Israel is deeply humiliated by Erdogan at Davos

[sultan2008]

Originally Posted by DireStraits

Dear sultan2008,
It is true that western people don't sympathize with Muslims. But believe me
if you blindly support any Islamic movement just because Israel dose these things
or US kills Iraqis you may suddenly fall in the same trape as we did and I tell
you it is like hell. So this is a tricky subject. The fact that US is killing Iraqis
for their oil should not push you in the hands of Islamic governments who makes life
like torture.
Not always I like what western politicians do but I will always hate fenatic
muslems.

ı know that irans islamic regime is very bad. ı met many iranians in turkey coming for vacation. actually we are similar people. but our belief system is a little different than yours. ı think iranian people are not really muslims and they are mostsly atheists ,but culturally and politically acting like islamics. we turks are much much deeper muslims and stick to islam whole heartedly. the reason is we fought too many wars against christians.we lost millions. we were butchered, but condemned as the butchers. we still have borders with them. we work with them, they visit our country ,our economy,expoerts ,imports, is 80% dependent on them, we live in millions in their lands, they buy lands here, no problem. but both europeans and we have great susspicions about each other, ı want independent turkey with very close partnership with azeris and other centrel turks. ı never want to see turkey in eu. never. we dont belong there. we would be second class people among them. we have our own unique culture.

ım proud of being a muslim. islam belief is beautiful ,when it is between you and the creator.,but it is very bad if it becomes political and some people use it for power. in iran you have this unfortunately.

[shahinc]

Originally Posted by sultan2008

ı am not against israelis having a country there.ım not against israelis stealing invading arab lands. ı am not against israelis making war either. but you do it like a man. ............

armenian lies of 100 years ago.
.

I am sorry but I have no idea what you mean by " do it like a man " ? How does a man steals and invades ? Was what was done to Armenian by Turks done " Like a man " ? What charactrises the act to be " done by a man" ??

Also, I thought you admit to what happened to armenian in your thread !!! How is it lies then ??


Also, I have a question for you as a Turk, Do you belive the Turks are Ottaman Empire are in fact the forfathers of the current Turk, Therefore, the current turkish people have a say/share in their forfather's "acomplishment" or " wise versa" wrong doings ??

I like to hear your opinion on this as a Turkish national since ( if you read the earlier posts), some people, although acknowldeging the tragedy , did not think Turkish government and Turkish nation should apologize BECAUSE they were different from Ottman empire ???

What do you think about this analogy and line of reasoning ?

[The_Referee]

Originally Posted by deerouz

No one is defending their atrocities. It is just that you simply don't read the posts and get offended at the slightest comparison of Israel with Turkey.

What Israel is doing to Palestinians is a crime. What Turks did to Armenians was a far greater crime. I am not hestitating to point out this fact when I am condemning both. But I haven't seen you come out and admit that expelling AND massacring people from their homeland (as turks did) is a greater crime than what Isarelis have been doing. For you, it seems, whatever the muslims do gets a pass.

Keeping the facts, power and time in context, what Israelis are doing is not even comparable to atrocities of Ottomon Empire. Ottomon Empire did what almost every empire in those days did. Nazis were doing worse even after them. Allies flattened out German cities with no mercy after them.
But Israel, were supposedly the victims of a heroundous holocaust and immigrants in a new land. However, what they did to their host nation was to mass murder and terrorize them from their own homes. Worse than that, they continued apartheid in the name of victims of holocaust to date and are doing the same in 21st century under the watch of the whole world. I am sure if they did not have the restrains they have today, they would not be as merciful as you think they are. Ottomons would be angles compared to them.
Anyhow, bringing the whole Ottomon thing here was wrong from the begining. What Ordogan did was a good sign of how Israelis are beyond the limits of what world can tolerate now. Israelis are atrocious and have been. Talk about Ottomons should be in another thread. Bringing Ottomons up was a master debate tactic by someone here to divert the actual discussion at hand and you guys were so happy to jump on it in defense of indefensible Israeli apartheid establishment.

[shahinc]

Originally Posted by The_Referee

you guys were so happy to jump on it in defense of indefensible Israeli apartheid establishment.

I think most people here were not defending Isreail but pointing to another victimes and their rights and .... why can not we talk about those victimes ? I think we have the right to discuss them here as well.

I see a big difference in defending Isreail and talking about Armenian victimes in the hand of Ottman Empire and I think you were unbiased toward the disscution, would have seen it the same way.

[sultan2008]

Originally Posted by shahinc

I am sorry but I have no idea what you mean by " do it like a man " ? How does a man steals and invades ? Was what was done to Armenian by Turks done " Like a man " ? What charactrises the act to be " done by a man" ??

Also, I thought you admit to what happened to armenian in your thread !!! How is it lies then ??


Also, I have a question for you as a Turk, Do you belive the Turks are Ottaman Empire are in fact the forfathers of the current Turk, Therefore, the current turkish people have a say/share in their forfather's "acomplishment" or " wise versa" wrong doings ??

I like to hear your opinion on this as a Turkish national since ( if you read the earlier posts), some people, although acknowldeging the tragedy , did not think Turkish government and Turkish nation should apologize BECAUSE they were different from Ottman empire ???

What do you think about this analogy and line of reasoning ?

making a war like a man means this,

even if you invade a land, you dont make that place an open jail for millions of people, you dont kill civilians,children. and you let the people live decent lifes.there are war rules you have to obey.it is also ashame that the rest of the arabs leave them alone to death.

ottoman empire was not similar to turkey. it was a multicultural system while turkey is a nationalistic system. there are 30,000 people in turkey openly apologised for the armenian tragedy. this is their choice. we dont kill them. techniqually turkey cant be responsible for the ottoman period. but this is morally an honour problem for us. we did cause a tragedy. but you cant call it a genocide comparing to hitlers. there was extreme nationalizm and chaos all over the world. armenians declared a war against muslims and actually in the beginning they were winning, but western imperialists and russia left them alone and they lost. and left anatolia. they eggzagurate the numbers alot.

you cant judge 100 years ago with todays rules. there was no democracy nowhere that time.

[The_Referee]

Originally Posted by shahinc

I think most people here were not defending Isreail but pointing to another victimes and their rights and .... why can not we talk about those victimes ? I think we have the right to discuss them here as well.

I see a big difference in defending Isreail and talking about Armenian victimes in the hand of Ottman Empire and I think you were unbiased toward the disscution, would have seen it the same way.

Shahin Jaan,
I am not aware of true intentions of people, especially what I have here is just some posts.
However, be fair to me and let me know what you hear from the posts of some posters here:

• Some did post anything against Israel or when they did they tried to justify them.
• Some even tried to defend Israelis atrocities in less subtle wayssuch as saying responding to critcisms of Israeli mass murders by using phrases such as "Things are bad when Jews do it!"
• Then all of a sudden they were so vocal about Armenian genocide when Turkish PM walked out in Davo!

[shahinc]

Originally Posted by The_Referee

Shahin Jaan,
I am not aware of true intentions of people, especially what I have here is just some posts.
However, be fair to me and let me know what you hear from the posts of some posters here:

• Some did post anything against Israel or when they did they tried to justify them.
• Some even tried to defend Israelis atrocities in less subtle wayssuch as saying responding to critcisms of Israeli mass murders by using phrases such as "Things are bad when Jews do it!"
• Then all of a sudden they were so vocal about Armenian genocide when Turkish PM walked out in Davo!

Referee Aziz, I know how pationate you are about Palestine issues. I can not say for everyone but most people here know and say what Isreail is doing is wrong and UNJUSTIFY. However, they also acknowldge that are other players involved in this who are maybe not as responsible as Isreail but are indeed responsible for these mass killings such as government of Iran.


At the end of the day, the true losser are people of palestine who are victim to the political games being played by some of their unresonsible and corrupt leaders, Iranian government and also maninly , Isreail government.

This is not black and white and till the day we look at it as black and white, we will not be able to resolve it. Both sides need to compermise and both side should put the hate to the side and look for peaceful solution while cutting the hands of forign influence out of their country.

[Fole_Penalt]

Not to minimize Israeli Mehrvarzi towards Palestinians Islamic Republic style,

This is now, not decades ago:

Up until a few years ago Kurdish was banned everywhere and even the mention of the word Kurd had punishment. Kurds were called mountain Turks! Can you imagine that!? Turks have had a horrific history of oppression towards minorities and countries they occupied. Though better now they still continue to oppress anyone who they feel is not Turkish enough.

Kurdish speech triggers Turkey row

A Turkish Kurd politician has triggered a controversy after he delivered a speech in Kurdish in parliament, breaking a law that bars the language from official settings.

Ahmet Turk, who heads the Democratic Society Party, Turkey's largest pro-Kurdish party, began speaking on Tuesday in Turkish but then switched to Kurdish, causing state-run television to cut its live broadcast of the speech.

Kurdish is banned in schools and parliament, on grounds that it would cause ethnic divisions.

Turk was speaking to his party's parliamentary group about Unesco's international day of native languages.

"In order to show that there is nothing to fear in using other languages and to emphasise brotherhood of languages during the International Day of Mother Tongues, let me continue my speech in Kurdish," he said, just before going off air.

"Kurds have long been oppressed because they did not know any other language,'' he said. "I promised myself that I would speak in my mother tongue at an official meeting one day."

'Provocation'

Turk received a standing ovation from about 20 members of his party, but other groups have criticised his speech, saying it was a political manoeuvre ahead of the March 29 municipal elections.

Nihat Ergun, deputy chairman of the ruling AK Party's parliament group, said the speech was a "provocation".

Koksal Toptan, head of the national assembly, found fault with Turk for speaking in Kurdish, but said that he would not be fined for defying the law.

"The official language is Turkish,'' he said. "This meeting should have been conducted in Turkish."

Under the country's law, only Turkish can be spoken in political addresses.

However Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, spoke a few words of Kurdish at a campaign rally on Saturday.

[sultan2008]

Originally Posted by Fole_Penalt

Not to minimize Israeli Mehrvarzi towards Palestinians Islamic Republic style,

This is now, not decades ago:

Up until a few years ago Kurdish was banned everywhere and even the mention of the word Kurd had punishment. Kurds were called mountain Turks! Can you imagine that!? Turks have had a horrific history of oppression towards minorities and countries they occupied. Though better now they still continue to oppress anyone who they feel is not Turkish enough.

Kurdish speech triggers Turkey row

A Turkish Kurd politician has triggered a controversy after he delivered a speech in Kurdish in parliament, breaking a law that bars the language from official settings.

Ahmet Turk, who heads the Democratic Society Party, Turkey's largest pro-Kurdish party, began speaking on Tuesday in Turkish but then switched to Kurdish, causing state-run television to cut its live broadcast of the speech.

Kurdish is banned in schools and parliament, on grounds that it would cause ethnic divisions.

Turk was speaking to his party's parliamentary group about Unesco's international day of native languages.

"In order to show that there is nothing to fear in using other languages and to emphasise brotherhood of languages during the International Day of Mother Tongues, let me continue my speech in Kurdish," he said, just before going off air.

"Kurds have long been oppressed because they did not know any other language,'' he said. "I promised myself that I would speak in my mother tongue at an official meeting one day."

'Provocation'

Turk received a standing ovation from about 20 members of his party, but other groups have criticised his speech, saying it was a political manoeuvre ahead of the March 29 municipal elections.

Nihat Ergun, deputy chairman of the ruling AK Party's parliament group, said the speech was a "provocation".

Koksal Toptan, head of the national assembly, found fault with Turk for speaking in Kurdish, but said that he would not be fined for defying the law.

"The official language is Turkish,'' he said. "This meeting should have been conducted in Turkish."

Under the country's law, only Turkish can be spoken in political addresses.

However Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, spoke a few words of Kurdish at a campaign rally on Saturday.

ı can write something about this, but ı think the moderator dont like my words and banns my posts:maybe non iranians are not allowed here. this is a try ,lets see if it will be on there.

[sultan2008]

Originally Posted by DireStraits

Dear sultan2008,
It is true that western people don't sympathize with Muslims. But believe me
if you blindly support any Islamic movement just because Israel dose these things
or US kills Iraqis you may suddenly fall in the same trape as we did and I tell
you it is like hell. So this is a tricky subject. The fact that US is killing Iraqis
for their oil should not push you in the hands of Islamic governments who makes life
like torture.
Not always I like what western politicians do but I will always hate fenatic
muslems.

ı like dire straits ''we are the sultens '' song.

dear friend, ı am not an islamist. ı am a muslim. ı dont like iranian islamic regime. allah belief must be between humans and allah only. belief system must not be used as a political tool. ı respect atheists and everybody. my cousin drinks alco0hol in ramazan when ı fasten 30 days infront of me. no problem. ı also drink almost every weekend except ramazan.

but when ı talk about western, christianian, white imperializm, ı mean it. we have to struggle against it in a civilised way. they suck our bloods. we need to be free countries. this doesnt mean that we hate europeans. on the contrary we respect them, they can come to our lands and make export import ,buy lands, but they shouldnt buy our banks for example.and we shouldnt be in eu in where we become third class people.no?

[Fole_Penalt]

Originally Posted by sultan2008

ı can write something about this, but ı think the moderator dont like my words and banns my posts:maybe non iranians are not allowed here. this is a try ,lets see if it will be on there.

soltan jan, go ahead say whatever your heart desires. Just keep your language clean.

[DireStraits]

Originally Posted by sultan2008

ı like dire straits ''we are the sultens '' song.

dear friend, ı am not an islamist. ı am a muslim. ı dont like iranian islamic regime. allah belief must be between humans and allah only. belief system must not be used as a political tool. ı respect atheists and everybody. my cousin drinks alco0hol in ramazan when ı fasten 30 days infront of me. no problem. ı also drink almost every weekend except ramazan.

but when ı talk about western, christianian, white imperializm, ı mean it. we have to struggle against it in a civilised way. they suck our bloods. we need to be free countries. this doesnt mean that we hate europeans. on the contrary we respect them, they can come to our lands and make export import ,buy lands, but they shouldnt buy our banks for example.and we shouldnt be in eu in where we become third class people.no?

Thank you. I am the sultein of swing. The point you should understand is that Iranians are sick of Islamists. I see you are in the middle of discussion with many of my Iranian fellow so Í tried to help you understand some differences. The issue between Israel and phalestine pushes every moslem to the fenatic side. Since your islamic feelings which are part of your identity gets hurt.
This has been a trick US and britain(Imeperialists as you call it) have used again and again. In Irans policy for instance when ever Isreal kills some phalestinian the hard liner side in Iran gets popularity. And as you may realize some of us iranians are pissed at iranian polititions(fenatics) who don't really care about social reforms and other important issues and only concentrate on Isreal issue. So as I said Israel Palestinian issue is very tricky.
Sure your politicians may fish an EU membership out of this if they act cleverly.

[sultan2008]

Originally Posted by DireStraits

Thank you. I am the sultein of swing. The point you should understand is that Iranians are sick of Islamists. I see you are in the middle of discussion with many of my Iranian fellow so Í tried to help you understand some differences. The issue between Israel and phalestine pushes every moslem to the fenatic side. Since your islamic feelings which are part of your identity gets hurt.
This has been a trick US and britain(Imeperialists as you call it) have used again and again. In Irans policy for instance when ever Isreal kills some phalestinian the hard liner side in Iran gets popularity. And as you may realize some of us iranians are
pissed at iranian polititions(fenatics) who don't really care about social reforms and other important issues and only concentrate on Isreal issue.
So as I said Israelpalestinian issue is very tricky.
Of cource your politicians may fish an EU membership out of this if they act cleverly.

ı met lots of iranians in turkey. most of them were really against islam. but islam is used as politics in iran. this is very different. people have to obey the rules of islam?? so ,some people decide what islam is and what is suitable for islam and make everybody to live that way. this is very bad.

we have to be free the way we wish to believe. or not believe or differently believe.

islam is my identity. ı dont care if all west hates it or if all the muslim countries are backward or dont have democracy. ı also dont care if some hadiths are logical or not. maybe there is nothing like life after death. we cant know why we are in this world for sure. we only believe that we will be judged for the things we did in our life. you may not believe it.

but my personal problem is our experience with the christians(not jews though) they destroyed masscred us. 100 thousand turks were frozen to death in russian border. 250 thousand turks died in gallipoli, 250 thousand died in saudi lands from starvation without fighting.in anatolia no men left.millions died. there are tens of mass graves. and now we are accused of genocide 100 years ago ,by whole west and some muslims join them. this is horrible.

this is why ı stuck to islam very much. because ı get disgusted by this. why nobody accuse france for example about algerian genocide happened just 40 years ago very recent. everytime we do something not suitable to western interests they talk about armenian genocide, but nobody accuse france for example who never accepted anything.

israel is doing terrorizm against phalestein. it is every humans duty to rebel this. this dont mean we are enemy of israelis or we are islamists. this means we are humans. so if iran government use this as apolitical issue ,you should still not join to western imperializm.

iranians and turks look phsicly the same. ı cant differ them. we are both muslims. but we prefer to join the white christian western imperialists . why? ı dont care iran politics in iran about islam. turkey must fully defend iran in international arena. why,israel has neuclear weapons and not iran. why not. iran must have nuclear weapons. and iranians must stay nuetral about armenian lies.

[DireStraits]

Originally Posted by sultan2008

ı met lots of iranians in turkey. most of them were really against islam. but islam is used as politics in iran. this is very different. people have to obey the rules of islam?? so ,some people decide what islam is and what is suitable for islam and make everybody to live that way. this is very bad.

we have to be free the way we wish to believe. or not believe or differently believe.

islam is my identity. ı dont care if all west hates it or if all the muslim countries are backward or dont have democracy. ı also dont care if some hadiths are logical or not. maybe there is nothing like life after death. we cant know why we are in this world for sure. we only believe that we will be judged for the things we did in our life. you may not believe it.

but my personal problem is our experience with the christians(not jews though) they destroyed masscred us. 100 thousand turks were frozen to death in russian border. 250 thousand turks died in gallipoli, 250 thousand died in saudi lands from starvation without fighting.in anatolia no men left.millions died. there are tens of mass graves. and now we are accused of genocide 100 years ago ,by whole west and some muslims join them. this is horrible.

this is why ı stuck to islam very much. because ı get disgusted by this. why nobody accuse france for example about algerian genocide happened just 40 years ago very recent. everytime we do something not suitable to western interests they talk about armenian genocide, but nobody accuse france for example who never accepted anything.

israel is doing terrorizm against phalestein. it is every humans duty to rebel this. this dont mean we are enemy of israelis or we are islamists. this means we are humans. so if iran government use this as apolitical issue ,you should still not join to western imperializm.

iranians and turks look phsicly the same. ı cant differ them. we are both muslims. but we prefer to join the white christian western imperialists . why? ı dont care iran politics in iran about islam. turkey must fully defend iran in international arena. why,israel has neuclear weapons and not iran. why not. iran must have nuclear weapons. and iranians must stay nuetral about armenian lies.

I don't want to go in this armenia story since i don't know about it and frankly I don't care. It is past. I also have Turkish friend. They are different but most
of them OK. I also have lots of respect for your intention to support Iran if they attack Iran. What I strongly disagree with you is that you believe in an Islamic state people can live freely. That is what people of Iran thought before revelution. If you know Iranians in Turkey talk to them.Do not miss to learn from their expierience. It is not for no reason they have left Iran their home land.

[sultan2008]

Originally Posted by DireStraits

I don't want to go in this armenia story since i don't know about it and frankly I don't care. It is past. I also have Turkish friend. They are different but most
of them OK. I also have lots of respect for your intention to support Iran if they attack Iran. What I strongly disagree with you is that you believe in an Islamic state people can live freely. That is what people of Iran thought before revelution. If you know Iranians in Turkey talk to them.Do not miss to learn from their expierience. It is not for no reason they have left Iran their home land.

well, the only reason ı registered here is the strong hostile attitude against turks claiming the so called armenian genocide here .

ı understand your objections to irans islamic regime. ı also agree that islamizm can be used as a fachist,antidemocratic system in where people are not free and unhappy.

but there is also a reality,real politics that there is a muslim front against imperialist-racist judeo-christianity in the world. no one can deny this.why do you think eu rejects turkey while turkey is in better position economicly from countries like romania and bulgaria.

the truth is ,this imperializm is directing us. none of the muslim countries,including turkey and iran are free. imperializm use all tools to do its dirty job.

in arab countries they buy their leaders and steal their oil,cause wars,invade,suck the huge arab money to their lands,

in countries like turkey, they use all economic tools to bancrupt the country so that we can do their orders, and try to divide our country by revolting kurds.

in countries like iran, try to isolate it from the world by all kinds of threats and ambargos.

so when we are under such imperialist attacks ,we can not improve our lifes and live in a antidemocratic country, misearable lifes .

and when we cant stand anymore to live in our own countries and start living in the imperialists lands, they humiliate us and we try our best to be like them to get less harrassed.

when imperialist invaded our arab lands 100 years ago, they provoked arabs by natioanalist feelings, promising them a one great arab empire. but than they divided them into 50 pieces and directing them by sold leaders now. they also invented a israel state there in the middle of arab land as agent provocoteur. saddam was their officer. whe he didnt obey the rules they brought democracy to ıraq by killing 1,5 million people.but nobody can condemn america for genocide ofcourse. they say muslims are killing muslims what can they do.

instead of listening the provacative lies of imperializm like armenian genocide just to seperate our hearts,we need to, all muslims countries get together and struggle politicly and economicly,civilised way against the imperializm.

why does arab oil money got west and doesnt come to pakistan or turkey for example?

we must do much more than burning flags and screaming in the streets. we need to be intelligent. smile to their faces,act as if we can cooparate with them but never forget that they are our real enemies and rivals.