A Selection from "Resaleh" (Towzih ol Masael) Book of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini

Aug 26, 2009
469
0
#41
My understanding is that according to Shia Islam, when you get to the age of puberty, you must choose a Marja-eh-taghleed. I am not sure based on what version of Shia you are making these statements. This in fact is one of the major differences between Sonie and Shia. It's the Sonie Islam that does not require Marja-eh-taghleed.

With respect to Ayesheh's age, what you say is not correct. She was not 17 or even close to that age (unless people would age twice as fast back then). Even assuming you are correct, could you remind us how old your Prophet was? Don't tell me he was 21 or something. Wasn't he in his mid 50's? Why would a Prophet in his 50's marry a 17 year old (according to you)? Weren't there enough women his own age? Why marry a kid?
1-as you said sunnis dont have to follow a marja.
2-age does not matter. he was 52-53 - but in that society it was ok as she has already been engaged to another man before him. if i am not mistaken, a cultural belief arabs had was that two good friends were as like brother and hence one could not marry the others daughter, just as they thought by calling their wife, "mother", they would be able to divorce them. maybe prophet did that to break these cultural taboos. i don't know, but the fact is, it was ok in that society, if not common. you see the same pattern with other prophets in the bible.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#43
General, your logic is flawed. First you accept these words are from God, and then you try to make sense of them based on your assumption that God would not insult women. My approach is to read the words and determine whether these words are from God. God could have simply said that women bear children for you, without using Tashbeeh. It's like saying men are like donkeys, and then you say that means that men work, and that's why God says that. Women are like women, not keshtzar or anything else. If you want to Tashbeeh your mother like a keshtzar, you are more than welcome.

You are not answering the second point, which is enter your Keshtzar anyway you desire (what Khomeni says about vaginally and annally).
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#44
1-as you said sunnis dont have to follow a marja.
2-age does not matter. he was 52-53 - but in that society it was ok as she has already been engaged to another man before him. if i am not mistaken, a cultural belief arabs had was that two good friends were as like brother and hence one could not marry the others daughter, just as they thought by calling their wife, "mother", they would be able to divorce them. maybe prophet did that to break these cultural taboos. i don't know, but the fact is, it was ok in that society, if not common. you see the same pattern with other prophets in the bible.
You are dodging the question. I know sunnis don't have to follow marja. If I may recall, some number over 90% of Iranians are Shias and not Sunnis. My point is that Shias must pick and follow a marja when they reach puberty. My other point was that books of other marja are very similar to Khomieni's. When you say a lot of what Khomeni says in his book is unIslamic, that means you are disagreeing with all marja, and Shia religion.

With respect to Mohammad's age, a Prophet should not be bound by his time. If that's the case, then he should not be the last Prophet. I guess he broke a huge taboo be having around 40 wives too. What does it mean that at the time it was OK? OK for who? OK for people who did not know any better 1400 years ago? It should not have been OK for a Prophet that was in contact with God. Don't you think that God should have told him that a man in his 50's should not marry a kid? Just like General, you first believe and then justify. With respect to other Prophets, you must also believe they were Prophets and then justofy their actions. If you look at the lives of all power hungry people in the past, they killed, they stole, they attacked, they burned, they destroyed and had sex with many women. What difference do you see here? Those other ones did not claim to be Prophets.

By the way, answer me this, if it is proven to you beyond a reasonable doubt that Ayesheh was 6 when she married Mohammed and he had sex with her at the age of 9, would you accept that he was not a Prophet?
 

Bauvafa

Bench Warmer
Oct 26, 2004
1,987
1
#45
The two things that akhoonds are experts in include eating and sexual acts... If they spent 1/10 of the time they do on other things the world would be a much better place.
They are angels compared to your Satanic Rabbis who still continue to harvest and trade human organs -- age old tradition for the devil. Sick bastards.
 
Last edited:

Bauvafa

Bench Warmer
Oct 26, 2004
1,987
1
#46
I heard its illegal to bring copies outside of Iran since this book has become a source of satire and jokes. Pretty interesting to think that an akhoond would know anything but about sex and eating.
It's sickening how you jews reflect your wickedness on other people.

Is it not in your satanic Talmud that says any Jew teaching the book (Talmud) to the Goyim should be slewed along with the Goyim????

Why so fearfull of teaching the word of "god" to the Goyim???
 
Aug 26, 2009
469
0
#47
You are dodging the question. I know sunnis don't have to follow marja. If I may recall, some number over 90% of Iranians are Shias and not Sunnis. My point is that Shias must pick and follow a marja when they reach puberty. My other point was that books of other marja are very similar to Khomieni's. When you say a lot of what Khomeni says in his book is unIslamic, that means you are disagreeing with all marja, and Shia religion.
I am not a shia. No where in Quran does it say a moslim has to pick a "marja" to follow. Its a myth created by mullahs in my opinion.

khomeini cherto pert ziad gofte, inam roosh.

With respect to Mohammad's age, a Prophet should not be bound by his time. If that's the case, then he should not be the last Prophet. I guess he broke a huge taboo be having around 40 wives too. What does it mean that at the time it was OK? OK for who? OK for people who did not know any better 1400 years ago? It should not have been OK for a Prophet that was in contact with God. Don't you think that God should have told him that a man in his 50's should not marry a kid? Just like General, you first believe and then justify. With respect to other Prophets, you must also believe they were Prophets and then justofy their actions. If you look at the lives of all power hungry people in the past, they killed, they stole, they attacked, they burned, they destroyed and had sex with many women. What difference do you see here? Those other ones did not claim to be Prophets.

By the way, answer me this, if it is proven to you beyond a reasonable doubt that Ayesheh was 6 when she married Mohammed and he had sex with her at the age of 9, would you accept that he was not a Prophet?
a prophet should not be "bound" by his time? ki gofte? they all lived in their own time and context. Just because the society today has set an age limit at 18 does not mean it woun't change in the future. So if a man marries an 18 year old today, and later in the century they decide 18 is no longer the legal standard, does it make that man immoral? no. ofcourse not.

40 wives? ki gofte? list them. lets see it. dont just throw numbers around. as far as i remember it was 8, and was married to one until she died. and the others exept for aisha and the egyptian one, where all old and poor.

solomon is said to have wives in the 800-1000...
having or not having wives is not a measure character. if it was, all the men who married one woman should be saints. and all the priests who molest childs should be angels (no wives there!)

there you go again with your rantings. you regurgitated the same theme before in the "cheeta" thread and others thread, without an ounce of backup. where did you read that the prophet stole? id like to see it. where did you read that he burned? show us the references. so we can all see it. id like to see it, but i dont expect much from a person who does not know makki from madani surahs.

on your last "challange" you will never be able to prove that beyond any reasonable doubt because I don't just listen to whatever other people say. I do my own research and may or maynot come to the same conclusions. I have already done my research on this subject so have fun with it.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#48
I am not a shia. No where in Quran does it say a moslim has to pick a "marja" to follow. Its a myth created by mullahs in my opinion.

khomeini cherto pert ziad gofte, inam roosh.



a prophet should not be "bound" by his time? ki gofte? they all lived in their own time and context. Just because the society today has set an age limit at 18 does not mean it woun't change in the future. So if a man marries an 18 year old today, and later in the century they decide 18 is no longer the legal standard, does it make that man immoral? no. ofcourse not.

40 wives? ki gofte? list them. lets see it. dont just throw numbers around. as far as i remember it was 8, and was married to one until she died. and the others exept for aisha and the egyptian one, where all old and poor.

solomon is said to have wives in the 800-1000...
having or not having wives is not a measure character. if it was, all the men who married one woman should be saints. and all the priests who molest childs should be angels (no wives there!)

there you go again with your rantings. you regurgitated the same theme before in the "cheeta" thread and others thread, without an ounce of backup. where did you read that the prophet stole? id like to see it. where did you read that he burned? show us the references. so we can all see it. id like to see it, but i dont expect much from a person who does not know makki from madani surahs.

on your last "challange" you will never be able to prove that beyond any reasonable doubt because I don't just listen to whatever other people say. I do my own research and may or maynot come to the same conclusions. I have already done my research on this subject so have fun with it.
What you don't get is that you are saying what's OK today or was OK in the past. I don't think a Prophet in his 50's should marry an 18-year old today, or in the past, etc. We are not talking about laws, we are talking about someone who is supposed to be in contact with God and better than anybody else and set examples.

I won't waste my keystrokes if you don't know how many tribes were destroyed by Mohammad and how many people were killed. This is no secret. You have buried your head. Regarding his wives, why don't you go read the book about the Wives of Mohammad? Of course, you can say it's lies or weak, but the book gives references.

Regarding my question, you did not answer me. I did not say that it will be proven to you (since I don't think anything can change your mind), but I said "if". If anyone who claimed to be a Prophet had sex with a 9-year old, would you accept that he is a Prophet?
 
May 9, 2004
15,167
179
#49
General, your logic is flawed. First you accept these words are from God, and then you try to make sense of them based on your assumption that God would not insult women. My approach is to read the words and determine whether these words are from God. God could have simply said that women bear children for you, without using Tashbeeh. It's like saying men are like donkeys, and then you say that means that men work, and that's why God says that. Women are like women, not keshtzar or anything else. If you want to Tashbeeh your mother like a keshtzar, you are more than welcome.

You are not answering the second point, which is enter your Keshtzar anyway you desire (what Khomeni says about vaginally and annally).
دوست گرامی
تشبیهات در هر زبان و فرهنگی وجود دارد
وقتی تشبیه بکار برده می شود که گوینده بخواهد مثالی را بزند شما می فرمایید اگر چنین بود چرا قران نگفته زنان شما بچه های شما را در رحم خود می پرورانند
خوب این که دیگر تشبیه نیست یک خبر است که همه می دانند و لازم به گفتن ان نیست
وقتی مادری به فرزندش می گوید تو عصای دست من هستی
این تشبیه است که مادر می خواهد نشان دهد که بدون فرزندش نمی تواند کاری انجام دهد و اتکای او بر فرزندش است
یعنی اگر بگوید تو پسر من هستی که دیگر موضوعی را که او بخواهد برساند نمی رساند
همه می دانند که او پسر مادرش است !!!!ا
اینجا فرزند نمی تواند انتقاد کند که به عصا تشبیه شده است
یک چوب خشک
زیرا منظور چیز دیگری است
انجا که قران می فرماید زنان کشتزار شما هستند یعنی
انها نطفه شما را می پرورانند و باید از انها نگهداری کامل را بنمایید
زیرا اگر بذری در زمینی قرار گیرد بدون مراعات کامل و مقومات پروراندن بذر از بین خواهد رفت
این تشبیهه بر عکس می خواهد بگوید که فقط این نیست که با زنان خود امرزش کنیدو انها را رها کنید تا بچه های شما و خودشان را بپرورانند
می گوید شما مسئول هستید که همانطور که کشتزار احتیاج به رعایت دارد زنانتان را رعایت کامل کنید
البته کشترزار احتیاج به ابیاری و اشیا دیگری دارد
زنان احتیاج به مهر و محبت و کمکهای مادی و معنوی
خود قران مومن را تشبیه به درخت میکند
ایا این توهین است ؟
خیر زیرا چنانکه گفتم تشبیهات معنا را می رساند نه اصل کلمه
باز خود قران مردان را تشبیهه به لباسی برای زنان کرده
ایا این توهین به مرد است
خیر
باز قران خانواده را تشبیهه به یک مزرعه کرده
ایا این توهین به خانواده است
خیر
خود شما این گونه تشبیهات را در زندگی روزانه استفاده می کنید
شما نمی توانید از قران خرده بگیرید
می ایید در مورد ارث دخترو پسر می نویسید
وقتی دیدی که انطور که شما می گویید نیست یعنی در جای دیگر زن بیشتر ارث می برد امده اید و کشتزار را یک توهین به زنان می بینید
نه علوم قرانی را می دانند نه تشبیهات لغوی
فقط یک چیزی شنیده ایدو می ایید پست می کنید

بله جانم
 
May 9, 2004
15,167
179
#50
What you don't get is that you are saying what's OK today or was OK in the past. I don't think a Prophet in his 50's should marry an 18-year old today, or in the past, etc. We are not talking about laws, we are talking about someone who is supposed to be in contact with God and better than anybody else and set examples.

I won't waste my keystrokes if you don't know how many tribes were destroyed by Mohammad and how many people were killed. This is no secret. You have buried your head. Regarding his wives, why don't you go read the book about the Wives of Mohammad? Of course, you can say it's lies or weak, but the book gives references.

Regarding my question, you did not answer me. I did not say that it will be proven to you (since I don't think anything can change your mind), but I said "if". If anyone who claimed to be a Prophet had sex with a 9-year old, would you accept that he is a Prophet?
دوست عزیز
در مورد ازدواج پیامبر به ترید بنده در همین سایت رجوع کنید
شما اشتباه می کنید اولا پیامبر چهل زن داشته
دوما عایشه نو ساله نبوده
سوما شما ارتباط تاریخ و اداب و رسوم اجتماع و جامعه را نمی شناسید
بروید در این مورد بیشتر مطالعه کنید


متشکرم
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#51
I misspoke about the number of wives that Mohammad had. It was 11-13, not around 40. I don't think this includes Kaniz that he could have sex with without marrying though.
 

RoozbehAzadi

National Team Player
Nov 19, 2002
4,272
0
#52
If anyone who claimed to be a Prophet had sex with a 9-year old, would you accept that he is a Prophet?
Yes, if I lived in the year 600 AD, and grew up in what is today known as Saudi Arabia, in a culture where a girl who hits puberty is known as a woman and ready for marriage and sex, then yes, I would accept him as a Prophet. Even less than 100 years ago in Iran, 14-year old girls were getting married to men 3 times their age. In the past, not just in Muslim cultures but in older cultures, a girl who hit puberty was a woman, whether at 8 or 18. Now today, in this day and age, it's disgusting. Maybe in 1000 years time, they'll look back at us and see promiscuous sex and having 3-somes and porn as being really degrading and disgusting, but today it's not seen as such but even seen as natural and modern. Yet in the future views could change, just like they have over the last 1,300 years.

The mistake a lot of Iranians outside Iran make, and I include a large number of LA satellite channels in this, is that they assume that most people in Iran hold a similar anti-Islam view as they do. They don't understand that these views cause many who might otherwise be against the IRI to now think that being against the IRI means holding views of Islam as an evil religion or Muhammad as a child rapist or so on. And so indirectly they're actually playing into the hands of the mullahs who say "See, we told you so! The Green Movement is against Islam and they even boast it."

The reality is that the anti-Islam group, even among Iranians outside Iran, is a minority. Inside Iran it's a smaller minority, and many people equate the braveness of Karroubi to stand against injustice as being in line with what the Prophet Muhammad and Ali did in their days.

Now obviously in a free Iran and a free vote, everyone can express their ideas and the people choose. My estimate is that the anti-Islam people might get 1 member in a democratic Majlis, out of perhaps 300 or more. The Shahis who simply identify with the Pahlavi regime would probably get about 10. Leftists and socialists would probably get around 50-60. Hizbollahis would maybe get around 10-20. And the rest would be split between religious nationalists like Bazargan and Ibrahim Yazdi, and secular nationalists like Mossadegh and the Foruhars. The extremes of Iranian society, whether Shahi, Hizbollahi, anti-Islam nationalists, etc.. would be on the fringes of society and not the general tendency of the population. And even now during the protests and struggle for change, instead of unifying, these extremes are causing fights at rallies outside of Iran and trying to extend their personal agendas rather than seeing the bigger issue. Obviously people will disagree, and I accept that. I love and respect all the Prophets, including outside of Islam like Buddha and Confucius. And some only are somewhat orthodox in their views and only believe in Islam. Others don't have a belief and don't care. And still others are anti-religion or anti-Islam and feel that no matter what the mores or standards of belief of thousands of years ago, what's wrong today is what's wrong 1 million years ago is what's wrong 1 million years from now. And so people believe what they want, and I don't think we're gonna change anyone's views here unless there was maybe some American dude who visits ISP for fun and wanted to convert to a religion and now won't convert to Islam. Otherwise, I think it's better to focus on the bigger issues rather than obsess about what people thousands of years ago did, the future flag, whether Iran should have 1 or 2 Majlis's, or whether Iran should build a space station on Mars or the Moon first. Now is not the time to create division over issues from the far past or future but to see the bigger picture and have unity on issues like freedom, democracy, and human rights.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#53
While I have no doubt that Muhamad was an extraordinary human being who was an overachiever in his life, his marriage to a 6 (or 7) years old will forever put some bad mark on his image therefore having people question his claim to be a prophet.

Of course, it is possible, like Jesus, that he did not claim he was a prophet, but rather, his supporters after his death made false proclaim.

A second problem is a man of god (prophet) would never draw sword on another man, nor support any any man killing, torturing, or enslaving another man or woman.

The world is not absolute but all religions teach people to accept the world as an absolute world.

The best thing is to accept and respect all that practice whatever religion or philosophy they practice, as long as they keep it to themselves and dont try to push their ways into others.

RoozbehAzadi, if god does exists, he has existed since the beginning of time, millions or billions of years. Such god knows what is right or wrong, since he talks about right/wrong and punishments for adulters, etc.. Dont think such god will have a problem realizing 10000000 years ago that sleeping with a 9 years old does not make sense.

But it is possible that these have been made rumors about Muhammad. That is why I prefer to live in the presence and future and not in the past.
 
Last edited:
Jun 18, 2005
10,889
5
#54
It looks like another one of them just got banned. Please please do not insult them. As long as you carry on your logical discussion they can not deal with it.

Thanks Admin. :4kerim:
 

RoozbehAzadi

National Team Player
Nov 19, 2002
4,272
0
#55
While I have no doubt that Muhamad was an extraordinary human being who was an overachiever in his life, his marriage to a 6 (or 7) years old will forever put some bad mark on his image therefore having people question his claim to be a prophet.

Of course, it is possible, like Jesus, that he did not claim he was a prophet, but rather, his supporters after his death made false proclaim.

A second problem is a man of god (prophet) would never draw sword on another man, nor support any any man killing, torturing, or enslaving another man or woman. Muhammad fails at both of these basic principals.

The world is not absolute but all religions teach people to accept the world as an absolute world.
I don't think religion is absolute or teaches absolutism but this is merely the interpretation of the followers. Unfortunately, this absolutism also applies to those against religion many times as well, and also of course with supporters of one religion against another.

My own interpretation is that all the Prophets, all around the world, were simply human beings who in one form or another were able to spiritually go beyond the limits of most people and thus were, especially in the older days, considered as Superhuman and looked at as Prophets as such. I doubt that any of them intended for themselves to be the Superheroes they are today and for religion to be some sort of organized set view like it's seen nowadays. My own guess is that they intended to show morality and this was also blended with their cultural upbringing and the time at which they lived.

I don't personally believe in heaven and hell and praying 5 times a day and so on, but I do believe that there's something more beyond this life and the physical, but that we definitely don't know enough about it yet and I think many times organized religion has hurt this intention to explore the realm of the spiritual because it has materialized everything into an inflexible context of this world, such as what we see with people having "holy lands" and other ways of making religion more materialistic and physical than it should be.

But regardless, I think that Islam has reached a point where big changes are happening similar to the changes in Christianity during the Reformation. And I also believe all world religions will also continue changing and be very different in centuries to come than they are now.
 

RoozbehAzadi

National Team Player
Nov 19, 2002
4,272
0
#57
It looks like another one of them just got banned. Please please do not insult them. As long as you carry on your logical discussion they can not deal with it.

Thanks Admin. :4kerim:
Yes, thank you Admin, it makes the conversation and debates more peaceful and respectful.
 

RoozbehAzadi

National Team Player
Nov 19, 2002
4,272
0
#58
RoozbehAzadi, if god does exists, he has existed since the beginning of time, millions or billions of years. Such god knows what is right or wrong, since he talks about right/wrong and punishments for adulters, etc.. Dont think such god will have a problem realizing 10000000 years ago that sleeping with a 9 years old does not make sense.

But it is possible that these have been made rumors about Muhammad. That is why I prefer to live in the presence and future and not in the past.
I think these are cultural issues we have to learn and improve on. Gays were killed all around the world 1000 years ago, even 200-300 years ago here in the US they were killing "witches." Yet society changes and grows up and this is up to us to do, not God. I don't think of God as being a mysterious being up in the sky we can reach in a spaceship, but as the essence of who we are that unfortunately gets tarnished as we grow. Babies are probably closest to God as they are the most innocent and least effected by the material world. To cleanse the soul, such that we become like what Hafez said, a drop in the ocean called God, is how I see religion. God can help us understand, but not do it for us. God isn't a being outside but within when we purify our thoughts enough. God is love, and yet love isn't always easy or about pleasure either. A soccer player who dribbles down the field and scores a magnificent goal is closer to God in that instant than a priest or imam. God isn't an equation or simply what a book says, but something to explore within ourselves, within our hearts.
 
Jun 18, 2005
10,889
5
#59
What I particularly like about this movement that it tends to question just about everything and cross any made up boundaries.

What happened on the Qods day was pretty significant and if you a pay visit to sites such as Balatarin you would see that they do dare to openly question and discuss the role that Ali, Hassan, or Hussein may have played in the invasion of Iran.

Or why would we be praising them for a whole month if they for instance took part in a battle with Iranians. Now not just Iranians, killing anyone for that matter. I personally am not a big favorite of religions that push aside logic and use force to spread their message.

Would not this go against god's message that people should be free to choose? What was up with all those wars and "spreading the message of god by sword"?
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#60
Roozbeh, we seem to be in agreement about most.

From Siddharta by Hermann Hesse:
Govinda said . . . Have you not discovered certain knowledge yourself that has helped you to live? It would give me great pleasure if you would tell me something about this?
Siddhartha said . . . Wisdom is not communicable. The wisdom which a wise man tries to communicate always sounds foolish. . . . Knowledge can be communicated but not wisdom. One can find it, live it, be fortified by it, do wonders through it, but one cannot communicate and teach it.​


I, too, believe that Muhamad, Jesus, and Moses were all extraordinary human beings who were spiritual like Budha who were able to get awareness and the high wisdom. Problem arised after their death, when their supporters tried to teach their wisdom as if possible, thus creating all most of the problems the world experiences today especially with sex and morality.

Muhammad was a human being and just like others made mistakes. But for a majority of his supporters to admit to that today, will imply that he was not a prophet of god. But living is about being courageous, taking risks and making mistakes.

Muhamad today would laugh at the image the people have created of him, just like Budha, Moses and others. Human being love making stories and living within the safe boundaries it creates.

I don't think religion is absolute or teaches absolutism but this is merely the interpretation of the followers. Unfortunately, this absolutism also applies to those against religion many times as well, and also of course with supporters of one religion against another.

My own interpretation is that all the Prophets, all around the world, were simply human beings who in one form or another were able to spiritually go beyond the limits of most people and thus were, especially in the older days, considered as Superhuman and looked at as Prophets as such. I doubt that any of them intended for themselves to be the Superheroes they are today and for religion to be some sort of organized set view like it's seen nowadays. My own guess is that they intended to show morality and this was also blended with their cultural upbringing and the time at which they lived.

I don't personally believe in heaven and hell and praying 5 times a day and so on, but I do believe that there's something more beyond this life and the physical, but that we definitely don't know enough about it yet and I think many times organized religion has hurt this intention to explore the realm of the spiritual because it has materialized everything into an inflexible context of this world, such as what we see with people having "holy lands" and other ways of making religion more materialistic and physical than it should be.

But regardless, I think that Islam has reached a point where big changes are happening similar to the changes in Christianity during the Reformation. And I also believe all world religions will also continue changing and be very different in centuries to come than they are now.