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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Strangemoosh View Post
    Medicine at Cambridge. I think my dad and her dad would have got on though, my pops is a Dawkinsian atheist. I'm more just agnostic (you can't be sure of anything in this world, so who knows there might be a God/yahweh/allah/flying spaghetti monster, who are we to say...)
    You know his daughter, but it appears that you have not listened to him much or read his books. You should do that. Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 in terms of whether God exists or not. 1 is God exists and 7 is God does not exist. He put himself as 6 or 6.5. I am not sure what you mean by atheist and agnostic. Those are just terms. Dawkins does not say that God does not exist. He says there is no evidence to point to that but he cannot for sure say that God does not exist, but he is also 6 or 6.5 regarding fairies, etc. Are you saying that you see some evidence, and you are more like 4-5 on the scale? If so, can you share that evidence?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahdi View Post
    I'm glad Dawkins did something right in his life.
    Not sure if you are trying to be funny or not, but I think he has done a lot more right by humanity than Mohammad, Ali, Jesus, Bahaollah, etc.

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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    You know his daughter, but it appears that you have not listened to him much or read his books. You should do that. Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 in terms of whether God exists or not. 1 is God exists and 7 is God does not exist. He put himself as 6 or 6.5. I am not sure what you mean by atheist and agnostic. Those are just terms. Dawkins does not say that God does not exist. He says there is no evidence to point to that but he cannot for sure say that God does not exist, but he is also 6 or 6.5 regarding fairies, etc. Are you saying that you see some evidence, and you are more like 4-5 on the scale? If so, can you share that evidence?
    and hitchens, from a more philosophical point of view, disagreed with and he was a 7000 on that scale, stating that:
    "the burden is believers to prove something imaginary exists. Since there are absolutely no evidence of existence of this human figment of imagination called god, i have no burden to proof its non existence"

    Dawkins goes a step further, allowing believers some leeway, saying there are strong evidence that what you conceive as god does not exist but i am not a 100% sure.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    and hitchens, from a more philosophical point of view, disagreed with and he was a 7000 on that scale, stating that:
    "the burden is believers to prove something imaginary exists. Since there are absolutely no evidence of existence of this human figment of imagination called god, i have no burden to proof its non existence"

    Dawkins goes a step further, allowing believers some leeway, saying there are strong evidence that what you conceive as god does not exist but i am not a 100% sure.
    That's right. Dawkins takes a scientific view that nothing is absolute. Therefore, he says he cannot say that God does not exist or did not exist absolutely. That's why I was wondering what the definition of agnostic is. Is it 50-50? I am just waiting for the Dr.'s answer as to how he defines himself on the scale. Sometimes people want to have both sides and call themselves agnostic, but to me, 50-50 makes no sense.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    You know his daughter, but it appears that you have not listened to him much or read his books. You should do that. Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 in terms of whether God exists or not. 1 is God exists and 7 is God does not exist. He put himself as 6 or 6.5. I am not sure what you mean by atheist and agnostic. Those are just terms. Dawkins does not say that God does not exist. He says there is no evidence to point to that but he cannot for sure say that God does not exist, but he is also 6 or 6.5 regarding fairies, etc. Are you saying that you see some evidence, and you are more like 4-5 on the scale? If so, can you share that evidence?
    "It appears that you have not listened to him much or read his books".

    To mirror your own comment: Can you share that evidence that it appears I have not listened to him much?
    How the heck have you got that out of my post apart from your own (wrong) speculation?

    I know Dawkins' scale very well, and a true Atheist, I believe, is seven on it.

    1 - Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
    2- De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
    3 - Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
    4 -Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
    5 - Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
    6 - De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
    7 - Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

    If you want my self-rating then I am about 5-6 and I don't have much evidence either way. Also, I believe rating systems for things like this is garbage, and less useful than terms such as atheist and agnostic, you obviously disagree which is fine, but don't go making statements out of the ether. I really like Dawkins, but Hitchens has him in his pocket in terms of really being able to convince people, and using a pseudo-science rating system isn't one of his strongest suits.

    So there you go.
    Last edited by Dr Strangemoosh; 20-04-2017 at 07:53 PM.

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  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post

    نمیدونم چرا انقدر بهت برخورد وقتی گفتم شیعه اگنوستیک نمیشناسم مرتیکه لجن؟! من لجن ها رو از چند فرسخی تشخیص میدم و تو همیشه لجن بودی. لجنی که عین همین پروفسور مور جاکش یه دفعه در دفاع از شیعه گری یه مطلبی پست کرده بودی. البته تو که پخی نیستی, تو کون نشور دست راست و چپتم نمیتونی از هم تشخیص بدی. بدبخت مکتبی که تو بیسواد بخوای ازش دفاع کنی. تو همون بیسوادی هستی که اومدی گفتی, واسه تو لجن واقعیت ارزشی نداره اگه از زبون فلان کس و بسار کس گفته بشه! یه همچین موجودی در حد حیوون هم ارزش نداره. کسی که حاضر باشه بشاشه به واقعیت فقط چون از دهنی در میاد که دوسش نداره. خاک عالم تو و سرت کنن, مرتیکه حقیر
    دیگه هم نبینم حرفای گنده تر از دهنت بزنی, کون نشوره ان دماغو.


    As Richard Dawkins invented the meme, it would be rude not to...
    Last edited by Dr Strangemoosh; 20-04-2017 at 07:52 PM.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    You know his daughter, but it appears that you have not listened to him much or read his books. You should do that. Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 in terms of whether God exists or not. 1 is God exists and 7 is God does not exist. He put himself as 6 or 6.5. I am not sure what you mean by atheist and agnostic. Those are just terms. Dawkins does not say that God does not exist. He says there is no evidence to point to that but he cannot for sure say that God does not exist, but he is also 6 or 6.5 regarding fairies, etc. Are you saying that you see some evidence, and you are more like 4-5 on the scale? If so, can you share that evidence?
    What makes you think those so called "scales" are the norm everyone should compare themselves to? What sets the percentage for you or even for Dawkins? Scientific calculation? Evidence? Feeling?

    *Your love makes me strong. Your hate makes me unstoppable!
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  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sly View Post
    What makes you think those so called "scales" are the norm everyone should compare themselves to? What sets the percentage for you or even for Dawkins? Scientific calculation? Evidence? Feeling?
    he didn't think it.
    he is quoting Dawkins.

    Everything that means 'anything' in this world should be measured on a scale, quantified and proved. That is the essence of atheism or agnosticism.

    Everything to do with provable evidence and nothing to do with feeling.
    Go back to the original post and you see the three categories that have swerved human mind away from reality and in the realm of superstition and dream world.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    he didn't think it.

    Everything that means 'anything' in this world should be measured on a scale, quantified and proved. That is the essence of atheism or agnosticism.
    Not necessarily, we have two branches of research and study in Science and Medicine: Quantitative and Qualitative. One deals with scales, quantification and the other avoids it with a bargepole. Both are important and ignoring one over the other is done at your peril.

    Putting scores on how much you believe in fairytales might be useful for some, for others it isn't particularly great. As you yourself have hinted, Dawkins and Hitchens disagree on this, so I'm surprised of your comment. I think you're just being antagonist towards Sly in this comment because he likes Bollywood and Branco.

    Do you yourself believe that it really is a useful exercise to put points on how much you believe in Allah, Mother Goose or Scarlett Johansson's breasts?

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Strangemoosh View Post
    Not necessarily, we have two branches of research and study in Science and Medicine: Quantitative and Qualitative. Both are important and ignoring one over the other is done at your peril.

    Putting scores on how much you believe in fairytales might be useful for some, for others it isn't particularly great. As you yourself have hinted, Dawkins and Hitchens disagree on this, so I'm surprised of your comment. I think you're just being antagonist towards Sly in this comment because he likes Bollywood and Branco.

    Do you yourself believe that it really is a useful exercise to put points on how much you believe in Allah, Mother Goose or Scarlett Johansson's breasts?
    I have no idea that i come across as antagonistic in this particular paragraph. I do have to say though I never speak or write (in this case) to win popularity contests.

    I don't believe someone finding my comments or my thoughts offensive assert them to be less true.

    Obviously one has a conscience and does not go to his grand mother: "oh by the way nana you ll die soon" but when in a debate or whilst sharing ideas i try to be crystal clear about stuff i know and when i don't know instead of trying to win a popularity contest by swerving away from the topic i just keep quiet.

    With regards to this issue i am not sure putting a score on how much someone believes in fairytales is possible but what is meant by Dawkins scale (or at least how it comes across to me) is really to somehow distinguish between agnostics and atheists.

    To be an absolute atheist you will have to prove that god does not exist.

    I don't feel that necessity since no one HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO ABSOLUTELY PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS.
    (i mean gut feelings, inner voices, LDS trips, syphilis inflicted fevers aside)
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  13. #26
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    as i have been talking to you guys i scripted 1200 lines of python.

    i tell you 1200 because it is counted in my IDE or i can run a count script. if i told you while we were talking i did 'some' python, you should say what do you mean some?
    i would say well you know my gut feeling tells me i did some python.

    you need to put things on a scale, especially when comparing two ideas.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    he didn't think it.
    he is quoting Dawkins.
    Wasn't that the whole point of your thread? To think yourself critically instead of quoting others?

    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    Everything that means 'anything' in this world should be measured on a scale, quantified and proved. That is the essence of atheism or agnosticism.
    and who should be measuring the scale and do the quantification? Dawkins is a person with his own ideas. He put down his ideas in a book. Believing or disbelieving in god, is nothing you can prove by any calculated percentage which means everyone will have to have their own ideas about it! Dawkins put up a quantification based on his own experiences, theories and what he sees. Not based on proved mathematical formulas.

    and the same thinking should go to his whole book when you read it! The book only describes his ideas. You might find his ideas to be similar to yours and then again, you might not! You can not post a thread on him and try to discuss about his book as if it was a scientifically proven fact!

    *Your love makes me strong. Your hate makes me unstoppable!
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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    as i have been talking to you guys i scripted 1200 lines of python.

    i tell you 1200 because it is counted in my IDE or i can run a count script. if i told you while we were talking i did 'some' python, you should say what do you mean some?
    i would say well you know my gut feeling tells me i did some python.

    you need to put things on a scale, especially when comparing two ideas.
    Just to repeat myself again, in science and medicine we have quantitative and qualitative study. Both are important.

    Your coding python can only be done with numbers and figures i.e quantitative.

    Attitudes to God/flying spaghetti monster/Salma Hayek's puppies might not lend itself to quantitative analysis. Dawkins has his scale. Others don't.

    I don't see why this is hard to understand, but am happy to say it a third time.

  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    excerpt from a conversation Richard Dawkings had with his 10 year old daughter probably sometime in the early 90s ...


    topics:
    critical thinking, insistence upon evidence defines thinking


    next time someone says something to you that sounds important, think to yourself, is this the kind of thing people know because of evidence, or, the kind of thing that people believe because of tradition, authority, or revelation !


    Also, next time somebody tells you something is true, why not ask them what kind of evidence do you have for that? and if they don't give you a good answer, I hope, you think very carefully before you believe a word they say.


    he mentions that : 'I was trying to tell her 'how' to think about certain things, not 'what' to think, but 'how' to think. And I was tryhing to encourage her to always to demand evidence, so we know something only if there is evidence for it.


    he adds: 'I was also trying to warn her against various wrong ways of thinking, that are based on:
    - tradition, for example 'our people' have always believed X so you have to believe X
    - authority, professor such and such, or priest such and such, believe X so you should also believe x or finally
    - revelation, I have this inner conviction X is true so you should believe it to be true too


    you should only believe it when there is evidence for it.
    I am not going to lie I need to study more on Dawking I know who he is Richard Dawkins but thank you for giving me the background now I will study some more.

    Chinaski what is a Shia agnoistic I know what it means but I mean I never met one in my entire life. You cannot be on both sides of the bed so I get what you are saying but I can tell you who are legit Keyvan Pars jan does not like that stuff I can tell you that much right now. I believe Dr is in the same boat and you KNOW my feelings to it so some of us get it. I need to now read some articles and I know he was an Englishman in Nairobi which was one of the cities I visited in the miltiary, amogst many ie khartoom, mogadishu just to name a few and I went to some places my own Messer, Kenya/Tanzania Uganda, Marakesh so I am well versed in North Africa, Horn of Africa, Sahara and sub sahara Afrikan culture T.I.A. Thank you guys, you are helping me GROW as an individual, Chinaski you too, you inspired me to read and study Das Kapital and Manifesto so I can know more about what you are talking about and I do now. There is no bolshevik anymore with this komrade(don't believe in isms) but I am who I am and I have a very diverse Euro family like most typical Amerikanski boyz.
    Last edited by TeamMeli; 21-04-2017 at 02:17 AM.

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Strangemoosh View Post
    "It appears that you have not listened to him much or read his books".

    To mirror your own comment: Can you share that evidence that it appears I have not listened to him much.
    You called him an atheist. That was the evidence. He goes with a scale rather than the term. You also called yourself agnostic, so I could not figure how you define that term. I find explanation and scale better define one's ideas rather than throwing labels that have many definitions. One more thing, I am not here to win arguments. You guys don't want to use the Dawkin's scale, so be it. But this is a thread about him and I find his scale useful.

    So, to continue the discussion, what makes you to be 5-6 if Dawkins is at 6.5.

 

 

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