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  1. #61
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    OK. Since Meehandoost is not providing a straight answer, I am going to provide this answer from Bahaiteachings.org.

    http://bahaiteachings.org/is-the-bahai-faith-islam-lite

    "One upfront caveat, however: I make no claim to any erudite scholarship in this area. I’ve been a Baha’i for almost fifty years, and as a Baha’i I’ve studied all of the major global Faiths including Islam—but I do not possess a great deal of scholarly expertise in Islamic theology, jurisprudence and law. Hopefully, those who do will weigh in as we publish the articles in this series, and contribute to the dialogue.

    I will say, however, that I have great respect for all the Muslims I know, and as a Baha’i I believe Muhammad was a prophet of God and the Qur’an a Holy Book. I love and respect Muhammad and his teachings, as all Baha’is do.

    That’s because Baha’u’llah—who came from a Muslim background, just as Christ came from a Jewish heritage—specifically honored Muhammad and his teachings. Baha’is see Islam as the parent religion of their Faith, in the same way Judaism gave birth to Christianity. Since Baha’u’llah’s teachings emerged from a Muslim culture and its mystical Sufi belief system, the Baha’i Faith and Islam have some similarities—they both believe in one God, in the validity and exalted station of the religions that came before, and in the sacred nature of the human soul. However, the Baha’i Faith differs significantly from Islam, especially as Islam is practiced today. Let’s take a look, in a general way, at those similarities and differences. First, the Baha’i teachings say that the “whole world” should “acknowledge the greatness of Muhammad and all the Heaven-sent Teachers:

    So, as far as I know, and what we have above, Bahaie's do accept Mohammad as a prophet and accept Quran as a holy book, etc. They have my respect as individuals, but I have no respect for their ideas.

  2. #62
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    Guys, please keep in mind that there are other things going on in people's lives other than this forum; plus it's only been 24 hours!!

    At any rate, Keyvan jaan, I already gave an answer. The prime directive of this world is freedom to choose, even the choice to accept or deny God. If God directed everything then there would be no merit in anything we do. There may be worlds like that where we grow spiritually based on God's mercy alone, but that world is not this one. In this world we grow based on our own actions and their merit. The same way that you correctly take issue with some and say that there is no savior who is going to come and fix everything, but we have to do it; I'm afraid the same applies here. We grow based on our actions, and so do others. Unfortunately one becomes an oppressive tyrant, and one becomes a cause of fellowship and unity; all is within our grasp. Of course God will deal with both to punish or reward them in His own way and time, spiritually (not zeros in their bank account)! I hope it clarifies the issue. This is what Baha'i faith teaches. Those that confess their faith to Baha'ullah know this and have accepted it. Baha'is become Baha'is not to reach salvation or improve their own lives, rather to improve the lives of all people.

    Ardesheer jaan (love that name by the way!), of course Baha'is accept Muhammad to have been a messenger of God, and Quran the holy book that he brought for that time and its challenges, as they do with Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddha. However, Baha'is are not Muslims, or a branch of it. They accept and honor each messenger of God in the context of his time. They do not practice, nor condone or accept many Islamic social teachings as they have been abrogated by Bábi teachings and again by Baha'u'llah who adopted some of the Bábi teachings and changed others. Baha'is believe that all revelations (religions) are like various chapters of one divine book; they are all related but also independent. They are like lamps that carry the divine light in them for a period. With time the light is transferred from one lamp to the next. We must be followers of the light not the lamp.

    At the same time, to judge Islamic teachings by today's standards is as wrong as trying to still practice them, because they were not meant to endure beyond the next revelation. No revelation, including the Baha'i faith, is forever. Religious truths are relative not absolute. The only absolute truth according to Baha'i teachings is God Himself, all other things, including religious truths are relative and temporary because they have been brought for humanity. As humanity grows and evolves, so too its needs for spiritual education. We can debate forever about Islamic teachings and their benefit, but when one believes that Islamic laws have been abrogated and no longer applicable to our time and its challenges, there is no point. This was one of the many religious truths that the Báb elucidated, the end of Days or Qiamat, He mentioned that it simply was the end of one dispensation and the coming of a new manifestation and dispensation by Whose teachings the spiritually dead would be resurrected and their faith renewed. I hope it is clear, but I am happy to elaborate further if you wish.
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meehandoost View Post
    Guys, please keep in mind that there are other things going on in people's lives other than this forum; plus it's only been 24 hours!!

    Ardesheer jaan (love that name by the way!), of course Baha'is accept Muhammad to have been a messenger of God, and Quran the holy book that he brought for that time and its challenges, as they do with Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddha. However, Baha'is are not Muslims, or a branch of it. They accept and honor each messenger of God in the context of his time. They do not practice, nor condone or accept many Islamic social teachings as they have been abrogated by Bábi teachings and again by Baha'u'llah who adopted some of the Bábi teachings and changed others. Baha'is believe that all revelations (religions) are like various chapters of one divine book; they are all related but also independent. They are like lamps that carry the divine light in them for a period. With time the light is transferred from one lamp to the next. We must be followers of the light not the lamp.

    At the same time, to judge Islamic teachings by today's standards is as wrong as trying to still practice them, because they were not meant to endure beyond the next revelation. No revelation, including the Baha'i faith, is forever. Religious truths are relative not absolute. The only absolute truth according to Baha'i teachings is God Himself, all other things, including religious truths are relative and temporary because they have been brought for humanity. As humanity grows and evolves, so too its needs for spiritual education. We can debate forever about Islamic teachings and their benefit, but when one believes that Islamic laws have been abrogated and no longer applicable to our time and its challenges, there is no point. This was one of the many religious truths that the Báb elucidated, the end of Days or Qiamat, He mentioned that it simply was the end of one dispensation and the coming of a new manifestation and dispensation by Whose teachings the spiritually dead would be resurrected and their faith renewed. I hope it is clear, but I am happy to elaborate further if you wish.
    I know Baha'is are not Muslims. Same as Muslims not being Christians but accepting Jesus and Moses. My point is that I do not accept the proposition that Mohammad was a good person at all. It has nothing to do with the time e was living in. Murder was not acceptable at the time of Mohammad, and many other things that he did, let alone the fact that you should expect more from a person who claims to be a messenger of God, rather than justifying his actions for his time. How come others at his time and place were more civil than him? I just wanted it to make clear that, and I understand you agree 100%, Bahai's believe that Mohammad was a prophet, and Quran is the word of God. If this were not the case, I might have looked at Bahai religion for more info, but it will be a waste of time, since it has a fundamental issue in my eyes for the reasons above.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    I know Baha'is are not Muslims. Same as Muslims not being Christians but accepting Jesus and Moses. My point is that I do not accept the proposition that Mohammad was a good person at all. It has nothing to do with the time e was living in. Murder was not acceptable at the time of Mohammad, and many other things that he did, let alone the fact that you should expect more from a person who claims to be a messenger of God, rather than justifying his actions for his time. How come others at his time and place were more civil than him? I just wanted it to make clear that, and I understand you agree 100%, Bahai's believe that Mohammad was a prophet, and Quran is the word of God. If this were not the case, I might have looked at Bahai religion for more info, but it will be a waste of time, since it has a fundamental issue in my eyes for the reasons above.
    asan mohammad was a beautiful, peaceful person.
    didn't he say to submit to allah. that makes him a delusional good person. he thrived to create more slaves (by more i mean to add to the ranks of already slaved christians and jews before the new recruits of heaven).

    plain slavery, with shackled, masters and plantations.

    I wonder if Iranians have a case of suing ISLAM in the international court in the Hague. If jews can get money out of Germany for holocaust why can't Iranians get money out of KINGDOM OF HEYVOON ARABIA for islam (Iranian holocaust)
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    I know Baha'is are not Muslims. Same as Muslims not being Christians but accepting Jesus and Moses. My point is that I do not accept the proposition that Mohammad was a good person at all. It has nothing to do with the time e was living in. Murder was not acceptable at the time of Mohammad, and many other things that he did, let alone the fact that you should expect more from a person who claims to be a messenger of God, rather than justifying his actions for his time. How come others at his time and place were more civil than him? I just wanted it to make clear that, and I understand you agree 100%, Bahai's believe that Mohammad was a prophet, and Quran is the word of God. If this were not the case, I might have looked at Bahai religion for more info, but it will be a waste of time, since it has a fundamental issue in my eyes for the reasons above.
    Ardesheer jaan, I understand your point and it's not the first time I've heard it. To be honest, I had to reflect on your point before I could make comments on it. I do agree with you that Iranians and others in the area of different beliefs were wronged. Even to this day the mere notion of mentioning this is likely to garner some ill will from some people. Many have issues with Islam or their treatment by Muslims, but come to accept it in the context of its time through Baha'i writings and teachings. They choose to focus on the future as opposed to the past. Some recognition of these facts are needed to help heal the historical wounds and divide. Perhaps the appearance of two manifestations in such close succession in Iran is a reconciliation in itself. At the same time, Iran was immersed in the dark abyss of dogma and superstition. The religious elite and royals lived in luxury and ease while people were oppressed and in the dark. These revelations freed them.

    Also, keep in mind that accepting Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for today is a spiritual and personal journey that one must make by oneself. At the same time, one need not become a Baha'i to put its teachings and principles in practice. Baha'i teachings envision a federation of united countries under secular governance, with a world government, world tribunal to settle disputes among nations, one auxiliary language and script that all must learn in addition to their native tongue for better understanding and communication, all of which will unify and pacify the nations. This is possible if all acknowledge their oneness as one people, their interdependence which is becoming increasingly more evident every day through economics ties, environmental issues, and safety and security. One nation can no longer prosper alone while others languish in abject poverty. We are one and our fate is one. Baha'i teachings also tell us about our personal journeys and our contribution to that collective peace and prosperity, through universal education of girls and boys, equality of men and women, service to one another and considering work done in the spirit of service as worship to God, eliminating extremes of wealth and poverty, harmony of religion with science and logic, all of which will help us become world citizens not only tolerating but accepting one another. This is not only possible, but inevitable as we see forces of unity coalesce people together and we can all become agents of hope and progress and come together to build that future.
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


  6. #66
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    I appreciate your respectful responses. I have no problem with some of the ideas that you/Bahia's have put forward. I think they are ideas that should be debated, discussed, modified, improved and may be implemented among goods ideas from others. However, my point is that these ideas should not be treated as being from God. These are ideas are just by another or other human beings. My problem with religions (including Bahai religion) is that they are all fake (with respect to Bhaie religion at least based on the fact that they believe Mohammad was a prophet,) and they believe their ideas are from God and the best ideas. The followers of these religions cannot accept any other ideas, because they think their ideas are from God. So, what's the point of having a debate with them, because they do not come with an open mind. Have you found any issues or problems with any ideas from your prophet? Any disagreements you have with them? Even a single one? Any verse of Quran or your holly book that you disagree with, even in the context of its own time? For example, when Quran says cut opposite arm and leg, and throw off the roof as punishment, any issue with that even for 1,400 years ago? Has Bahai religion changed Hell as described in Quran? What do you think about burning people in Hell, and then grow skin, and burn again. That's not in the context of time, but that's how Hell is described in Quran, and how could the next prophet change Hell?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    I appreciate your respectful responses. I have no problem with some of the ideas that you/Bahia's have put forward. I think they are ideas that should be debated, discussed, modified, improved and may be implemented among goods ideas from others. However, my point is that these ideas should not be treated as being from God. These are ideas are just by another or other human beings. My problem with religions (including Bahai religion) is that they are all fake (with respect to Bhaie religion at least based on the fact that they believe Mohammad was a prophet,) and they believe their ideas are from God and the best ideas. The followers of these religions cannot accept any other ideas, because they think their ideas are from God. So, what's the point of having a debate with them, because they do not come with an open mind. Have you found any issues or problems with any ideas from your prophet? Any disagreements you have with them? Even a single one? Any verse of Quran or your holly book that you disagree with, even in the context of its own time? For example, when Quran says cut opposite arm and leg, and throw off the roof as punishment, any issue with that even for 1,400 years ago? Has Bahai religion changed Hell as described in Quran? What do you think about burning people in Hell, and then grow skin, and burn again. That's not in the context of time, but that's how Hell is described in Quran, and how could the next prophet change Hell?
    Ardesheer jaan,

    You have raised some good questions and I share my understanding.

    I do agree that there should be open forums for debates and discussions to determine the best solutions for the challenges of our time. Any group, ideology or individual can put forward their ideas into that debate and discussion and let the "spark of truth come forward from the clash of differing opinions." Although Baha'i teachings are divine from the perspective of Baha'is, others can weigh them against their logic and reason and accept them if they feel they apply to our challenges. For instance in Iran too, Baha'is want to be included in the national discourse and deliberation, as they are in the international community and involved in most social initiatives and programs.

    I do have issues with many Islamic teachings and verses in the Quran, for instance use of force, punishment of infidels and apostates, the veil and treatment of women in general, the clergy, vilifying people of other beliefs, etc.; because I know they are out of date. Although spiritual core of all religions is the same, their social teachings and their understanding is different and evolves from one revelation to the next. As humans evolve, so too their capacity and understanding. That doesn't make previous teachings wrong or bad, but simply out of date. For instance, there comes a point in mathematics that 1+1=0, that doesn't make 1+1=2 wrong, rather obsolete if the discussion is binary system. Or if Microsoft sends a new version of Windows, it doesn't make previous versions wrong or sinister, rather out of date. At the same time, some of those old subroutines may still be part of the new program. The language is the same, the author is the same, etc.

    And of course one must always introspect and investigate the truth for oneself in order to attain certitude about one's beliefs, otherwise it would become superstition and dogma. One should always keep an open mind and in the fairness of one's own heart weigh the evidence, be fair in judgement and guarded in one's speech and expression. One must also weigh one's own actions bearing in mind that Spiritual truths are the most hidden of the hidden and the most manifest of the manifest!

    As for the notion of heaven and hell, in the old days it had to be explained in a way that would be possible for people of the time to understand. However, as I mentioned before it has been elucidated in the Baha'i faith to be a spiritual station not a physical place. This is due to maturity of humanity that is now capable of understanding such deep spiritual truths. Divine revelations come for spiritual education of humanity and therefore their truths are spiritual and not to be taken literally. Therefore, in the Baha'i concept, heaven is a high spiritual station of living in the good pleasure of our Creator, and hell is being spiritually far from Him. They are both spiritual stations not physical places. Likewise, Qiyamat (or resurrection) is not a one time event when all the dead get to walk the face of the earth again, rather it is meant to be the coming of a new Messenger of God whereby He quickens the spiritually dead and the spiritually blind through His teachings and precepts.

    In previous dispensations these deep spiritual truths were often told by stories and parables that people could understand and relate to. They were not meant to endure forever, but only to the End of Days, which is the end of the time of one revelation and the coming of the next. God's creativity is endless and He will continue to guide and educate humanity forever as we evolve and our comprehension and challenges change. The relationship between the creator and His creatures is endless, it has no beginning and no end. There is not going to be any zombie attacks, no end of the planet scenario, life will go on, God's creation and creativity will go on forever. None of us are that special who's end will mean the end of humanity!
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


 

 
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