Carlos Queiroz the mastermind Chess player

#41
The record is fine. It's the outlook that shows somewhat uninspiring limits. Not CQ's fault, but the national team manager (regardless of who it is) does have a part in it.

Purely result-oriented expectations:

The limit has always been the group-stage of the world cup and it remains so for the foreseeable future. Anything less has always been considered a failure, and anything more has always been considered almost non-achievable. Getting out of this stigma is becoming an ever lasting dilemma. CQ has made little to no difference with regards to that dilemma.

It would be one thing if he loudly stated the INPUT and PROCESS stages for an OUTPUT higher than the World-Cup group stage. Instead, what he has gradually managed to dictate is a consistent "Be happy with what you got" message. Not necessarily an evil doing, but not all that inspiring either.

Iran is not showing signs of getting out of its 50 year stigma. Not at the domestic or national level. It's become a never-ending cycle.

CQ's overly cautious tactics are a continuation of Branko's, albeit more trustworthy. Iran enjoyed decent defensive tactics and consistency before CQ as well. It's leaping to the next phase that has been the virtue. Let's not forget that.

Expectations with regards to playing style:

- Iran is playing with no more fluidity or flair than it was in 1996.
- Iran is playing much more organized than it was in 1996, but not much more organized than it was in 2006.
- I don't have stats, but Iran does not look to be averaging better possession than early 2000s.
- I don't have stats, but Iran doesn't look to be averaging a better passing-ratio than early 2000s.
- Iran is conceding less goals than pre-CQ era.
- Iran is scoring much less than pre-CQ era.
- Iran shows little to no signs of improvement in offensive chemistry in the 5 years CQ has been in charge. Build-ups are still mostly disastrous. Every game is the story of small periods of decent gameplay followed by the much dreaded longer periods of chaotic football. The only saving grace is a well organized defensive tactic that has somewhat eclipsed the lack of chemistry in possession.
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Maybe CQ is good for Iran but as a coach he was a disaster in Madrid ... I always believed he would not succeed in Iran ( giving the fact how IFF is running + CQ's madrid experience ) but As i said before for a country like Iran the achievement is to win the Asian cup and going to the knock out stage in WC, if not then again what's the difference between CQ and others ? unless we only care about winning and defending and being organized instead of being triumphed ...
 

Babr

Football Legend
Nov 24, 2002
27,304
1,192
#42
The record is fine. It's the outlook that shows somewhat uninspiring limits. Not CQ's fault, but the national team manager (regardless of who it is) does have a part in it.

Purely result-oriented expectations:

The limit has always been the group-stage of the world cup and it remains so for the foreseeable future. Anything less has always been considered a failure, and anything more has always been considered almost non-achievable. Getting out of this stigma is becoming an ever lasting dilemma. CQ has made little to no difference with regards to that dilemma.

It would be one thing if he loudly stated the INPUT and PROCESS stages for an OUTPUT higher than the World-Cup group stage. Instead, what he has gradually managed to dictate is a consistent "Be happy with what you got" message. Not necessarily an evil doing, but not all that inspiring either.

Iran is not showing signs of getting out of its 50 year stigma. Not at the domestic or national level. It's become a never-ending cycle.

CQ's overly cautious tactics are a continuation of Branko's, albeit more trustworthy. Iran enjoyed decent defensive tactics and consistency before CQ as well. It's leaping to the next phase that has been the virtue. Let's not forget that.

Expectations with regards to playing style:

- Iran is playing with no more fluidity or flair than it was in 1996.
- Iran is playing much more organized than it was in 1996, but not much more organized than it was in 2006.
- I don't have stats, but Iran does not look to be averaging better possession than early 2000s.
- I don't have stats, but Iran doesn't look to be averaging a better passing-ratio than early 2000s.
- Iran is conceding less goals than pre-CQ era.
- Iran is scoring much less than pre-CQ era.
- Iran shows little to no signs of improvement in offensive chemistry in the 5 years CQ has been in charge. Build-ups are still mostly disastrous. Every game is the story of small periods of decent gameplay followed by the much dreaded longer periods of chaotic football. The only saving grace is a well organized defensive tactic that has somewhat eclipsed the lack of chemistry in possession.
I don't think is fair argument to compare team by team, would CQ play same style if he had like Bagheri, Daei, Azizi, Kia,Karimi in his team? Probably not.
Could any other domestic manager qualify our 2014 team to WC? Hell no..
So as i said before coaches go with what they have in their hands. Even though our today's squad is much much better than 2010 to 2014 team but we still don't have any player in top 4 European League. CQ doesn't have luxury of Japan and at some extend Korea and as smart coach you need to adjust yourself with what you have. Yes we improved in some positions and our game transition is quite faster than 2-3 years a go, but when 32 years old Shojaei is still our main play maker, that say a lot about lack of resource in one the key positions in football.
The other day i was reading a comment from a Korean fan in other forum who was claiming our team sucks as we don't have as many as players in Europe, guess what: They have 6 players in Top 4 League plus one in Trabzonspor in Turkey!!!
I wasn't the big fan of CQ system 3-4 years a go, but have to admit he got the job done, in a result oriented football world he got what IFF asked him to do. Yes we lost to Iraq in P.K playing with 10 men for over 90 minutes but his team didn't lose to any Asian Team(in 90 minutes) since the lost to Uzbek in 2013, that is something like 3 years.

People who claims he didn't achieve anything as coach, i don't know what is their expectation, are we Japan or Korea? Is not like we are a regular participant in WC. Korea didn't miss a single WC since 86 and Japan since 1998. How about us? Not a single two consecutive one yet!

So if you expect a second round qualification(as some like Mayeli and few of his bashers claims), you should be in right place to talk about that, bezar ini ke zaidim ro avval bozorgh konim bad.

And please don't bring up Iranian coach vs CQ or even Brank' argument up
Our history in WCQ with Iranian coach was quite disaster(other than Mohajerani)

1990: Early exist in first round of qualification with Monajati(First time ever)
1994: Parvin disaster
1998: Mayeli disaster
2010: Daei, Ghotbi
and 3 of our 4 qualification came with Non-Iranian coach...

I guess people needs to realize playing defensive is now part of many coaches strategy, in past weaker teams used to do that vs bigger ones, but when you see a team like Portugal wins Euro with this strategy, is hard to question this system.
I mean a typical bezan-ziresh is ugly but honestly, i didn't see that from TM in last 2-3 years, we actually have a plan on counter-attack and that is why the main criteria for his midfielders and forwards has been speed. Again we lack a speedy play maker but our wingers and forwards are pretty fast and as i said TM transition improved a lot, still not the ideal but much better than before.
 

Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
27,100
264
#43
While I agree with you about many things you said, I also disagree with some of the things:

Not CQ's fault, but the national team manager (regardless of who it is) does have a part in it.
You're saying not his fault but let's put the blame on him anyways.

Purely result-oriented expectations:

The limit has always been the group-stage of the world cup and it remains so for the foreseeable future. Anything less has always been considered a failure, and anything more has always been considered almost non-achievable. Getting out of this stigma is becoming an ever lasting dilemma. CQ has made little to no difference with regards to that dilemma.

It would be one thing if he loudly stated the INPUT and PROCESS stages for an OUTPUT higher than the World-Cup group stage. Instead, what he has gradually managed to dictate is a consistent "Be happy with what you got" message. Not necessarily an evil doing, but not all that inspiring either.

Iran is not showing signs of getting out of its 50 year stigma. Not at the domestic or national level. It's become a never-ending cycle.

CQ's overly cautious tactics are a continuation of Branko's, albeit more trustworthy. Iran enjoyed decent defensive tactics and consistency before CQ as well. It's leaping to the next phase that has been the virtue. Let's not forget that.
Completely agree! Although I would argue our defence is much more solid now than during the time of Branko's defensive style! but I don't think the reason is any of the mentioned coaches. We just have arguably Iran's best defender in history (Hosseini) in TM now instead of that soorakh, Rahman Rezaei! Even Pouraliganji and Montazeri make less individual mistakes (if any) than any of our previous defenders, including Golmohammadi!

Expectations with regards to playing style:

- Iran is playing with no more fluidity or flair than it was in 1996.
- Iran is playing much more organized than it was in 1996, but not much more organized than it was in 2006.
- I don't have stats, but Iran does not look to be averaging better possession than early 2000s.
- I don't have stats, but Iran doesn't look to be averaging a better passing-ratio than early 2000s.
- Iran is conceding less goals than pre-CQ era.
- Iran is scoring much less than pre-CQ era.
Agree

- Iran shows little to no signs of improvement in offensive chemistry in the 5 years CQ has been in charge. Build-ups are still mostly disastrous. Every game is the story of small periods of decent gameplay followed by the much dreaded longer periods of chaotic football. The only saving grace is a well organized defensive tactic that has somewhat eclipsed the lack of chemistry in possession.
I don't think CQ (even though a good coach), is such a fantastic genius a lot of people want to believe. But to be fair, into this equation, you should also add the kind of preparatory friendlies we've gotten to play between 96 and now. That has not been changed either! This is not our fault as it's difficult when other national teams don't want to have friendlies with us. That is something that all coaches have been struggling with. Some things that have recently been changed during CQ era though, is that the players are now somewhat in better shape and have better stamina compared to before (not everyone but many of them)! For the first time they are using GPS to measure how much they run and all the side issues with jerseys, transportation means and charter flight seem to have been fixed! For the first time the clubs let their players go earlier for TM camps too! These are the recent luxuries none of the previous coaches enjoyed. So let's wait and see what CQ can do now with these opportunities. With Taj and Saket, he seems to be less frustrated with IFF too so there is no more excuse (other than better friendlies)!
 
Nov 29, 2002
7,295
416
#45
I know portuguese people hate CQ too (at least all the ones I know). So yeah, he has been poor for Madrid and Portugal.

But at the same time, he's got something - because he did shape the twilight of Ferguson's career and he made them play disciplined football during that period. And lets not forget certain players that he was more intimately involved with...

So he's not a top level coach like Guardiola or Pocchetino, but he is for the "Islamic Republic of" Iran (as KP would say, roohesh shad) the best we can get and he's doing a damn fine job considering the tidal wave of bullshit he has to deal with.
 

Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
27,100
264
#48
He made bad mistakes from time to time. Forgotten the cause of 2 crucial losses for us? 1 penalty handed to Ireland and a very bad mistake causing Mexico's second goal! I'm not even gonna mention his behavior on the field and the Baddavi incident.

At his best, he was an awesome defender but he was not consistent! Hosseini on the other hand is probably the most consistent defender we've had! Other than 1 time, I have hardly seen any mistakes from him, let alone bad ones. He's the king of the defense! He owns it! (I'm knocking on the wood not to jinx him now)! :)
 

OSTAD POOYA

National Team Player
Jan 26, 2004
4,494
247
#49
He made bad mistakes from time to time. Forgotten the cause of 2 crucial losses for us? 1 penalty handed to Ireland and a very bad mistake causing Mexico's second goal! I'm not even gonna mention his behavior on the field and the Baddavi incident.

At his best, he was an awesome defender but he was not consistent! Hosseini on the other hand is probably the most consistent defender we've had! Other than 1 time, I have hardly seen any mistakes from him, let alone bad ones. He's the king of the defense! He owns it! (I'm knocking on the wood not to jinx him now)! :)

I wanted to reply to some other posts from prior but this sure does hit home. I do remember his horrible penalty too to Ireland which literally cost a place in the WC along side the 2 misses by Karimi. His slapping of Badavis face was another low for the Iranian team. I would like to ask some of the old timers to comment on our old defenders such as (Eskandarian, Nazarian, Adbollahi) and indicate how they compare to the defenders now. Hosseini is effective because he has been very consistent and dependent. I love the guy too. He is the heart of our defense and I hope to see him for some more years leading the defensive line. Lets not forget his great goal yesterday too which showed how well the set piece was practiced.
 
Nov 29, 2002
7,295
416
#50
Hosseini is amazing and the foundation of TM.

But we can't deny Rezaei who, yes made a couple of mistakes , but also got his italian side promoted and was the best player in the season when they finished Mid-Table. I mean it seems like it didn't happen now thinking about it, but we had an iranian defender in Serie A playing consistently well for seven seasons in italy. They ended up calling him the secretary for defence

So although Hosseini is better than Rezaei was, Rahman still remains the most successful ASIAN defender in europe.
 

OSTAD POOYA

National Team Player
Jan 26, 2004
4,494
247
#51
The record is fine. It's the outlook that shows somewhat uninspiring limits. Not CQ's fault, but the national team manager (regardless of who it is) does have a part in it.

Purely result-oriented expectations:

The limit has always been the group-stage of the world cup and it remains so for the foreseeable future. Anything less has always been considered a failure, and anything more has always been considered almost non-achievable. Getting out of this stigma is becoming an ever lasting dilemma. CQ has made little to no difference with regards to that dilemma.

It would be one thing if he loudly stated the INPUT and PROCESS stages for an OUTPUT higher than the World-Cup group stage. Instead, what he has gradually managed to dictate is a consistent "Be happy with what you got" message. Not necessarily an evil doing, but not all that inspiring either.

Iran is not showing signs of getting out of its 50 year stigma. Not at the domestic or national level. It's become a never-ending cycle.

CQ's overly cautious tactics are a continuation of Branko's, albeit more trustworthy. Iran enjoyed decent defensive tactics and consistency before CQ as well. It's leaping to the next phase that has been the virtue. Let's not forget that.

Expectations with regards to playing style:

- Iran is playing with no more fluidity or flair than it was in 1996.
- Iran is playing much more organized than it was in 1996, but not much more organized than it was in 2006.
- I don't have stats, but Iran does not look to be averaging better possession than early 2000s.
- I don't have stats, but Iran doesn't look to be averaging a better passing-ratio than early 2000s.
- Iran is conceding less goals than pre-CQ era.
- Iran is scoring much less than pre-CQ era.
- Iran shows little to no signs of improvement in offensive chemistry in the 5 years CQ has been in charge. Build-ups are still mostly disastrous. Every game is the story of small periods of decent gameplay followed by the much dreaded longer periods of chaotic football. The only saving grace is a well organized defensive tactic that has somewhat eclipsed the lack of chemistry in possession.
Bache Tehroon jaan I do agree with many of your points but not entirely as I view the progress of Iran in a different way. Iran for as long as we remember has been inconsistent and dropping games left and right where they were not supposed to. I don’t have time right now to pull it up but by memory going back to 94 qualifiers, 98, 2002, and 2010 we have dropped many games which should have not been dropped. This matter of consistency of not dropping games easily is the number 1 factor to get us to the next level. The whole foundation of the team is built on not losing and then being able to move forward to get results. Looking at war, looking at building a business, looking at it in a number of different ways it’s the foundation and the buildup and to be able to resist and fight back is what will stand the test of time.

When looking at Korea as mentioned that has made it every world cup since 86 including playoffs and even at one instance 4th place in the world, or Japan consistently from 98 we need to remind ourselves that it’s the consistency that is needed to get us to the next level. Japan has also gone to the playoffs in the WC. I will not even get to the Olympic qualifications and youth teams as it’s a whole big subject in itself but the point is that they have made it to 8 and 5 world cups in a row respectively.

Now Iran has not even achieved 2 world cups in a row. So if we do manage to break that trend and actually go to two world cups in a row that limited barrier or range that you are referring to will be considered broken. It may be considered a small step but for Iran it’s not. We did not win the Asian cup but as people know in order to win a tournament it’s not only being good. You need luck too and even though this is not an excuse Iran played down for like 80 minutes or so against Iraq and came from twice in OT and lost in PK’s. So overall they did perform pretty well. I believe that if this team is able to go to the WC they can be a force and actually try to go to the next round. This may sound farfetched but in reality it is a possibility. Even during the last WC if a few things had gone differently we did have a chance to go to the next round.

So overall I believe if we are to stay consistent and do make it to 2 world cups in a row that would be a good accomplishment and a great stepping stone for the next level of victory. Before accomplishing this feat anything happening may just be a fluke!
 

Sly

Football Legend
Oct 18, 2002
27,100
264
#52
Hosseini is amazing and the foundation of TM.

But we can't deny Rezaei who, yes made a couple of mistakes , but also got his italian side promoted and was the best player in the season when they finished Mid-Table. I mean it seems like it didn't happen now thinking about it, but we had an iranian defender in Serie A playing consistently well for seven seasons in italy. They ended up calling him the secretary for defence

So although Hosseini is better than Rezaei was, Rahman still remains the most successful ASIAN defender in europe.
He was indeed great in Italy and very good at club level but in TM he was not consistent. The 2 mentioned bad mistakes were only his most infamous ones. He did make mistakes here and there, from time to time which were not directly fatal but still noticeable.

Why Hosseini never got to Europe is however beyond me! I'm sure he would have been great there too!
 

Babr

Football Legend
Nov 24, 2002
27,304
1,192
#53
Both Hosseini and Montazeri are best defenders Iran had since Panjali. Yahya was ok though but had his up and down.Hosseni had an offer from Germany when he was in mid 20s, unfortunately it was never finalized.
Rahman was indeed sorakh in TM level. The guy positioning was terrible as defender. He was strong on air and in one and one situation with forwards but overall wasn't a smart defender. How he played in Italy, i seriously don't know.
 

Bache Tehroon

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 16, 2002
38,040
558
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#54
How he played in Italy, i seriously don't know.
Football has lacked good defenders for years now. Look at the ones employed at the highest level by the richest clubs (Pique, David Luiz, Sergio Ramos, Mascherano, Jeremy Mathiu, Otamendi...) All are pretty average compared to the generation before them. They can no longer make up for their lack of speed and intelligence by committing fouls.

A player like Rahman Rezaei or Jalal Hosseini is not much worse than the best defenders in the world. Defenders basically don't have what it takes to face top forwards. That's why parking the bus has become such a popular tactic. It's the only way to face the crazy-fast and very smart forwards of today.
 

Babr

Football Legend
Nov 24, 2002
27,304
1,192
#55
Football has lacked good defenders for years now. Look at the ones employed at the highest level by the richest clubs (Pique, David Luiz, Sergio Ramos, Mascherano, Jeremy Mathiu, Otamendi...) All are pretty average compared to the generation before them. They can no longer make up for their lack of speed and intelligence by committing fouls.

A player like Rahman Rezaei or Jalal Hosseini is not much worse than the best defenders in the world. Defenders basically don't have what it takes to face top forwards. That's why parking the bus has become such a popular tactic. It's the only way to face the crazy-fast and very smart forwards of today.
I agree defense is probably less improved position in last 20 years compare to forward and keepers specially.

Anyway it is pretty special for TM to have both Hosseini and Montazeri at the same time. The day both retire, we will feel their absence, Pouraliganji is not a bad defender either. Hosseini is very smart on air, set pieces and has excellent positioning while Montazeri has better speed and first past.
They complete each others well. IMO they had what it takes to play in Europe. Hope Pouraliganji makes a move to Europe if the occasion present , he is only 24!
 

Mahdi

News Team, ISP Managers Team
Jan 1, 1970
6,936
401
Mjunik
#56
Defenders are required to do different things in 2016 than in 2000 because football has evolved.

Put Cannavaro in a team from 2016 playing a high defensive line and he is Soorakh. Baresi and Maldini would be a different case though.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,265
26
Las Vegas, NV
#57
Well said Ostad Jan, old friend. There have been plenty of coaches who have come to Iran and they were good from an x's and o's standpoint. What separates an average football manager from a good one is the good football manager can relate to his players and get the best out of them. The good manager knows his players strengths and weaknesses, then devises a game plan. Minimize the weaknesses and highlight your strengths. I would say under CQ, where we improved the most is our overall team defense. We know play like defense like a professoional European club and even the Chinese manager pointed that out. We were always good in attack/hamleh but our weakness was always the D/GK position. We do not have those problems anymore but it goes back to that psychological aspect you were talking about. There is an old American coach speak saying, "It is not about the x's and o's it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's." Yes you need to be a good strategist but each player has a different personality. It is up to the coach to know each player and find a way to bring them together, as a team. CQ did a wonderful job of that.
 

Bache Tehroon

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 16, 2002
38,040
558
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#58
Defenders are required to do different things in 2016 than in 2000 because football has evolved.

Put Cannavaro in a team from 2016 playing a high defensive line and he is Soorakh. Baresi and Maldini would be a different case though.
Yeah they participate more in the build-ups and possession. Still when it comes to defending, teams basically gave up on trying to beat forwards in 1x1 battles. You rarely see a defender going for the player in possession anymore. The odds of winning that battle have decreased drastically compared to 20-30 years ago. The risk of getting a yellow or red-card are high and most of the time the forward is much faster than the sluggish defender.

These days, a fast player with the brain to do things usually doesn't end up becoming a defender. That will probably slowly change in the years to come.
 

kasra1930

National Team Player
Dec 30, 2011
5,402
390
#59
I wanted to reply to some other posts from prior but this sure does hit home. I do remember his horrible penalty too to Ireland which literally cost a place in the WC along side the 2 misses by Karimi. His slapping of Badavis face was another low for the Iranian team. I would like to ask some of the old timers to comment on our old defenders such as (Eskandarian, Nazarian, Adbollahi) and indicate how they compare to the defenders now. Hosseini is effective because he has been very consistent and dependent. I love the guy too. He is the heart of our defense and I hope to see him for some more years leading the defensive line. Lets not forget his great goal yesterday too which showed how well the set piece was practiced.
دوست عزیز ،تنها کسی*** که در اون زمان با حسینی برابری میکرد نصرلا عبداللهی بود،عبداللهی نه تنها یک دفاع مقتدر بود بلکه یک لیبرو هم بود،و بازیاش عین همین شتلیکه مربی*** فعلی کره بود،اما به نظر من حسینی از عبداللهی هم بهتر عمل می***کند،به نظر من بهترین مدافع وسط تاریخ فوتبال ما همین جلال حسینی*** می***باشد.و بعد عبداللهی.

اما بهترین مدافع سمت راست ما را باید بین حسن آنعزری و مهدوی کیا جست،و واقعا بین این دو را انتخاب کردن بسیار مشکل است.

اما بدون شک بهترین مدافع چپ ایران بی*** تردید اسکندریان است که در تیم*** متخب جهان هم بازی کرد.



اما بهترین بازیکن تاریخ ایران پرویز قلیچ خانی است که روی دستش بازیکن نیامده است،همین علی*** پروین ۲ روز پیش در مصاحبهٔ خودش گفت قلیچ خانی از من هم بهتر بود و او بهترین بازیکن تاریخ فوتبال ایران است.
 
Oct 18, 2002
16,058
106
#60
Carlos Q compared to Ghalenoiee, Parvin, Hejazi, Daiee, Ghotbi is a mastermind.

but really let's stop giving him so much credit until he takes Iran once to round of 16.

the goal should longer be getting to worlcup. it should be getting to world cup and having a better showing that last few times that Iran went there.

There is nothing wrong with solid defending. but sometimes you have to score in a game. you don't have ten games to just be patient and sit back.

the Bosnia game showed us that.