حذف «قاتل و وحشی» از جشنواره فجر به خاطر نمایش گوش لیلا حاتمی - Someone got a boner by seeing Leila Hatami's ears!!!

Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
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#21
This is what you are referring to? if so, how does this answer my question? It is like me asking, How can I get to New York under 7 hours from LA and you answer " Well you can not take the Train !!! ... you are not answering my question Sly jan, you are saying what is NOT going to work, I am asking WHAT is going to work? How can we see regime change in Iran?
Ok, when you say regime change, it automatically makes you think a regime change by an extremist or a foreign force. I guess what you rather mean is the solution to all the problems in Iran today...

I think both you and I (and everybody else here) agree that democracy, is the only thing that makes humans relatively happy in modern societies. Now to answer your question, I need to ask you one first. After you see our people inside and outside Iran (including pro-IRI people, MKO, Saltanat talabs, etc.), do you think we can have democracy in Iran today under any regime? Is it possible?
 

Pooya

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#22
Ok, when you say regime change, it automatically makes you think a regime change by an extremist or a foreign force. I guess what you rather mean is the solution to all the problems in Iran today...

I think both you and I (and everybody else here) agree that democracy, is the only thing that makes humans relatively happy in modern societies. Now to answer your question, I need to ask you one first. After you see our people inside and outside Iran (including pro-IRI people, MKO, Saltanat talabs, etc.), do you think we can have democracy in Iran today under any regime? Is it possible?
Of course it is possible. Less than 100 years ago, Black people could NOT use the same bathrooms as the white people in US. They were not allowed many jobs, and women could not vote. A woman or a Black person could say the same, "Looking at things, we just go on like this for ever since its not possible to change"
Look where things are today? We have Woman in Vice President role and had a black President !!!

So to answer your questions, YES 100% I think it is possible. However, democracy under the current regime OR any regime that is based out of religion is NOT possible in my opinion.

I guess then what you are saying is, let the Islamic Republic continue as its not possible to achieve democracy?
 

Sly

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Oct 18, 2002
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#23
Of course it is possible. Less than 100 years ago, Black people could NOT use the same bathrooms as the white people in US. They were not allowed many jobs, and women could not vote. A woman or a Black person could say the same, "Looking at things, we just go on like this for ever since its not possible to change"
Look where things are today? We have Woman in Vice President role and had a black President !!!

So to answer your questions, YES 100% I think it is possible. However, democracy under the current regime OR any regime that is based out of religion is NOT possible in my opinion.

I guess then what you are saying is, let the Islamic Republic continue as its not possible to achieve democracy?
Well, that's where we differ. If just giving rights to women and black people in society and politics equals having democracy, then Iran has had democracy for thousands of years. Cyrus the great is known to have given the same rights to all races with different religions. Even today all different ethnical groups (minus bahaeis) have representatives in majles. and there are women having high posts in IRI's government! Does that mean Iran is a democracy? No.

What made U.S. a democracy was rather the mentality, the culture. Something that is not given over night but it demands mental "readiness". You can not expect a country like Iran with no experience of democracy in its entire history to suddenly become democratic over night. It wont happen because people are mentally not ready for it. Do a regime change today, do you think IRI supporters will sit there and say nice, now we vote? Do you think MKO who are ready to kill their own country men will stand by and watch a true free election in Iran?

All the so called "solutions" about regime change by the hands of people or a foreign force will only do one thing....it will get rid of IRI. and then what? In the best case scenario, another similar regime will be replaced with lots of IRI supporters ready to do suicide bombings. Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan...

Now to answer your first question.... the real solution which will change Iran for ever, is education and reform in our culture! People need to learn tolerance. They need to learn to respect an opposite opinion. When that happens, only then you can have democracy in Iran. Now with the existence of social media and internet, reaching people has become easier. Sites and forums like this are great places to practice. People like Masih Alinejad and others are good sources to slowly open closed eyes. Mentality change is the key! but it will take time! A long long time!
 
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Pooya

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#24
Sly: I will respond to you shortly, however another question, I appreciate if you just answer with Yes or a No.

Do you think democracy can be achieved with Islamic Republic still in power?
Do you think democracy can be achieved with any government formed on religion?
 

Sly

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Oct 18, 2002
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#25
Sly: I will respond to you shortly, however another question, I appreciate if you just answer with Yes or a No.

Do you think democracy can be achieved with Islamic Republic still in power?
Democracy wont be achieved with any regime until people have learned to have democracy first. So no, it wont.

Do you think democracy can be achieved with any government formed on religion?
No.
 
Nov 10, 2002
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#26
Who wants to teach them democracy ? In school ? or in Society ? or in the line of buying eggs ? Akhe yek chizi begoo ke aadam khandash nagireh Mr. Ziba Kalam 101. If the people haven't learned after 100 of years and with all communications that is around nowadays, gotta say they will never learn. You have to work hard to get freedom, it doesn't come easy.
And Pooya jan, the only way there is hope is that this regime is gone ... everything else is utter nonsense.
 
#27
I understand very well hat Sly is saying. Basically is this: until we the people reform OURSELVES, then no matter who comes it will be the same if not worse than what we have today. You can not expect fundamental change any replacement will simply replace the ideology but not the oppressive methods to impose it.

I am totally in favour of reform. I believe reform is the best way forward in any wake of life. But the specific issue here is that IR is not reformable. They have made this abundantly clear and if anything, every time something seems to change for the better, the regime pushes back in other areas and takes back more control.


So the only solution I can see is a very dark one with a lot of bloodshed. One thing for sure, the current system can't last long. Sooner o later, it will explode. And the main reason is that the powers that be closed all routes to real reform.
 

Pooya

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#28
I understand very well hat Sly is saying. Basically is this: until we the people reform OURSELVES, then no matter who comes it will be the same if not worse than what we have today. You can not expect fundamental change any replacement will simply replace the ideology but not the oppressive methods to impose it.

I am totally in favour of reform. I believe reform is the best way forward in any wake of life. But the specific issue here is that IR is not reformable. They have made this abundantly clear and if anything, every time something seems to change for the better, the regime pushes back in other areas and takes back more control.

So the only solution I can see is a very dark one with a lot of bloodshed. One thing for sure, the current system can't last long. Sooner o later, it will explode. And the main reason is that the powers that be closed all routes to real reform.
I agree, but you nailed it in the head.
ISLAMIC REPUBLIC can NOT be REFORMED !!!! if we wait for that, then we are wasting our time.
Another issue is, while 1000000% we need to reform ourselves, I strongly believe this wont happen under IR.

It even upsets me writing this, but in my opinion, the only way to save Iran is to have dictator like Reza Shah. I do not think democracy of any kind would work in Iran because of the reasons you mentioned. We need a dictator like Reza Shah to make some drastic changes, then slowly people reform and then install democracy, unfortunately I dont think I will live long enough to witness this.
 

Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
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#29
I understand very well hat Sly is saying. Basically is this: until we the people reform OURSELVES, then no matter who comes it will be the same if not worse than what we have today. You can not expect fundamental change any replacement will simply replace the ideology but not the oppressive methods to impose it.

I am totally in favour of reform. I believe reform is the best way forward in any wake of life. But the specific issue here is that IR is not reformable. They have made this abundantly clear and if anything, every time something seems to change for the better, the regime pushes back in other areas and takes back more control.

So the only solution I can see is a very dark one with a lot of bloodshed. One thing for sure, the current system can't last long. Sooner o later, it will explode. And the main reason is that the powers that be closed all routes to real reform.
Behrooz jan, IRI people are not from Mars. They are a portion of Iranian people. If the people reform themselves and learn to practice tolerance, in time, there wont be any IRI left anymore. It's embedded in itself. It's a cause and effect thing.
 
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Sly

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Oct 18, 2002
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#30
I do not think democracy of any kind would work in Iran because of the reasons you mentioned.
But I thought you said democracy was possible today under another regime?

We need a dictator like Reza Shah to make some drastic changes, then slowly people reform and then install democracy, unfortunately I dont think I will live long enough to witness this.
I do agree that a dictator like Reza shah could put everyone on their places and tell them to shut up and obey. Then all the different extremist groups will not have any option but to obey what's right. But Pooya jan, that is only a short term solution. As we have seen today and in the past, every time people are forced to do stuff against their will, it will only backfire. Reza shah was fantastic in modernizing Iran. Sometimes it was with force but it gave results. However, later the Islamists' rise in Iran's revolution back in 79 was an indirect cause of Reza Shah, oppressing them. I'm sure a young Khomeini got an "oghdeh" or 2 left in him, after he saw his religious mother being forced to stay at home because she didn't want to go out without hijab.

Forcing people is NOT the way to teach them about democracy. It's just the opposite. It will teach them force and dictatorship. It wont be different compared to what IRI is doing now. and it will only backfire. Freedom and freedom of speech is what people need to experience. and with patience, that will come in time. I completely agree with your last statement though. Our lives are ruined for ever.
 
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#31
Iranian society is a real challenge for any regime. The Iranian mentality will turn any democracy into a dictatorship and spreads corruption. Iranians in general don't like to follow rules and want everything yesterday and are prepared to get it by any means. A regime that itself is deep into corruption can not change this. So reform under this regime is not possible because it has gone too far to turn back. Too many of its supporters rely on the corruption.

Iran needs a benevolent dictator like Pahlavi but it's too late for that now.
 

Sly

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Oct 18, 2002
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#32
Iranian society is a real challenge for any regime. The Iranian mentality will turn any democracy into a dictatorship and spreads corruption. Iranians in general don't like to follow rules and want everything yesterday and are prepared to get it by any means.
Totally agree!

A regime that itself is deep into corruption can not change this. So reform under this regime is not possible because it has gone too far to turn back. Too many of its supporters rely on the corruption.
Iran needs a benevolent dictator like Pahlavi but it's too late for that now.
IRI in its current form can certainly not change this and they wont. Why would they? They are enjoying power and the country's enormous wealth. As said, however, with the existence of social media and internet, people's (not necessarily people in IRI's system) closed eyes will slowly open up. When people get reformed, there will slowly be a huge change in the minds of the individuals who will replace the dead IRI members. and the cycle continues until slowly but surely IRI in its current form will cease to exist. and no...unfortunately that wont happen in our life time but I believe that's the only solution which will solve Iran's problems long term and for ever.

For that to happen, lots and lots of patience is needed. but unfortunately as you very well said: Iranian people "want everything yesterday and are prepared to get it by any means".
 
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Sly

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Oct 18, 2002
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#33
Back to the original post by the way....

From what I read the film "Ghatele Vahshi" was disqualified mostly because of ownership issues. Where did you get that article from Pooya jan?

It would be weird if it was disqualified for her ear as in the movie, "Butterfly Swimming" in the same festival, Pantea Bahrami has also got shaved hair and shows her ear from every angle you can imagine:

1612643216413.png

1612643243862.png

Even though you can expect many weird things in Iran under IRI, I think in this particular case, the article is a hoax.
 

Pooya

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#34
Sly: Do you really think ISLAMIC REPUBLIC can be "reformed" akhe chetori? It doesnt matter who replace Khameneyi, we saw what happened when Khomeyni was replaced no?
We can agree to disagree, but in my opinion, as long as you have a government based on RELIGION, No matter how much reform, it can NOT happen. It is NEVER going to work. If you have Muslims in charge, they are not going to respect Shia or Sonni or Bahai or or or, if you have Christians in charge, same shit , so the only way to see REFORM is to separate religion from government.

To start a "reform" you need to remove Religion from Government. I have no issue with people following religion, all religions should be respected, however, they should happen in their place and completely isolated from government, also, all religions should respect those who choose to NOT have any religion. Once this is established, then we can start getting somewhere. No reform will EVER COME under ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.
 

Pooya

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#35
Back to the original post by the way....

From what I read the film "Ghatele Vahshi" was disqualified mostly because of ownership issues. Where did you get that article from Pooya jan?
https://seemorgh.com/culture/culture-news/451570-گوش-لیلا-حاتمی-برای-قاتل-وحشی-دردسرساز-شد/

http://www.ensafnews.com/280230/مشکل-از-گوش-لیلا-حاتمی-است-یا-مغز-دیگران/

https://kayhan.london/fa/1399/11/12/اکران-گوش-و-سر-لیلا-حاتمی-در-یک-سئانس

https://vigiato.net/p/160079

https://rooziato.com/1399298663/حذف-فیلم-قاتل-و-وحشی-از-جشنواره-فجر/


Let me know if you need more. as much as I like to believe my country has not turned into this, but yeah, its true. And we want Islamic Republic to reform? hmmmm
 
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Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
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434
#36
Sly: Do you really think ISLAMIC REPUBLIC can be "reformed" akhe chetori? It doesnt matter who replace Khameneyi, we saw what happened when Khomeyni was replaced no?
We can agree to disagree, but in my opinion, as long as you have a government based on RELIGION, No matter how much reform, it can NOT happen. It is NEVER going to work. If you have Muslims in charge, they are not going to respect Shia or Sonni or Bahai or or or, if you have Christians in charge, same shit , so the only way to see REFORM is to separate religion from government.

To start a "reform" you need to remove Religion from Government. I have no issue with people following religion, all religions should be respected, however, they should happen in their place and completely isolated from government, also, all religions should respect those who choose to NOT have any religion. Once this is established, then we can start getting somewhere. No reform will EVER COME under ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.
Pooya jan, if you read my posts properly, you see you and I are in fact in agreement. Yes Religion and politics must be separated. I did not say less than that so I don't know why you bring that up all the times! The only difference between us is that you think it's possible to separate religion and politics over night in a way that we can all be free while I think that is only a short term solution and in the long term many other problems will arise with that instead. The real solution in my opinion was to give it time and I gave my reasons for it which were based on fact and history. Now either you take my reasons and think about them or repeat yourself over and over again. Once you think in your head that someone's opinion is against yours, you will automatically be on the defensive side no matter if you are actually in agreement with the person or not. The example is a few replies above when you were arguing against me but as soon as Behrooz-c explained just what I said in another way, you agreed. You need to be open to understand people's opinions. It's not a competition who's right or wrong here.
 

Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
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#37
Well, that is very weird. How can one film be banned for an ear but another one with the same appearance of the actress, not be? It does not make sense. There must be something else going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of.