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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    This misses the point that the major issue in Iran is Islam, and in particular Shie Islam. Bahism is just another religion, and its followers have been victims of the Islamic government. You are ignoring the religion that has been and is the source of all the problems in Iran, and focusing on a non-issue. Even, as you say, Bahism is based on Islam. So, go to the root, which is Islam. Once you show Islam is BS, and its followers have ruined the country, any off shoot of Islam is also gone.
    I don't know exactly what you mean by saying that the Baha'i faith is based on Islam, but religions do not grow out of nothingness and in a vacuum. Some take religions to be COMPETING ideologies offering different solutions, whereas they are COMPLEMENTARY such as chapters of a book that share a fundamental spiritual core, but necessarily bring new social teachings speaking to the challenges of the time.

    Such sweeping statements that they are all the same are not founded in facts, conducive to meaningful dialogue and growth or helpful.
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meehandoost View Post
    I don't know exactly what you mean by saying that the Baha'i faith is based on Islam, but religions do not grow out of nothingness and in a vacuum. Some take religions to be COMPETING ideologies offering different solutions, whereas they are COMPLEMENTARY such as chapters of a book that share a fundamental spiritual core, but necessarily bring new social teachings speaking to the challenges of the time.

    Such sweeping statements that they are all the same are not founded in facts, conducive to meaningful dialogue and growth or helpful.
    What I mean is that Bahai's accept Mohammad as a prophet, and Quran as a holy book. There are many religions that have nothing to do Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. Bahiaism has its lineage there. You tell me, do you accept Mohammad as a prophet, and Quran as a holy book?

  3. #33
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    with all due respect i refuse to get into theological discussions with anyone.
    i thanked kp in the last page since that's the first time he said something
    that actually made sense.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardesheer View Post
    What I mean is that Bahai's accept Mohammad as a prophet, and Quran as a holy book. There are many religions that have nothing to do Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. Bahiaism has its lineage there. You tell me, do you accept Mohammad as a prophet, and Quran as a holy book?
    Baha'is believe in all past dispensations including Islam, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. one not more than the other, in the context of their time and that they all brought guidance relevant to its challenges. Baha'is also believe that all humans have received divine guidance in one shape or form including the aboriginals. At the same time, Baha'is believe that Islam and its teachings have been abrogated by the coming of the Báb and then Baha'u'llah. This is why it is an independent "religion" with its own teachings and principles. Baha'i teachings are the reason for the persecution of its followers in its birthplace more than anywhere else. Those who paint the Baha'i faith with the same brush as they do the clerical cast that has persecuted it for centuries, only do so to their own detriment, detriment of being deprived the truth. This is the tool of the mullahs: fallacies, suspicions, mistrust and prejudice to condition the people against investigating the truth for themselves.
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


  5. #35
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    Although a little off on the details, fairly objective and independent look on the teachings of the Báb:
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meehandoost View Post
    That's a big assumption, and exactly WHAT are Baha'is doing in Israel you think? I'm interested in facts.
    isn't their main temple or mosque ... isn't their vatican in Haifa ?

    who paid to build that ? magic, british empire, gift from god or bahais from all over the world donated money ?
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meehandoost View Post
    I don't know exactly what you mean by saying that the Baha'i faith is based on Islam, but religions do not grow out of nothingness and in a vacuum. Some take religions to be COMPETING ideologies offering different solutions, whereas they are COMPLEMENTARY such as chapters of a book that share a fundamental spiritual core, but necessarily bring new social teachings speaking to the challenges of the time.

    Such sweeping statements that they are all the same are not founded in facts, conducive to meaningful dialogue and growth or helpful.
    you are absolutely wrong.

    Religions are UTTERLY based on nothingness and vacuum.

    why does bahai god allow his children to be persecuted by shit-e s ?

    when i was a child in tehran and i went grocery shopping with my mom the idiot grocer used to wipe the fruit after my mom touched it because they believed bahais like my mom are untouchable. why did your god allow innocent bahais to be persecuted and in many cases killed ?

    i pose the same question to any other people who believe in religion and god ? what the fuck is your god while your people suffer ? does he / she like seeing his flock getting tortured and persecuted ? is it like a show for him ?

    come on pull the other one ...

    just another racket. like christians, jews, muslims, etc etc ... another money making machines for some people to get fat on money donated by monkeys. wake up people.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arash_Tombangir View Post
    ......right, that's a highly hypothetical question?
    I am interested to know if you would accept to set up for a reconciliation with these IRI-bastards if you a beautiful day giving the chance to take the power in your land of origin?
    reconciliation means no civil war. no anarchy. try to keep whatever of the infrastructure that is left.
    it doesn't mean that a single guilty person should go free.

    having said that just because someone is a member of IRGC and/or bassij he cannot be summarily persecuted and punished. they are iranians like the rest of us.

    Any person that based on evidence (oral, written, media, fb) has harmed any iranians should be put on trial with public being allowed to attend and be prosecuted to the letter of the law. Secular law not islamic.

    and ABSOLUTELY NO DEATH PENALTY. They need to sit in prison cells and talk to psychiatrists and the results of these sessions should be published in journals so the nation of iran will never forget what islamic revolution did to them.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    isn't their main temple or mosque ... isn't their vatican in Haifa ?

    who paid to build that ? magic, british empire, gift from god or bahais from all over the world donated money ?
    Baha'is of the world have paid to gradually buy the lands and build those buildings. As a matter of general practice, Baha'is do not accept donations from Non-Baha'is. Surely you know that Baha'is were forced there in exile into that area by the Islamic rulers of the time...

    As for persecution, it is not God that causes persecution rather angry mobs who follow their mullahs blindly with prejudice, as they still do. The thing about prejudice is that it makes the person blind to reason that for instance long after they have stopped following the mullahs, they still seem to be influenced on a sub-conscious level by the same shibboleth and incantations that have been breathed into them by the same clerical cast.

    For instance, mullahs for long have fed people about Baha'is being spies of this and that, and now they say the same things about the people that have risen to claim their freedom and dignity, yet some still believe it.

    The other sad thing is that if some finally have discovered that mullahs are religious charlatans, then all religions must be bad, even those that for nearly two centuries mullahs have tried to keep a secret from the people. If Baha'is were so bad and their teachings were so bad, wouldn't it make sense to let them speak it so people can see it once and for all, for themselves?

    Now, never mind what your mother believed and what happened to her, she made that choice for herself. You clearly are not a Baha'i and do not espouse its beliefs and teachings and use every opportunity to vent your anger at the world and whatever that crosses your path, what has that accomplished? Reflect on that.
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    reconciliation means no civil war. no anarchy. try to keep whatever of the infrastructure that is left.
    it doesn't mean that a single guilty person should go free.
    having said that just because someone is a member of IRGC and/or bassij he cannot be summarily persecuted and punished. they are iranians like the rest of us.
    Any person that based on evidence (oral, written, media, fb) has harmed any iranians should be put on trial with public being allowed to attend and be prosecuted to the letter of the law. Secular law not islamic.
    and ABSOLUTELY NO DEATH PENALTY. They need to sit in prison cells and talk to psychiatrists and the results of these sessions should be published in journals so the nation of iran will never forget what islamic revolution did to them.
    No, I do not believe you.
    You will not accept less than bloodbath when that day comes. There will be no reconciliation.
    Now, wait a minute..... I say this not because I care if there will be a bloodbath or not, I actually fucking dont care at all, I say this 'cause we all know how the history of that nation goes in similar occasion and how it ends. Sadly its been always like this all the way up to today!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arash_Tombangir View Post
    No, I do not believe you.
    You will not accept less than bloodbath when that day comes. There will be no reconciliation.
    Now, wait a minute..... I say this not because I care if there will be a bloodbath or not, I actually fucking dont care at all, I say this 'cause we all know how the history of that nation goes in similar occasion and how it ends. Sadly its been always like this all the way up to today!
    Firstly, this discussion is kind of academic since, probably, there won't be any sort of change of note in the Iranian Government system in our lifetime.

    Secondly, if you really don't care i suppose it was a waste of time to even reply to you. I just wish you would say you start with the sentence 'i don't fucking care'. you have to admit it is kind of misleading to write about a topic and halfway through say i don't fucking care ...question comes to mind that if you don't fucking care why are you FUCKING writing ?

    anyway, i guess we ll never know.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meehandoost View Post
    Baha'is of the world have paid to gradually buy the lands and build those buildings. As a matter of general practice, Baha'is do not accept donations from Non-Baha'is. Surely you know that Baha'is were forced there in exile into that area by the Islamic rulers of the time...

    As for persecution, it is not God that causes persecution rather angry mobs who follow their mullahs blindly with prejudice, as they still do. The thing about prejudice is that it makes the person blind to reason that for instance long after they have stopped following the mullahs, they still seem to be influenced on a sub-conscious level by the same shibboleth and incantations that have been breathed into them by the same clerical cast.

    For instance, mullahs for long have fed people about Baha'is being spies of this and that, and now they say the same things about the people that have risen to claim their freedom and dignity, yet some still believe it.

    The other sad thing is that if some finally have discovered that mullahs are religious charlatans, then all religions must be bad, even those that for nearly two centuries mullahs have tried to keep a secret from the people. If Baha'is were so bad and their teachings were so bad, wouldn't it make sense to let them speak it so people can see it once and for all, for themselves?

    Now, never mind what your mother believed and what happened to her, she made that choice for herself. You clearly are not a Baha'i and do not espouse its beliefs and teachings and use every opportunity to vent your anger at the world and whatever that crosses your path, what has that accomplished? Reflect on that.
    don't play with words. are you taking leads from GP or what ?

    i didn't say God causes it. i said why doesn't he stop it. like he parted the ocean for moses or he allowed jesus to come back from the dead. or how mohamad went to the sky riding a donkey.
    all these 'PROVEN' and 'REGISTERED' miracles.

    why doesn't he perform like miracles every day to save starving children, or help a woman right before she is assaulted ... does he have a cap on miracles, they are rationed ?

    why does your god (which i guess is the same god as muslims, christians, jews etc) allow his creations (innocent creations) to suffer so much? does he have a mental problem ? psychotic episodes or what ?
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    Firstly, this discussion is kind of academic since, probably, there won't be any sort of change of note in the Iranian Government system in our lifetime.
    Secondly, if you really don't care i suppose it was a waste of time to even reply to you. I just wish you would say you start with the sentence 'i don't fucking care'. you have to admit it is kind of misleading to write about a topic and halfway through say i don't fucking care ...question comes to mind that if you don't fucking care why are you FUCKING writing ?
    anyway, i guess we ll never know.
    bruw, let's keep it "not personal", you always tend to make it personal, it reminds me of fella Chimanski and fella TeaMeli, they both are funny and missing!
    I said "I fucking aint no care" if there goes another bloodbath or not 'cuse this is the ordinary life for some fellas down there, this has nothing to do with if I care what it writes here, you see, its sort of different issues.
    It was the level of contradiction and lack of self-esteem in the texture of that thread that attracted me to write and ask the question, the rest as I said "I fucking aint no care" I do not!

    By the way, you might be right at this one "i guess we ll never know"!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arash_Tombangir View Post
    bruw, let's keep it "not personal", you always tend to make it personal, it reminds me of fella Chimanski and fella TeaMeli, they both are funny and missing!
    I said "I fucking aint no care" if there goes another bloodbath or not 'cuse this is the ordinary life for some fellas down there, this has nothing to do with if I care what it writes here, you see, its sort of different issues.
    It was the level of contradiction and lack of self-esteem in the texture of that thread that attracted me to write and ask the question, the rest as I said "I fucking aint no care" I do not!

    By the way, you might be right at this one "i guess we ll never know"!
    I am sorry if that came across as something 'personal'. I, 'personally', don't spend any time on a discussing a topic that a person (not you, any person) doesn't care about.

    for example if i am at a bar with my buddies from work i would not talk football because they are hockey people. If i am at a Jewish gathering i would not talk about nazis since those guys would probably not want to go down that road.

    I don't know how my comments got personal but again i am sorry if they came across that way.

    as a footnote i feel that i need to make a short comment about your reference to china and TM, about china all i can say is that I learnt a lot from his posts and PMs and if his tone was offensive to some people (never to me even though we disagreed on multitude of things), you need to savvy yourself in every situation in life to 'take away' whatever you can that adds to your perspective of things (e.g. other people's point of view) ...

    well maybe not in every situation, for example in a religious gathering the only takeaway i personally would have is HOW CAN HUMAN BEINGS BE SO MENTALLY IMPOTENT...which is not really a learning experience.

    and last but not least TM seems to be to be a good guy. I like him. not strangers that anyone else in this forum.

    I mean there are actually people in this forum that think IR is best thing on the table for iranian people. I cannot recall hearing anything more IDIOTIC that this in the last three decades.
    holiness is in the right action not in god .

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyvan_pars View Post
    don't play with words. are you taking leads from GP or what ?

    i didn't say God causes it. i said why doesn't he stop it. like he parted the ocean for moses or he allowed jesus to come back from the dead. or how mohamad went to the sky riding a donkey.
    all these 'PROVEN' and 'REGISTERED' miracles.

    why doesn't he perform like miracles every day to save starving children, or help a woman right before she is assaulted ... does he have a cap on miracles, they are rationed ?

    why does your god (which i guess is the same god as muslims, christians, jews etc) allow his creations (innocent creations) to suffer so much? does he have a mental problem ? psychotic episodes or what ?
    Ok I understand your point. Why an All-Loving, Kind God allow anyone to suffer? His true servants, the ones that actually recognized His latest Manifestation and followed His instructions, why would they be left to suffer cruelty and indignity? That is a good question which deserves some reflection. I agree it is difficult not to experience anger and frustration. And I don't pretend to know all the answers. I only offer my thoughts and reflections and hope that that they may be helpful. Ultimately every one has to decide for oneself what makes sense and try to understand one's creator and nurture their relationship.

    Those stories of miracles are fantastic, but we have to really weigh them in accordance with reason and logic and the laws of existence. If there is a God and He created this world and others, He naturally put certain orders for them. I believe the fabric of this level of existence is free will and one must decide on one's own free will how to lead one's life.

    The other aspect is that this is but the beginning of life, the only level that has a material and physical manifestation, other levels follow which are spiritual. The same way that we develop the necessary faculties for this life in the womb, we develop our spiritul qualities in this level for other spiritual worlds after this. During the nine months in the womb we develop our eyes so we can see in this world, we develop our ears so we can hear in this world, and so on. In the same fashoin we develop our spiritual qualities such as patience, kindliness, tolerance, generosity, thankfulness, love, etc. in this world so we can use them in the spiritual worlds. Just as the world of the womb is short in comparison to this world, this world too is but a fleeting moment compared to the spiritual worlds.

    I know it is difficult to see it as such at the time, however it is through these struggles that we develop our spiritual qualities and grow. This is why God does not intervene at every moment to rescue the oppressed and save the innocent, because He would be doing it every moment and that defeats the purpose of this world, which is for us to develop our spiritual qualities out of our own free will and volition. It is for us to recognize the latest manifestation of God out of our own free will and then abide in His laws. It has to be in accordance to our own free will, not force, to have merit and allow spiritual growth.

    Now, some cherish this free will to do what is good and seemly, to recognize the Manifestation of God, to follow His teachings, to serve their fello-beings, to be the cause of unity and amity among mankind; on the other hand others relinquish this free will to that of the clergy and become a member of an angry mob which does their biddings, chant angry slogans in the streets, burn homes of defensless people, attack women and children, lie and cheat for material possessions and worldly powers. Alas as is the nature of this world their powers and possessions do not endure and perish, as do the sufferings of the inoccent and their lives in this world will come to an end. However God is All-knowing and All-powerful. Do we think that He will forget the sufferings of His servants and the tyrrany of the opressor in this or the next worlds? I think not.

    Interestingly enough, each new Manifestation of God elucidates these spiritual beliefs that with time people and especially the clergy turn into some superstition and dogma for their own gain. Spiritual truths such as heaven and hell, salvation, ressurection, end of days, etc. that had found material meaning by the clergy to secure their position in society were clarified by the Bab which brought the grip of the clergy and autocratic kings to an end and that was the real reason for their violent opposition to His movement and His followers that had swept the nation in a short period.

    I hope this wasn't too long and worth the time to read it!
    Last edited by Meehandoost; 13-01-2018 at 07:20 PM.
    شکرشکن شوندهمه طوطیان هند، زین قند پارسی که به بنگاله میرود


 

 

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