lol!!! like a fucking robot 
Here are some references for Ayesheh being six when married and having intercourse at nine. This is from MuslimHope, so don't claim copyright infringement:
1. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.
1a.
"Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.
1b.
The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152.
1c.
"Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65
1d.
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119
1e.
"Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah’s Apostle in the morning and in the evening." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158. Thus ‘Aisha was either not very old or not born yet when her parents became Muslims. This is consistent with her being a child when her marriage with Mohammed was consummated.
2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.
This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths.
2a.
"(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She too hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716
2b.
"(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."
(3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and here dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.
(3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and here dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.
2c.
"(5981) ’A’isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.
2d.
(5982) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters with a slight variation of wording." Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299
3. Sunan Abu Dawud
817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.
3a.
"(2116) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569
3b.
"(4913) ‘A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373
Note carefully this is NOT saying Mohammed had intercourse with A’isha while her playmates were watching. Rather it says the playmates played with her, and they went out when Mohammed came by, and could come back after he left.
Note carefully this is NOT saying Mohammed had intercourse with A’isha while her playmates were watching. Rather it says the playmates played with her, and they went out when Mohammed came by, and could come back after he left.
3c.
"(4915) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Abu Dawud said : That is to say : I menstruated, and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari (Helpers) in it. They said : With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374
Abu Dawud said : That is to say : I menstruated, and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari (Helpers) in it. They said : With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374
3d.
(5916) [typo, really 4916] The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Abu Usamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: ‘With good fortune.’ She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4916 p.1374
3e.
(4917) ‘A’ishah said: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were [sp] up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4917 p.1374
3f.
(4918) The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Hisham b. ‘Urwah through a different chain of narrators. This version adds: I was swinging and I had my friends. They brought me to a house ; there were some women of the Ansar (Helpers). They said : With good luck and blessing. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4918 p.1374
3g.
(4919) ‘A’ishah said : We came to Medina and stayed with Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. She said : I swear by Allah, I was swinging between two date-palms. Then my mother came, and made me come down; and I had my hair up to the ears. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915-4919 p.1374.
Conclusion on Abu Dawud:
7 references and no counter-references affirm that A’isha was nine.
4. Tirmidhi
825-892 A.D. 209-279 A.H.
"..Ahmad and Is'haq said that if a female orphan reaches nine years old and was wed with her consent, then the marriage is permissible and she will have no choice when she matures. The two relied on a hadith by Ai'sha stating that the prophet peace be upon him had sexual relations with her when she was nine. Aisha said, if the little girl reaches nine then she is a woman" Tirmidhi said: A good hadith. (Tirmidhi, "Marriage according to Allah's apostle", #1027)
5. Sunan Nas’ai
830-915 A.D. 215-303 A.H.
5a. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was six and had intercourse with her when she was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3255)
5b. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was seven and had intercourse with me when I was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)
5c. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was nine and I accompanied him for nine years. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3257)
5d. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was nine and died when she was eighteen. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3258)
5e. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was six and had intercourse with me when I was nine and I was playing with dolls. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)
Note that the previous are in original Arabic, but were not in the English translation. However, the English translator at the front wrote the following under #18.
"When Hadrat 'A'isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat 'A'isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #18 p.108-109 (English material at the front)
Note that she had nine years of married life with Mohammed, and since he died when she was eighteen, she was nine years old when she started her married life with Mohammed.
Conclusion on Sunan Nasa'i: Not counting English translation notes, the Arabic has 5 references and no counter-references to affirm that A’isha was nine. 5b. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was seven and had intercourse with me when I was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)
5c. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was nine and I accompanied him for nine years. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3257)
5d. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was nine and died when she was eighteen. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3258)
5e. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was six and had intercourse with me when I was nine and I was playing with dolls. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)
Note that the previous are in original Arabic, but were not in the English translation. However, the English translator at the front wrote the following under #18.
"When Hadrat 'A'isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat 'A'isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #18 p.108-109 (English material at the front)
Note that she had nine years of married life with Mohammed, and since he died when she was eighteen, she was nine years old when she started her married life with Mohammed.
6. Ibn-i-Majah 824-886/887 A.D. 273 A.H.
6a.
A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1876 p.133
6b.
A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1877 p.134.
7. The Historian ibn Ishaq - died 767/773 A.D. 145/151 A.H.
7a.
"Yahya b. Abbad b. Abdullah b. al-Zubayr from his father told me that he heard Aisha say: "The apostle died in my bosom during my turn: I had wronged none in regard to him. It was due to my ignorance and extreme youth that the apostle died in my arms.""
(Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, page 682). A’isha said she was an extreme youth when Mohammed died.
(Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, page 682). A’isha said she was an extreme youth when Mohammed died.
8. The Historian al-Tabari - died 923 A.D.
8a.
‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.
8b.
‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.
[FONT=Times New oman,Times New Roman][/FONT]8c.
Aisha died in June-July 678 A.D. (A.H. 58) at the age of 66. That would make her born in 610 A.D.. al-Tabari says she consummated her marriage with the prophet when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.171,173. (al-Tabari wrote 38 volumes of history, plus a 39th volume called Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors.)
[FONT=Times New oman,Times New Roman][/FONT]X 8c. On the other hand
, al-Tabari also wrote that i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period." (Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, vol.4, p.50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979. al-Tabari vol.11 p.141 also mentions this, with footnote 766 saying al-Tabari has a conflict here. The footnote also says that al-Baladhuri’s Ansab I, p.409-411; Ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 supports her being married by 9 years old.
The funny thing is that regardless of how much proof you show to the Islamist and Islam’s followers they would never agree. If they are capable they would cut your head off just like Islam suggests. It’s a known fact that she was 6 when she was given to Muhammad and he had sex with her at 9. There is no doubt that Muhammad was a sexual predator and not a prophet. I have seen lists that put the number of his wives in the upward of forty or fifty or more. What man of god was this? The same applies to Ali and Hassan and we all know what Hussein died over. All these Islamic figures were nothing but uneducated womanizers and yet some name their kids after them and pray to them. Truly disgusting.
1) islam suggests cutting head? where? show me where
2) no doubt a predator? a person who stays with his wife until she passes away, a person who marries old women out of mercy is a "sexual" predator?
3) Where is the list that you have seen? share it please.
4) posting about breasts and tits is not womanizing? speaking without knowledge is not being uneducated?
5) Pray to them? who "Prays" to them? thats Shirk and against islam.
2) no doubt a predator? a person who stays with his wife until she passes away, a person who marries old women out of mercy is a "sexual" predator?
3) Where is the list that you have seen? share it please.
4) posting about breasts and tits is not womanizing? speaking without knowledge is not being uneducated?
5) Pray to them? who "Prays" to them? thats Shirk and against islam.
Dear Thinkpad,
Forget about the source. As far as I am concerned MuslimHope could be run by the worst criminals or whoeverelse, the point is that these are references to books that are well known history books of Islam. They give specific references to volumes, page nos., etc. Unless you open those books and the text is not where they say it is, it does not matter which website is the source.
Forget about the source. As far as I am concerned MuslimHope could be run by the worst criminals or whoeverelse, the point is that these are references to books that are well known history books of Islam. They give specific references to volumes, page nos., etc. Unless you open those books and the text is not where they say it is, it does not matter which website is the source.
He stayed with his wife until she died because he had no choice.
Do you know how many husbands Muhammad killed and took their wives? Why don't you tell me how many wives he had since you are the expert on the subject!!
A number of reputable sources has been posted by Ardesheer from Islamic writings and you are saying the place that it came from is anti Islam? such basic rebuttal
Do you know how many husbands Muhammad killed and took their wives? Why don't you tell me how many wives he had since you are the expert on the subject!!
A number of reputable sources has been posted by Ardesheer from Islamic writings and you are saying the place that it came from is anti Islam? such basic rebuttal
(1) There is a part in Koran that does say cut opposing hand and leg, and throw off a [cliff], not sure about cutting heads in Koran, although it happened during their wars.
(2) Koran says that it's OK to sleep with Kaniz (or slave) without marriage, and that Mohammad could marry his cousins and wife of adopted son.
(3) I would like to see that too. I found a list of 11-13, I believe prmenant wives. If you add sigheh and kaniz ....?
(4) I am not sure what this is about, but that would have another word, and I don't think it would be called womanizing.
(5) I guess being a Sunni, you don't, but again at least Shia's do.
(2) Koran says that it's OK to sleep with Kaniz (or slave) without marriage, and that Mohammad could marry his cousins and wife of adopted son.
(3) I would like to see that too. I found a list of 11-13, I believe prmenant wives. If you add sigheh and kaniz ....?
(4) I am not sure what this is about, but that would have another word, and I don't think it would be called womanizing.
(5) I guess being a Sunni, you don't, but again at least Shia's do.
Dear Ardesheer when I have sometime I will find the list with all the sources and put it up. Another funny thing is that Muhammad had more than 4 wives at a time but since he brought the Quran a verse came that made it OK for him to do so. I do not have the details and sources here at work but will try to get it and post it later.
Anytime you make a reference to Quran do everyone a favor and give a citation. Alqaeda does the samerhing by half quoting Quran as it suits them.
So please show me where it says cut HEAD as you mentioned earlier.
Also shoe me where it says to cut off hand legs. There are several places but context is different.
So please show me where it says cut HEAD as you mentioned earlier.
Also shoe me where it says to cut off hand legs. There are several places but context is different.
I did not say cutting head. I thought someones else did. Cutting opposing hand and leg (I did) is cruel, inhumane and unacceptable in any "context". Of course, someone may say it was OK 1400 years ago, which takes us back to what you expect from a Messenger of God.
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..." Quran 5:33
Muslim (16:4131) - They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. Muhammad had two killers put to death, not in the way of "an eye-for-an-eye," but in a more agonizing manner.
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..." Quran 5:33
Muslim (16:4131) - They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. Muhammad had two killers put to death, not in the way of "an eye-for-an-eye," but in a more agonizing manner.
Yes, there is an exception in Quran about Mohammad's wives that only apply to him and not others. I am not sure why it's even in Quran if it's just for him. Why should others even care to know? Here's a list of at least 13 of his wives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives)
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_bint_Khuwaylid"]Khadijah bint Khuwaylid[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawda_bint_Zama"]Sawda bint Zama[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha"]Aisha bint Abi Bakr[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafsa_bint_Umar"]Hafsa bint Umar[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Khuzayma"]Zaynab bint Khuzayma[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Salama_Hind_bint_Abi_Umayya"]Hind bint Abi Umayya[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Jahsh"]Zaynab bint Jahsh[/ame]
Juwayriya bint al-Harith
Ramlah bint Abi-Sufyan
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana"]Rayhana bint Zayd[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy"]Safiyya bint Huyayy[/ame]
Maymuna bint al-Harith
Maria al-Qibtiyya
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_bint_Khuwaylid"]Khadijah bint Khuwaylid[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawda_bint_Zama"]Sawda bint Zama[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha"]Aisha bint Abi Bakr[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafsa_bint_Umar"]Hafsa bint Umar[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Khuzayma"]Zaynab bint Khuzayma[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Salama_Hind_bint_Abi_Umayya"]Hind bint Abi Umayya[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Jahsh"]Zaynab bint Jahsh[/ame]
Juwayriya bint al-Harith
Ramlah bint Abi-Sufyan
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana"]Rayhana bint Zayd[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy"]Safiyya bint Huyayy[/ame]
Maymuna bint al-Harith
Maria al-Qibtiyya
Not sure how to upload the excel file... but I found a site which pretty much says what I have calculated in my excel. you are welcome to review the site at http://www.easenews.net/?p=4833 or a pdf from a shia site (just so you know both shia and sunni agree) http://www.shia-nj.org/htm/Aisha Age1.1.pdf
According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
• Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
• Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
• Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
• According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
• According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
• According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
A perusal of the Quran will reveal that marriage in Islam is a civil contract, meesaaq (4:21), and as such it can be finalised only between persons who are intellectually and physically mature enough to understand and fulfill the responsibilities of such a contract. This can be further understood from the verse; “And test the orphans until they reach the age of nikah (marriage), and if you find in them rushdh (maturity of intellect) release their property to them.”(4:6). It may be noted here that the Quran makes intellectual maturity (which always falls beyond the age of puberty) the basis to arrive at the age of marriage. This is also in conformity with the Quranic description of marriage as emotional bonding between two mutually compatible persons through which they seek “to dwell in tranquility” (see 7:189 and 30:21) in the companionship of each other which is not possible if either of the spouses is mentally undeveloped.
This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina.
Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.
This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.
According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
• Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
• Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
• Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
• According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
• According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
• According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
A perusal of the Quran will reveal that marriage in Islam is a civil contract, meesaaq (4:21), and as such it can be finalised only between persons who are intellectually and physically mature enough to understand and fulfill the responsibilities of such a contract. This can be further understood from the verse; “And test the orphans until they reach the age of nikah (marriage), and if you find in them rushdh (maturity of intellect) release their property to them.”(4:6). It may be noted here that the Quran makes intellectual maturity (which always falls beyond the age of puberty) the basis to arrive at the age of marriage. This is also in conformity with the Quranic description of marriage as emotional bonding between two mutually compatible persons through which they seek “to dwell in tranquility” (see 7:189 and 30:21) in the companionship of each other which is not possible if either of the spouses is mentally undeveloped.
This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina.
Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.
This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.
در مورد سن عایشه ام المومنین
http://forums.iransportspress.com/showthread.php?t=56150&highlight=Group+Sex
http://forums.iransportspress.com/showthread.php?t=56150&highlight=Group+Sex
someone said Quran says to cut their heads... i think it was you, or it may have been pooya. but in anycase that comment right there shows me the person does not know what he is talking about.
سزاى كسانى كه با خدا و پيامبر او مىجنگند و در زمين به فساد مىكوشند جز اين نيست كه كشته شوند يا بر دار آويخته گردند يا دست و پايشان در خلاف جهتيكديگر بريده شود يا از آن سرزمين تبعيد گردند اين رسوايى آنان در دنياست و در آخرت عذابى بزرگ خواهند داشت (5:33)
now why would they want to start a war a man who had no quarrel with them other than enjoying them to do good and to believe in ONE GOD
Any Hadis that does not read with Quran is null.
According to this hadis, these 8 people who were reportedly captured and killed, were from a pagan tribe who had accepted islam. They got sick and prophet prescribed a remedy and they became better, but instead of thanking the prophet, they killed the shepard and drove away the camels.
You take issue with "cutting feet and eyes"...and i do too. Which is why I cannot accept this hadis as authentic. Quran says:
و اگر عقوبت كرديد همان گونه كه مورد عقوبت قرار گرفتهايد [متجاوز را ] به عقوبت رسانيد و اگر صبر كنيد البته آن براى شكيبايان بهتر است (16:126)
So Can you imagine prophet going against the words of Quran? would he not lose respect? This hadis is null and you can find alot of hadis that make absolutely no sense. Quran is the measuring stick for a moslim.
سزاى كسانى كه با خدا و پيامبر او مىجنگند و در زمين به فساد مىكوشند جز اين نيست كه كشته شوند يا بر دار آويخته گردند يا دست و پايشان در خلاف جهتيكديگر بريده شود يا از آن سرزمين تبعيد گردند اين رسوايى آنان در دنياست و در آخرت عذابى بزرگ خواهند داشت (5:33)
The condition for that punishment is that they have to FIGHT the prophet. and a moslim cannot just start a fight because Quran says
و در راه خدا با كسانى كه با شما مىجنگند بجنگيد ولى از اندازه درنگذريد زيرا خداوند تجاوزكاران را دوست نمىدارد (2:190)
now why would they want to start a war a man who had no quarrel with them other than enjoying them to do good and to believe in ONE GOD
Any Hadis that does not read with Quran is null.
According to this hadis, these 8 people who were reportedly captured and killed, were from a pagan tribe who had accepted islam. They got sick and prophet prescribed a remedy and they became better, but instead of thanking the prophet, they killed the shepard and drove away the camels.
You take issue with "cutting feet and eyes"...and i do too. Which is why I cannot accept this hadis as authentic. Quran says:
و اگر عقوبت كرديد همان گونه كه مورد عقوبت قرار گرفتهايد [متجاوز را ] به عقوبت رسانيد و اگر صبر كنيد البته آن براى شكيبايان بهتر است (16:126)
So Can you imagine prophet going against the words of Quran? would he not lose respect? This hadis is null and you can find alot of hadis that make absolutely no sense. Quran is the measuring stick for a moslim.
yeah bro Pele was a better player, but if I had to choose one for a fantasy team it would definitely be Cruyff
of course man, 2Pac did all he did by 24, imagine if lived longer and what he could've written
Thank you Ardesheer jaan, I agree we have to agree to disagree. Here's my views on the various points you made:
I think Muhammad was the last Abrahamic prophet but as Lordofmordor said, I don't think there's any requirement or limitation of who is or isn't a prophet, and that any individual can attain that level of spiritual enlightenment. Many have but aren't famous or known that well throughout history.
I also believe the laws he proposed would survive yet be changed, or at least modified. Perhaps we don't need to pray 5 times a day yet still need prayer in one form or another. Perhaps Ramadan can't be done when people move to Mars the same ways it's been done here on Earth.
Sleeping with a 9-year old who's gone through puberty and is physically a woman was the norm in that day and age. In those times, if somebody was gay he would be killed almost immediately. In those times, if somebody was committing adultery they would be stoned. Those rules applied then, but not to now, mostly because of the cultural basis and bias behind them to begin with.
I also think Khomeini took a too literal view of Islam and didn't realize this until he actually had real power in Iran. My personal view is that if Khomeini survived until this day, he would force all akhounds to exit politics and not have allowed those like Poop and the Sepah to gain power. He was too naive and also too inflexible, which is why those around him were able to take advantage of him to persuade him to continue the Iran-Iraq war as well as to allow clergy to mix with politics and also not to restart relations with the US.
However, I disagree with the inflexibility of most Muslim clergy in their views, which are similar to the rigidity and absolutism of other clergy in other religions. One of the biggest flaws all these religions make is to look at the teachings of thousands of years ago with such a literal and black/white view that they can't change it or improve upon it.
No, I simply disagree with the assumption that God gave us a series of laws and moral codes and expected us to be dumb and not improve upon them in 2000 years. One of Muhammad's best quotes is "One good thought is worth more than 100 prayers." All those laws and rules were made in that culture at that time and needed to be adapted to the changing times and cultures as well, rather than impeded to stay frozen in that original context.
I disagree. I think anybody can determine how Islam applies to the modern age and that there isn't a need for a new Prophet to tell us what to do or not to do. I don't need anybody telling me that sleeping with a 9-year old is wrong because I grew up in this day and age when it is wrong. However, if I grew up in Arabia in the year 600AD, I would have a completely different set of moral codes and understanding. I believe God expects us to understand more and progress in such fashion, which is seen, for example, in how women have so many more rights today than 100 years ago. We don't need a "Prophet" to tell us this, and yet in today's modern world, when applying the principle of respecting women that Islam and other religions teach, somebody could interpret that to mean, rather than roosari or such, that you shouldn't simply look at a woman as a sexual object and treat her more fairly as a person.
I think your expectation is tainted by the time and culture in which you have grown up as well as a lot of hate for the IRI which has forced the Islam of 1,300 years ago down peoples throats. Similarly, during the revolution, because Persian pride was forced down peoples throats by the Shah, many people became disillusioned with Persian history and wanted to focus on the Islamic aspects of Iran's identity.
It was a great thread when I left it yesterday, but now I come back and people are talking about how Islam says you must cut peoples heads off. I hope it goes back to what it was when you and I were discussing religion yesterday.
I don't think God sanctioned slavery or the Muslim conquests of neighboring lands, or even the sleeping men with women under the age of 18. But at the same time, Muhammad, just like all people of the time, was a human being and God revealed himself to him, whether it was in meditation or a dream or some other means that I can't comprehend, in a manner that he understands. So I don't equate what the Muslims did back then in a manner similar to Hitler's killing of 12 million people in concentration camps because of thinking Germans are racially superior to others. And I remember reading about how Muhammad praised an African prayer leader who yells the evening prayers from the Mosque for his passion, when Africans back then were looked down on. Islam has also talked about equality of races and how discrimination of race is wrong in various forms throughout history. I don't see this as absolutism that since slavery existed back then, or since women back then got married right after puberty, that that is equal to nowadays and the standards we uphold today. I see him as a spiritual leader of that time, from that land, and who's teachings should be updated but haven't been. Islam today is like continuing to use Windows 1.0 that Bill Gates made in the 80s on computers 1000 years from now. It makes now sense, and it's not Bill Gates' fault if Windows 1.0 runs too slow 1000 years from now, and we don't need another Prophet Bill Gates to show us the way. We have to do it ourselves, whether Bill Gates and Microsoft are still involved or not. Similarly, Islam has been held back and needs a huge update, as well as anti-virus software to deal with those like the mullahs and al-qaeda.
I believe the mighty God sent Muhammad with a message that became a book, and that book needs to be revised and updated to today's edition. Abdol Karim Souroush said it best when he said we don't use the same science textbooks of 2000 years ago yet Islam is still the same as back then.
Also, back then, unlike today where turning 18 is when somebody becomes a man or a woman in todays' societies, men and women were defined by puberty. Thus, if a boy turned 14 and had gone through puberty, he was no longer a child. If a girl turned 8 or 9 or 14 and had just gone through puberty, she was no longer a child. They were considered as adults, and thus they didn't see themselves as having sex with a child but with an adult. Puberty was the determining factor in this back then, not age.
I say that God is not black and white to see the culture and customs of one time and place as equating to those of another time and place, such that he explains in a manner of that time and place and expects men to change and adopt what he has taught them as they change their culture and customs as well. And so I expect a God to have a different view of an American pilot who is ordered to drop a bomb that ends up having collateral damage of 100 innocent civilians, from somebody like Timothy McVeigh who goes out to blow up a building where there are hundreds of innocent civilians.
I believe that God expects people to be more flexible and less absolute than what either those who are religious, or anti-religion, have shown to be. Otherwise we become stuck in a mentality that shuts off the possibility of growth and openness to new people and ideas.
I agree 100% on this. In fact I think the difference will be even bigger, since if it is changed and modernized enough, Islam will be a religion that says that it is only one path of many ways, and that you can even create your own path if you're in harmony with your soul. I believe there's a phrase in the Quran or in some other Muslim text that says something akin to how Islam should adapt. I honestly don't think that Muhammad or any of the other prophets back then ever would've thought that their followers would end up just wanting to copycat their era and culture. Another big problem is that Islam has become politicized and this dragged the religion back even more, because modernity was seen as westernization and Muslim cultures simply looked backwards too much rather than looking and moving forward.
Another point I want to make is that we don't know how much of the Quran is actually what Muhammad said, and how much was added and edited by his followers later on. Plus all the other sayings and books that are followed to the word that are outside of Quran could've been edited even more according to what the followers who held certain cultural beliefs thought. Just like I don't see the Bible or Torah as being the same exact as when they were first written, I don't see the Quran as being in that manner either. Plus, the Quran would've been written differently, just like those other two books would've as well, if they were written by a prophet who was born in Thailand or Australia rather than the middle east. A lot of cultural background has its effect in what's said in any religion. This should be examined in revising the Quran and Islam as a whole.
I feel that the main points like on prayer and fasting to honor those in worse conditions than us are the base around which a new modernized Islam needs to be built. But prayer, in my view, should simply be a meditation and personal, not necessarily reciting the same words that others say, and not in a language you don't know. I think it becomes more honest that way, and more attuned to what Islam was created for rather than all the frills and extras that are from that cultural history.
I think this is a debatable issue with some saying she was 9 and others saying she was in her early or mid teens. However, I think it's beside the point because back in those days a man or woman was determined by whether or not they were able to reproduce, and thus a child who had gone through puberty was considered an adult back then while today our standards are based on the age of 18 or 21 sometimes.
I don't think you can prove a religion or spiritual belief or disprove it either. It requires faith.
No, I think you're being just as black and white as hizbollahis in your anti-Islam bias as they are in their in their views of Islam. To a certain extent, I think you're reacting against them for forcing their views in Iran. But at the same time you're being just as simple and inflexible as them. I don't want to cut your head off.
I didn't know it was a known fact, because from what I've heard and read, it seems to be a point of controversy where some say it was 9, and others say it was in her teens. Regardless, adulthood was determined by puberty and the ability to give birth back then.
Well, in the minds of hizbollahis of Iran, there is no doubt that Poop was fairly and freely elected and that most people in Iran support the IRI and Poop.
Today, if somebody slept with a 9-year old it would be, and should be, considered as rape no matter what.
Back then, when a child physically became an adult, they were considered as an adult and thus were supposed to marry. With boys it was more difficult because they had to make a business and have enough income to support a wife before getting married. But women were give by their families to the best man available once they had physically become women and were able to conceive children.
This is not true. Muhammad had 11 wives throughout his life, and many of these were for political alliance reasons. This is again linked to the culture of the time, when even in the Persian Empire polygamy occurred. Plus he had these wives before the revelation that's revealed in the Quran that says there should be a limit of 4 wives.
In today's day and age, this should be 1 wife, obviously, and Islam needs to change to this standard. It reminds me of reading about how Muhammad was first told by God that his followers need to pray 50 times a day, and when he said that this isn't possible, God changed this to 5 times a day. Perhaps nowadays, once a day is enough, such that a person wishes health and success for his friends and family.
This reminds me of LA satellite TV which is absolutely unpopular and ridiculed, especially in Iran including by those against the IRI. Those in Iran who hold LA satellite TV views on Islam are a smaller minority than even hizbollahis in Iran, probably on par in terms of their numbers with the mko.
Unfortunately, Iranian society has these extremes just like American society has Glenn Beck who thinks Obama is a vampire and Michael Moore who thinks the stock market should be closed. However, fortunately in the US there's democracy while in Iran or those extremes are the ones in power.
I have to agree with Think Pad on this. Would you consider Mein Kampf as a source to understand Jews? Would you consider Poop's speeches as a source to understand the middle east? What about Fox News, is that the best source to understand President Obama? Of course not, and thus the source does matter. A site that's trying to convert Muslims to Christianity isn't the best source on Islam or its background.
(1) This is a cultural issue, since in Saudi Arabia they still do it. The Koran can be changed and cutting heads, or even executing people, isn't necessary in this day and age.
(2) Ardesheer, could you show these verses please?
(3) Muhammad had no sigheh since this is something the Shia later added to Islam. However I've understood that there were 11 wives and yet it was before the revelation limiting Muslims to 4 wives.
(4) Indeed, in the future 1000 years from now, they make look at porn and such of now the same way we look at men sleeping with a child who had gone through puberty 1000 years ago. And just like we judge the people of the past and say that it was sick, those 1000 years from now may judge us as being disgusting.
(5) Nobody prays to the messengers but they do pray to God. Even Muhammad made a point of how he didn't want his image to be worshiped. However, I personally see this not in the extreme literal sense that we can't draw a picture of Muhammad or have a film that depicts him, but that people shouldn't focus on the messenger so much as the message. Nonetheless, the fact that he said this itself garners immense respect for him.
of course man, 2Pac did all he did by 24, imagine if lived longer and what he could've written
Thank you Ardesheer jaan, I agree we have to agree to disagree. Here's my views on the various points you made:
I think Muhammad was the last Abrahamic prophet but as Lordofmordor said, I don't think there's any requirement or limitation of who is or isn't a prophet, and that any individual can attain that level of spiritual enlightenment. Many have but aren't famous or known that well throughout history.
I also believe the laws he proposed would survive yet be changed, or at least modified. Perhaps we don't need to pray 5 times a day yet still need prayer in one form or another. Perhaps Ramadan can't be done when people move to Mars the same ways it's been done here on Earth.
Sleeping with a 9-year old who's gone through puberty and is physically a woman was the norm in that day and age. In those times, if somebody was gay he would be killed almost immediately. In those times, if somebody was committing adultery they would be stoned. Those rules applied then, but not to now, mostly because of the cultural basis and bias behind them to begin with.
I also think Khomeini took a too literal view of Islam and didn't realize this until he actually had real power in Iran. My personal view is that if Khomeini survived until this day, he would force all akhounds to exit politics and not have allowed those like Poop and the Sepah to gain power. He was too naive and also too inflexible, which is why those around him were able to take advantage of him to persuade him to continue the Iran-Iraq war as well as to allow clergy to mix with politics and also not to restart relations with the US.
However, I disagree with the inflexibility of most Muslim clergy in their views, which are similar to the rigidity and absolutism of other clergy in other religions. One of the biggest flaws all these religions make is to look at the teachings of thousands of years ago with such a literal and black/white view that they can't change it or improve upon it.
No, I simply disagree with the assumption that God gave us a series of laws and moral codes and expected us to be dumb and not improve upon them in 2000 years. One of Muhammad's best quotes is "One good thought is worth more than 100 prayers." All those laws and rules were made in that culture at that time and needed to be adapted to the changing times and cultures as well, rather than impeded to stay frozen in that original context.
I disagree. I think anybody can determine how Islam applies to the modern age and that there isn't a need for a new Prophet to tell us what to do or not to do. I don't need anybody telling me that sleeping with a 9-year old is wrong because I grew up in this day and age when it is wrong. However, if I grew up in Arabia in the year 600AD, I would have a completely different set of moral codes and understanding. I believe God expects us to understand more and progress in such fashion, which is seen, for example, in how women have so many more rights today than 100 years ago. We don't need a "Prophet" to tell us this, and yet in today's modern world, when applying the principle of respecting women that Islam and other religions teach, somebody could interpret that to mean, rather than roosari or such, that you shouldn't simply look at a woman as a sexual object and treat her more fairly as a person.
I think your expectation is tainted by the time and culture in which you have grown up as well as a lot of hate for the IRI which has forced the Islam of 1,300 years ago down peoples throats. Similarly, during the revolution, because Persian pride was forced down peoples throats by the Shah, many people became disillusioned with Persian history and wanted to focus on the Islamic aspects of Iran's identity.
It was a great thread when I left it yesterday, but now I come back and people are talking about how Islam says you must cut peoples heads off. I hope it goes back to what it was when you and I were discussing religion yesterday.
I don't think God sanctioned slavery or the Muslim conquests of neighboring lands, or even the sleeping men with women under the age of 18. But at the same time, Muhammad, just like all people of the time, was a human being and God revealed himself to him, whether it was in meditation or a dream or some other means that I can't comprehend, in a manner that he understands. So I don't equate what the Muslims did back then in a manner similar to Hitler's killing of 12 million people in concentration camps because of thinking Germans are racially superior to others. And I remember reading about how Muhammad praised an African prayer leader who yells the evening prayers from the Mosque for his passion, when Africans back then were looked down on. Islam has also talked about equality of races and how discrimination of race is wrong in various forms throughout history. I don't see this as absolutism that since slavery existed back then, or since women back then got married right after puberty, that that is equal to nowadays and the standards we uphold today. I see him as a spiritual leader of that time, from that land, and who's teachings should be updated but haven't been. Islam today is like continuing to use Windows 1.0 that Bill Gates made in the 80s on computers 1000 years from now. It makes now sense, and it's not Bill Gates' fault if Windows 1.0 runs too slow 1000 years from now, and we don't need another Prophet Bill Gates to show us the way. We have to do it ourselves, whether Bill Gates and Microsoft are still involved or not. Similarly, Islam has been held back and needs a huge update, as well as anti-virus software to deal with those like the mullahs and al-qaeda.
I believe the mighty God sent Muhammad with a message that became a book, and that book needs to be revised and updated to today's edition. Abdol Karim Souroush said it best when he said we don't use the same science textbooks of 2000 years ago yet Islam is still the same as back then.
Also, back then, unlike today where turning 18 is when somebody becomes a man or a woman in todays' societies, men and women were defined by puberty. Thus, if a boy turned 14 and had gone through puberty, he was no longer a child. If a girl turned 8 or 9 or 14 and had just gone through puberty, she was no longer a child. They were considered as adults, and thus they didn't see themselves as having sex with a child but with an adult. Puberty was the determining factor in this back then, not age.
I say that God is not black and white to see the culture and customs of one time and place as equating to those of another time and place, such that he explains in a manner of that time and place and expects men to change and adopt what he has taught them as they change their culture and customs as well. And so I expect a God to have a different view of an American pilot who is ordered to drop a bomb that ends up having collateral damage of 100 innocent civilians, from somebody like Timothy McVeigh who goes out to blow up a building where there are hundreds of innocent civilians.
I believe that God expects people to be more flexible and less absolute than what either those who are religious, or anti-religion, have shown to be. Otherwise we become stuck in a mentality that shuts off the possibility of growth and openness to new people and ideas.
I agree 100% on this. In fact I think the difference will be even bigger, since if it is changed and modernized enough, Islam will be a religion that says that it is only one path of many ways, and that you can even create your own path if you're in harmony with your soul. I believe there's a phrase in the Quran or in some other Muslim text that says something akin to how Islam should adapt. I honestly don't think that Muhammad or any of the other prophets back then ever would've thought that their followers would end up just wanting to copycat their era and culture. Another big problem is that Islam has become politicized and this dragged the religion back even more, because modernity was seen as westernization and Muslim cultures simply looked backwards too much rather than looking and moving forward.
Another point I want to make is that we don't know how much of the Quran is actually what Muhammad said, and how much was added and edited by his followers later on. Plus all the other sayings and books that are followed to the word that are outside of Quran could've been edited even more according to what the followers who held certain cultural beliefs thought. Just like I don't see the Bible or Torah as being the same exact as when they were first written, I don't see the Quran as being in that manner either. Plus, the Quran would've been written differently, just like those other two books would've as well, if they were written by a prophet who was born in Thailand or Australia rather than the middle east. A lot of cultural background has its effect in what's said in any religion. This should be examined in revising the Quran and Islam as a whole.
I feel that the main points like on prayer and fasting to honor those in worse conditions than us are the base around which a new modernized Islam needs to be built. But prayer, in my view, should simply be a meditation and personal, not necessarily reciting the same words that others say, and not in a language you don't know. I think it becomes more honest that way, and more attuned to what Islam was created for rather than all the frills and extras that are from that cultural history.
I think this is a debatable issue with some saying she was 9 and others saying she was in her early or mid teens. However, I think it's beside the point because back in those days a man or woman was determined by whether or not they were able to reproduce, and thus a child who had gone through puberty was considered an adult back then while today our standards are based on the age of 18 or 21 sometimes.
I don't think you can prove a religion or spiritual belief or disprove it either. It requires faith.
No, I think you're being just as black and white as hizbollahis in your anti-Islam bias as they are in their in their views of Islam. To a certain extent, I think you're reacting against them for forcing their views in Iran. But at the same time you're being just as simple and inflexible as them. I don't want to cut your head off.
I didn't know it was a known fact, because from what I've heard and read, it seems to be a point of controversy where some say it was 9, and others say it was in her teens. Regardless, adulthood was determined by puberty and the ability to give birth back then.
Well, in the minds of hizbollahis of Iran, there is no doubt that Poop was fairly and freely elected and that most people in Iran support the IRI and Poop.
Today, if somebody slept with a 9-year old it would be, and should be, considered as rape no matter what.
Back then, when a child physically became an adult, they were considered as an adult and thus were supposed to marry. With boys it was more difficult because they had to make a business and have enough income to support a wife before getting married. But women were give by their families to the best man available once they had physically become women and were able to conceive children.
This is not true. Muhammad had 11 wives throughout his life, and many of these were for political alliance reasons. This is again linked to the culture of the time, when even in the Persian Empire polygamy occurred. Plus he had these wives before the revelation that's revealed in the Quran that says there should be a limit of 4 wives.
In today's day and age, this should be 1 wife, obviously, and Islam needs to change to this standard. It reminds me of reading about how Muhammad was first told by God that his followers need to pray 50 times a day, and when he said that this isn't possible, God changed this to 5 times a day. Perhaps nowadays, once a day is enough, such that a person wishes health and success for his friends and family.
This reminds me of LA satellite TV which is absolutely unpopular and ridiculed, especially in Iran including by those against the IRI. Those in Iran who hold LA satellite TV views on Islam are a smaller minority than even hizbollahis in Iran, probably on par in terms of their numbers with the mko.
Unfortunately, Iranian society has these extremes just like American society has Glenn Beck who thinks Obama is a vampire and Michael Moore who thinks the stock market should be closed. However, fortunately in the US there's democracy while in Iran or those extremes are the ones in power.
I have to agree with Think Pad on this. Would you consider Mein Kampf as a source to understand Jews? Would you consider Poop's speeches as a source to understand the middle east? What about Fox News, is that the best source to understand President Obama? Of course not, and thus the source does matter. A site that's trying to convert Muslims to Christianity isn't the best source on Islam or its background.
(1) This is a cultural issue, since in Saudi Arabia they still do it. The Koran can be changed and cutting heads, or even executing people, isn't necessary in this day and age.
(2) Ardesheer, could you show these verses please?
(3) Muhammad had no sigheh since this is something the Shia later added to Islam. However I've understood that there were 11 wives and yet it was before the revelation limiting Muslims to 4 wives.
(4) Indeed, in the future 1000 years from now, they make look at porn and such of now the same way we look at men sleeping with a child who had gone through puberty 1000 years ago. And just like we judge the people of the past and say that it was sick, those 1000 years from now may judge us as being disgusting.
(5) Nobody prays to the messengers but they do pray to God. Even Muhammad made a point of how he didn't want his image to be worshiped. However, I personally see this not in the extreme literal sense that we can't draw a picture of Muhammad or have a film that depicts him, but that people shouldn't focus on the messenger so much as the message. Nonetheless, the fact that he said this itself garners immense respect for him.