wasn't the smartest when it came to communicating with people(being an asshole etc.) which is however common among people with a huge ego.
I wouldn't call him unintelligent or dumb. It takes some intelligence to be able to get to people like he did and also his thrash talking had lots of wit. Usually, charismatic people are seldom dumb, or at least I can't think of too many examples. Besides, one reason people champion Ali that much also is because he risked his career for not going to Vietnam, which is a decision to each his own on how to judge.
But he wasn't the smartest when it came to communicating with people(being an asshole etc.) which is however common among people with a huge ego.
Mr. history: go do your basic research before whorshipping someone! even most american blacks hate ali! most blacks prefer frazer and foreman any day over the arrogant jackass that was muhammad ali ! just cause one is loud doesnt mean they make sense!
here go read this and learn ! - from balck sports writers too:
Muhammad Ali Owes Joe Frazier an Apology
By BonaFide Sports Expert Robert Littalon April 15, 2009 12:45 PM | Permalink | Comments (38) | TrackBacks (0)
I use to ride the city bus to High School many years ago. My mom use to drop me off at the bus stop early in the morning and I would have to wait for a few minutes before the bus came. There was a homeless drunk who use to hang out at the bus stop. He was a harmless old man, but he had a lot of philosophies about life that I remember to this day. One day he was telling me about the decisions you make in life and he said this:
"The direction of your life is dependent on the decisions you make or the decisions people make for you. In your lifetime you will have many fork in the road decisions some big, some small but whichever way you go you will always wonder what would have happened if you went the other way."
Joe Frazier October 1st 1975 Manila, Philippines end of the 14th round. Frazier already half blind in the left eye, right eye closed completely begs his trainer Eddie Futch to let him continue the fight. Watch the video and you see a battered and bruised Frazier saying "No" and "I want him Boss" as Futch is telling him he is stopping the fight. Unbeknown to Frazier or Futch, his opponent Muhammad Ali wanted to quit. Unlike Frazier who wanted to continue Ali was begging his trainer Angelo Dundee to cut his gloves off and was refusing to come out for the 15th round.
There is only one minute between rounds. Funny how just a minute can change a life. Dundee wouldn't let Ali quit, Futch made the decision for Frazier to quit and that decision still resonates throughout the world today.
HBO put on an outstanding Documentary recently about Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier title:
For once it tells a story about Muhammad Ali from another person's perspective and that perspective isn't a pretty one.
Jay Z "Ignorant Sh*t"
They're all actors
Looking at themselves in the mirror backwards
Can't even face themselves, don't fear no rappers
They're all weirdos, DeNiro's in Practice
So don't believe everything your earlobe captures
Its mostly backwards
Unless it happens to be as accurate as me
And everything said in song you happen to see
Then actually, believe half of what you see
None of what you hear even if its spat by me
And with that said, I will kill n*ggas dead
No one is as great as their biggest fan thinks and isn't as bad as their worse enemy believes. No truer words could be told about the legend that is Muhammad Ali. In some parts of the world Ali is considered a deity. In the United States he is an iconic figure. If there was a Mount Rushmore of American athletes over the last 100 years he would be right near the head of the list. He ranked #3 on ESPN list of the greatest athletes of all time. Many consider him the greatest boxer of all time. His cultural significance is still being felt today. His stand on the Vietnam War has been considered one of the turning points in getting public opinion turned against the war. Hell some people even think he created "rap music".
Jay Z:
Don't believe everything your earlobe captures / it's mostly backwards
There was another side to Ali a darker side to him that was mostly felt by one Joe Frazier.
Even though Ali is portrayed as a militant black power disciple he did not have to deal with half the racism and poverty that Joe Frazier had to deal with. Joe Frazier was born in Beaufort, South Carolina and lived in Philadelphia the majority of his life. Definitely not the life of a privilege.
Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali were friends. It can be argued that Frazier was one of his biggest supporters when Ali was stripped of his title for not enlisting in the Military.
How big of a supporter you ask?
Frazier petitioned President Nixon to have Ali's license reinstated. Frazier boycotted the 1967 WBA heavyweight elimination tournament to find a successor of Ali. Frazier when Ali was dead broke gave him money out of his pocket to help support him.
Jay Z:
"They're all actors
looking at themselves in the mirror backwards"
When you are an actor you do what you are told, you do as you are directed. As soon as Ali was reinstated he was directed by the Nation of Islam to turn his back on his friend. By all accounts Joe Frazier has always been and to this day is a "good guy". The type of guy that would give you the shirt off his back. But in life sometimes it is the person who talks the loudest who gets heard the most.
So when Ali spoke people listened. They listen to the names:
Joe Frazier is an uncle tom.
They listened to the accusations:
Joe Frazier is the white man's champion.
They listened to the hyperbole:
The heavyweight champion should be pretty not ugly like Joe Frazier.
Before the first Ali/Frazier fight Ali boasted if he lost he would crawl across the ring, bow to Frazier and call him "The Greatest". After getting his butt kicked by Frazier he left the arena and claimed he should have won.
Jay Z:
Unless it happens to be as accurate as me
And everything said in song you happen to see
Then actually, believe half of what you see
None of what you hear even if its spat by me
And with that said, I will kill n*ggas dead
This brings us to the Thrilla in Manila and let me show you how backwards our society can be at times. Ali at the time was revered while:
A- Calling another black man a Gorilla.
B- Having an affair in plain view of the entire world while his wife sat at home.
You don't call a black man a "Gorilla" ever especially a man who went to the President on your behalf. Not the city council, not the senator, not to ESPN (there wasn't an ESPN back then, but you get what I am saying), but the President of the United States and you are calling that man a "Gorilla" and an "Uncle Tom".
When Joe Frazier was fighting Ali that night. He wasn't fighting for the Heavyweight Championship he was fighting for his legacy, his good name and literally for his life.
This brings us back to the end of the 14th round:
"The direction of your life is dependent on the decisions you make or the decisions people make for you. In your lifetime you will have many fork in the road decisions some big, some small but whichever way you go you will always wonder what would have happened if you went the other way."
Ali wanted to quit. Frazier didn't. Someone made that decision for him. Ironic isn't it?
The iconic figure the one who did his friend wrong, the one that people idolize for his courage and conviction was the one who wanted to quit. The fighter who was blind in both eyes, who had been disrespected and ridiculed by a man he once befriended was willing to risk his life to save his life.
History remembers this moment as Ali lasting just a little bit longer than Frazier. It has added to his legend. As far a Frazier while still considered one of the greatest of all time his name will always be second to Ali not because of him, but because of someone else's decision.
Since watching the bitterness of Joe Frazier in the HBO Documentary including a very heartless voicemail where he proudly proclaims to be the cause of Ali's Parkinson disease a lot of people believe he should simply just get over it.
It is easy to say that, but just look at Frazier. He is living on top of a rundown gym in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia while Ali sold off 80% stake of his likeness and name for 50 million dollars. If Ali quits on his stool and Frazier wins does that change anything? I don't know, but I know if I was Frazier it will kill me inside not knowing and more importantly knowing that I wasn't the one who made the decision to throw in the towel.
Did Ali in the end reap what he sowed? Can't answer that either, but I find it ironic that he is most known for his gift of speaking and that is what has been taken from him. It does bother me that he has never apologized to Frazier in person face to face man to man. He was wrong and he has to know that.
Two great rivals and at one time two great friends it is sad if you think about it. In the HBO Documentary they showed Joe Frazier watching the Thrilla in Manila. You could almost see his mind traveling back in time. When it got to the end of the 14th round and he was watching himself beg and plead to go on you could see it clearly in his eyes.
You could see into his soul and his soul probably like it has every day for the last 24 years was burning.
This leads me back to the old drunken man at the bus stop. Eventually I got a car and started driving to school, but one of the last things he told me was:
"Son some fires you can never put out"
here go read this and learn ! - from balck sports writers too:
Muhammad Ali Owes Joe Frazier an Apology
By BonaFide Sports Expert Robert Littalon April 15, 2009 12:45 PM | Permalink | Comments (38) | TrackBacks (0)
I use to ride the city bus to High School many years ago. My mom use to drop me off at the bus stop early in the morning and I would have to wait for a few minutes before the bus came. There was a homeless drunk who use to hang out at the bus stop. He was a harmless old man, but he had a lot of philosophies about life that I remember to this day. One day he was telling me about the decisions you make in life and he said this:
"The direction of your life is dependent on the decisions you make or the decisions people make for you. In your lifetime you will have many fork in the road decisions some big, some small but whichever way you go you will always wonder what would have happened if you went the other way."
Joe Frazier October 1st 1975 Manila, Philippines end of the 14th round. Frazier already half blind in the left eye, right eye closed completely begs his trainer Eddie Futch to let him continue the fight. Watch the video and you see a battered and bruised Frazier saying "No" and "I want him Boss" as Futch is telling him he is stopping the fight. Unbeknown to Frazier or Futch, his opponent Muhammad Ali wanted to quit. Unlike Frazier who wanted to continue Ali was begging his trainer Angelo Dundee to cut his gloves off and was refusing to come out for the 15th round.
There is only one minute between rounds. Funny how just a minute can change a life. Dundee wouldn't let Ali quit, Futch made the decision for Frazier to quit and that decision still resonates throughout the world today.
HBO put on an outstanding Documentary recently about Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier title:
Thrilla in Manila: Time Tells a Different Story
For once it tells a story about Muhammad Ali from another person's perspective and that perspective isn't a pretty one.
Jay Z "Ignorant Sh*t"
They're all actors
Looking at themselves in the mirror backwards
Can't even face themselves, don't fear no rappers
They're all weirdos, DeNiro's in Practice
So don't believe everything your earlobe captures
Its mostly backwards
Unless it happens to be as accurate as me
And everything said in song you happen to see
Then actually, believe half of what you see
None of what you hear even if its spat by me
And with that said, I will kill n*ggas dead
No one is as great as their biggest fan thinks and isn't as bad as their worse enemy believes. No truer words could be told about the legend that is Muhammad Ali. In some parts of the world Ali is considered a deity. In the United States he is an iconic figure. If there was a Mount Rushmore of American athletes over the last 100 years he would be right near the head of the list. He ranked #3 on ESPN list of the greatest athletes of all time. Many consider him the greatest boxer of all time. His cultural significance is still being felt today. His stand on the Vietnam War has been considered one of the turning points in getting public opinion turned against the war. Hell some people even think he created "rap music".
Jay Z:
Don't believe everything your earlobe captures / it's mostly backwards
There was another side to Ali a darker side to him that was mostly felt by one Joe Frazier.
Even though Ali is portrayed as a militant black power disciple he did not have to deal with half the racism and poverty that Joe Frazier had to deal with. Joe Frazier was born in Beaufort, South Carolina and lived in Philadelphia the majority of his life. Definitely not the life of a privilege.
Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali were friends. It can be argued that Frazier was one of his biggest supporters when Ali was stripped of his title for not enlisting in the Military.
How big of a supporter you ask?
Frazier petitioned President Nixon to have Ali's license reinstated. Frazier boycotted the 1967 WBA heavyweight elimination tournament to find a successor of Ali. Frazier when Ali was dead broke gave him money out of his pocket to help support him.
Jay Z:
"They're all actors
looking at themselves in the mirror backwards"
When you are an actor you do what you are told, you do as you are directed. As soon as Ali was reinstated he was directed by the Nation of Islam to turn his back on his friend. By all accounts Joe Frazier has always been and to this day is a "good guy". The type of guy that would give you the shirt off his back. But in life sometimes it is the person who talks the loudest who gets heard the most.
So when Ali spoke people listened. They listen to the names:
Joe Frazier is an uncle tom.
They listened to the accusations:
Joe Frazier is the white man's champion.
They listened to the hyperbole:
The heavyweight champion should be pretty not ugly like Joe Frazier.
Before the first Ali/Frazier fight Ali boasted if he lost he would crawl across the ring, bow to Frazier and call him "The Greatest". After getting his butt kicked by Frazier he left the arena and claimed he should have won.
Jay Z:
Unless it happens to be as accurate as me
And everything said in song you happen to see
Then actually, believe half of what you see
None of what you hear even if its spat by me
And with that said, I will kill n*ggas dead
This brings us to the Thrilla in Manila and let me show you how backwards our society can be at times. Ali at the time was revered while:
A- Calling another black man a Gorilla.
B- Having an affair in plain view of the entire world while his wife sat at home.
You don't call a black man a "Gorilla" ever especially a man who went to the President on your behalf. Not the city council, not the senator, not to ESPN (there wasn't an ESPN back then, but you get what I am saying), but the President of the United States and you are calling that man a "Gorilla" and an "Uncle Tom".
When Joe Frazier was fighting Ali that night. He wasn't fighting for the Heavyweight Championship he was fighting for his legacy, his good name and literally for his life.
This brings us back to the end of the 14th round:
"The direction of your life is dependent on the decisions you make or the decisions people make for you. In your lifetime you will have many fork in the road decisions some big, some small but whichever way you go you will always wonder what would have happened if you went the other way."
Ali wanted to quit. Frazier didn't. Someone made that decision for him. Ironic isn't it?
The iconic figure the one who did his friend wrong, the one that people idolize for his courage and conviction was the one who wanted to quit. The fighter who was blind in both eyes, who had been disrespected and ridiculed by a man he once befriended was willing to risk his life to save his life.
History remembers this moment as Ali lasting just a little bit longer than Frazier. It has added to his legend. As far a Frazier while still considered one of the greatest of all time his name will always be second to Ali not because of him, but because of someone else's decision.
Since watching the bitterness of Joe Frazier in the HBO Documentary including a very heartless voicemail where he proudly proclaims to be the cause of Ali's Parkinson disease a lot of people believe he should simply just get over it.
It is easy to say that, but just look at Frazier. He is living on top of a rundown gym in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia while Ali sold off 80% stake of his likeness and name for 50 million dollars. If Ali quits on his stool and Frazier wins does that change anything? I don't know, but I know if I was Frazier it will kill me inside not knowing and more importantly knowing that I wasn't the one who made the decision to throw in the towel.
Did Ali in the end reap what he sowed? Can't answer that either, but I find it ironic that he is most known for his gift of speaking and that is what has been taken from him. It does bother me that he has never apologized to Frazier in person face to face man to man. He was wrong and he has to know that.
Two great rivals and at one time two great friends it is sad if you think about it. In the HBO Documentary they showed Joe Frazier watching the Thrilla in Manila. You could almost see his mind traveling back in time. When it got to the end of the 14th round and he was watching himself beg and plead to go on you could see it clearly in his eyes.
You could see into his soul and his soul probably like it has every day for the last 24 years was burning.
This leads me back to the old drunken man at the bus stop. Eventually I got a car and started driving to school, but one of the last things he told me was:
"Son some fires you can never put out"
Last edited:
How do you know about Ali's IQ score? Did you do the test yourself?
But anyway, I thought it was already known that intelligence is not only about being good at maths but also about how you can communicate and touch people and hit a nerve and if you say that Ali didn't have that, then..well....don't. Can't help you! Besides, there's a difference whether an athlete reaches people through sports/his game only or transcends sports and reaches even to those who don't give a fuck about boxing. Ali belongs to the second group. You can't just be a good athlete but unintelligent person and DO that. At least, there's not a single example of any person that was unintelligent but had charisma and could reach out to people beyond his sports (the one arguable person would be Diego but even he ain't really dumb..)
Like I said, you could say that he was not educated, bad mannered, a jackass, whatever...but to claim that he was dumb or not intelligent is you knocking yourself out....
Like with quoting a guy who didn't graduate from high school either
But anyway, I thought it was already known that intelligence is not only about being good at maths but also about how you can communicate and touch people and hit a nerve and if you say that Ali didn't have that, then..well....don't. Can't help you! Besides, there's a difference whether an athlete reaches people through sports/his game only or transcends sports and reaches even to those who don't give a fuck about boxing. Ali belongs to the second group. You can't just be a good athlete but unintelligent person and DO that. At least, there's not a single example of any person that was unintelligent but had charisma and could reach out to people beyond his sports (the one arguable person would be Diego but even he ain't really dumb..)
Like I said, you could say that he was not educated, bad mannered, a jackass, whatever...but to claim that he was dumb or not intelligent is you knocking yourself out....
Like with quoting a guy who didn't graduate from high school either
Last edited:
I am not sure about Ali's IQ and... but the ESPN special about the fight between Ali and Joe was pointing to what you said above.
Here is a link to some parts of it in You tube:
Part 1:
[video=youtube;NANLS0tn14M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANLS0tn14M[/video]
Part 2:
[video=youtube;LyeD2slndbM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyeD2slndbM&feature=related[/video]
Part 3:
[video=youtube;bgMkrWGLkJ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMkrWGLkJ4&feature=related[/video]
Part 4:
[video=youtube;8IbTi9ZUPbE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IbTi9ZUPbE&feature=related[/video]
Part 5:
[video=youtube;kzyJPpIzQYQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyJPpIzQYQ&feature=related[/video]
Part 6:
[video=youtube;NNcXHpbsfjU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNcXHpbsfjU&feature=related[/video]
Part 7:
[video=youtube;hUjBOgZxbao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUjBOgZxbao&feature=related[/video]
Part 8:
[video=youtube;4lUdtrLMcW8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lUdtrLMcW8&feature=related[/video]
Part 9:
[video=youtube;7fOibG3aL2k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fOibG3aL2k&feature=related[/video]
Here is a link to some parts of it in You tube:
Part 1:
[video=youtube;NANLS0tn14M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANLS0tn14M[/video]
Part 2:
[video=youtube;LyeD2slndbM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyeD2slndbM&feature=related[/video]
Part 3:
[video=youtube;bgMkrWGLkJ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMkrWGLkJ4&feature=related[/video]
Part 4:
[video=youtube;8IbTi9ZUPbE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IbTi9ZUPbE&feature=related[/video]
Part 5:
[video=youtube;kzyJPpIzQYQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyJPpIzQYQ&feature=related[/video]
Part 6:
[video=youtube;NNcXHpbsfjU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNcXHpbsfjU&feature=related[/video]
Part 7:
[video=youtube;hUjBOgZxbao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUjBOgZxbao&feature=related[/video]
Part 8:
[video=youtube;4lUdtrLMcW8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lUdtrLMcW8&feature=related[/video]
Part 9:
[video=youtube;7fOibG3aL2k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fOibG3aL2k&feature=related[/video]