Charts that summarize what's wrong with America

IPride · Dec 9, 2012

ME said:

I definitely agree with you - even today's America provides opportunities for people to go from rags to riches. Yes, there are miners, mechanics, carpenters, etc that make six figure salaries. But, all I'm saying is that 1) it's getting harder and harder for many people to realize their dreams 2) in many instances, there are hurdles that keep you back even if you want to get ahead.

The reason why I brought up the NYC example was because I was indirectly pointing to the condition of many African American and Hispanic communities in the US. As Mahdi said, it's extremely segregated and it's extremely difficult in many places to break out if you wanted to. Saying, and many do, that these African american kids who are born to crack addict or piss poor parents aren't advancing because they're lazy or because they don't have the values is extremely unfair.

Flint · Dec 9, 2012

IPride said:

So what? There are hurdles the moment step out of your house. You overcome them. Do you know how many hurdles you overcame to get from Tehran to Toronto and be where you are? Why do you think you could do it but nobody else can? Is there anybody more disadvantaged than us when we left home?

Farsi Zaban · Dec 10, 2012

Flint said:

Actually most immigrants who come here seem to be upper class in their own countries and are more than capable of providing for themselves for a quite a while. When I first came here I hung around a lot of new immigrants and I don't remember a single person whose family was dirt poor. A few of them were actually particularly rich. Maybe you came here with nothing but I don't know of single Iranian who had absolutely no money when he got here. I know of a Chinese family that could be classified as somewhat poor but even they had resources available to them in the form of middle class relatives that they could use.

With regards to poverty in the US, I think the poor in the rural areas and small towns are actually worse off than the inner city folks. In the inner cities especially in the larger metro areas there are services and resources available to people that the poor in small towns simply don't have.

Zob Ahan · Dec 10, 2012

Farsi Zaban said:

Now you know one:smile:.
That is mostly the case with more recent Iranian immigrants who sell their properties in Iran and because of the high values come here with some money. Also the immigrants that came here in 1979 and early 80s also were mostly wealthy. Both of these two categories tend to be families. However in the mid and late 80s most immigrants were single and brought no money whatsoever. I belong to that last group and I got here with $500 in my pocket. I was working 2 weeks after arrival.

Farsi Zaban · Dec 10, 2012

Zob Ahan said:

It's admirable that you were able to do that but I am more than certain that you are the exception and not the rule. Most immigrants who have come here, say during and after 1900s came with a quite a bit of pocket change. I want to take back part of what I said because now that I think about it, I do know of two Iranians (both single Iranian men) who came here relatively young and with nothing, and after a while failed miserably and went back to Iran. They both tried various business(incidentally, their last ventures for both were chelo kababi) and left this country with a great deal of debt. I also know a few Iranians who say they succeeded here on their own but neglect to mention that their families sent them hundreds of thousands of dollars before they experienced success. I know they are lying because they are family members

.

Mahdi · Dec 10, 2012

Zob Ahan said:

Now you know one:smile:.
That is mostly the case with more recent Iranian immigrants who sell their properties in Iran and because of the high values come here with some money. Also the immigrants that came here in 1979 and early 80s also were mostly wealthy. Both of these two categories tend to be families. However in the mid and late 80s most immigrants were single and brought no money whatsoever. I belong to that last group and I got here with $500 in my pocket. I was working 2 weeks after arrival.

Did you study in Iran or did you study in the US? The 500$ thing is almost only possible in the US.

R.BAGGIO · Dec 10, 2012

I don't think this topic is about poor African Americans or hispanic people versus everybody else. It's a bigger issue than that. Everybody is getting shafted because of what can only be described as injustice. The division of wealth right now is simply unjust and the bigger problem is that the governments and banks/corporations have become one fucking entity and this is simply unjust and illegal.

As far as everything else goes. I don't think you can have an excuse for selling drugs and being a criminal no matter where you are born and you don't have an excuse for not being able to feed yourself in North America either. Mexican illegals get paid $10 a day working on a farm and they are able to feed their families. I don't fucking care if you were born in Watts or Harlem (which by the way is pretty nice).

Also not all Iranians are rich kids driving beamers six months after they get here. I worked construction with my dad from age 13 to 18 and my mother worked in a fast food place.

I simply don't give a fuck if you were born here in North America with all the privileges that goes with it and you are a fucking scumbag drugdealer criminal. what a fucking tough life, poor you, go get a fucking job.

Mahdi · Dec 10, 2012

R.BAGGIO said:

I really don't think that you can simplify it like that. First, the major drug epidemic was in the US in the 80ies. Right now, meeeh. But the 80ies were terrible.

And if drug dealing is the only job opening in your area and everyone around you deals drugs, then you don't really care.

R.BAGGIO · Dec 10, 2012

The problem is it is NOT the only job opening in any area in the United States. It is the best paying job opening requiring no education or skills. If you were talking about Baluchestan then yeah there are no other fucking jobs but trust me here in North America McDonalds is always hiring if you are willing to flip burgers.

Now if you are talking about kids whose parents are drug addicts or they are abused physically/emotionally then that is a legitimate case but as far as "there are no other jobs" I call bullshit on that big time.

Mahdi · Dec 10, 2012

R.BAGGIO said:

That is not really true. There's academic evidence and such that drug dealing is actually one of the worst paid employments if you're at the bottom of the pyramid.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittVenkateshAnEconomicAnalysis2000.pdf

Venkatesh has even more research on that....

It's not about jobs being around or not, though I disagree with that part too. I don't know about the number of fast food restaurant chains in certain parts of the US. At least, during my one trip to the Watts Towers in 2008, I didn't see any McDonald's around. Also, there's the social stigma that comes with it(see Wackarnold Dave Chappelle spot).

but the most important aspect is the following....if you are around people who are pushing drugs, if the richest guy in your neighborhood is a drug dealer, if people who don't deal drugs earn less, then just like everyone else who aspires to become an actor, athlete or doctor, kids aspire to be drug dealers. it's about not having the right role models in your area. However, while the top of the pyramid pays well, the bottom earns shit. Hourly wages for drug dealing are much less than McDonald's, just that you get to hang out with your friends.

Also, keep in mind that even if you have one good kid who doesn't want to get involved, that kid will have one cousin, friend, whatever who will and he will get involved one way or other. Plus, drug dealing is a choice for everyone smart enough to be an academic or entrepreneur, but for whatever reason not making it academically.

Well, but this is the reality. It has actually been more or less proven academically. It's not hearsay. Not to say that it's great or what not, but it is what it is.

R.BAGGIO · Dec 10, 2012

Mahdi said:

That is not really true. There's academic evidence and such that drug dealing is actually one of the worst paid employments if you're at the bottom of the pyramid.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittVenkateshAnEconomicAnalysis2000.pdf

Venkatesh has even more research on that....

It's not about jobs being around or not, though I disagree with that part too. I don't know about the number of fast food restaurant chains in certain parts of the US. At least, during my one trip to the Watts Towers in 2008, I didn't see any McDonald's around. Also, there's the social stigma that comes with it(see Wackarnold Dave Chappelle spot).

but the most important aspect is the following....if you are around people who are pushing drugs, if the richest guy in your neighborhood is a drug dealer, if people who don't deal drugs earn less, then just like everyone else who aspires to become an actor, athlete or doctor, kids aspire to be drug dealers. it's about not having the right role models in your area. However, while the top of the pyramid pays well, the bottom earns shit. Hourly wages for drug dealing are much less than McDonald's, just that you get to hang out with your friends.

Also, keep in mind that even if you have one good kid who doesn't want to get involved, that kid will have one cousin, friend, whatever who will and he will get involved one way or other. Plus, drug dealing is a choice for everyone smart enough to be an academic or entrepreneur, but for whatever reason not making it academically.

Well, but this is the reality. It has actually been more or less proven academically. It's not hearsay.

The bold part I agree with. It is more of a problem of values than economics.

LOL @ the pay part, that is quite interesting. That's probably because there are too many dealers in those areas.

Ok, lets say there are no other jobs in the area (NONE), then common sense tells me people would move out of that area rather than become a criminal if they have any basic feel for right and wrong / values. The problem is that they do not.

Farsi Zaban · Dec 10, 2012

R.BAGGIO said:

Yeah, but were you guys sleeping in a homeless shelter the first couple of years and did your parents send you to a crappy inner city school? Cuz my family couldn't afford a beamer either but they had enough money brought over to rent an apartment in a relatively wealthy burb and send me a to a good public school. In the meantime, my mom worked three minimum wage part-time jobs simultaneously and I worked at a fast food place. The point is we certainly wouldn't have been able to start at that place without what my parents had saved up in Iran. We spent our money wisely, but we always had a little bit of money to fall back on in case we weren't able to find work. I am willing to bet your situation was more or less the same. That's a luxury that you cannot assume poor people always have. Most of the time, they are starting at zero whereas I started at a very good public school and a safe neighborhood and a stable family situation.

And that fast job I had? All I had to do was walk for five minutes to get to it. 90% of my coworkers on the other hand were African Americans who came from the west side of the city. They either rode the bus or carpooled together in their broken down cars. The ones who rode the bus, it literally took them an hour and a half each day to come to work after all the stops. And they thought they were lucky cuz they didn't have to change buses. A lot of them worked at a different fast food place in the mornings. And guess what? They were still poor as fuck. They couldn't afford insurance, they couldn't afford to go to college, or a car with AC. Compared to them, I had it pretty easy. Compared to other kids at my school, definitely not.

R.BAGGIO · Dec 10, 2012

Farsi Zaban said:

Yeah, but were you guys sleeping in a homeless shelter the first couple of years and did your parents send you to a crappy inner city school? Cuz my family couldn't afford a beamer either but they had enough money brought over to rent an apartment in a relatively wealthy burb and send me a to a good public school. In the meantime, my mom worked three minimum wage part-time jobs simultaneously and I worked at a fast food place. The point is we certainly wouldn't have been able to start at that place without what my parents had saved up in Iran. We spent our money wisely, but we always had a little bit of money to fall back on in case we weren't able to find work. I am willing to bet your situation was more or less the same. That's a luxury that you cannot assume poor people always have. Most of the time, they are starting at zero whereas I started at a very good public school and a safe neighborhood and a stable family situation.

And that fast job I had? All I had to do was walk for five minutes to get to it. 90% of my coworkers on the other hand were African Americans who came from the west side of the city. They either rode the bus or carpooled together in their broken down cars. The ones who rode the bus, it literally took them an hour and a half each day to come to work after all the stops. And they thought they were lucky cuz they didn't have to change buses. A lot of them worked at a different fast food place in the mornings. And guess what? They were still poor as fuck. They couldn't afford insurance, they couldn't afford to go to college, or a car with AC. Compared to them, I had it pretty easy. Compared to other kids at my school, definitely not.

My point was about poor people becoming criminals not that there are no poor people or nobody had it worse than me. Also about people having enough to eat. I would not be able to go to college if it wasn't for student loans my first year either but you have a point regarding the advantage I had in better schooling.

Zob Ahan · Dec 10, 2012

mahdi said:

usa..

Mahdi · Dec 10, 2012

Zob Ahan said:

not bad..actually impressive...zendeh bad be esfehoon o esfehooni

IranZamin · Dec 11, 2012

How about getting some perspective established here. In most countries in the world including the one we came from, poverty means children working in factories. It means 10-year-old girls selling gum on the streets in the freezing cold. It means fathers selling their kidneys to feed their families. It means surviving most days on one meal. It means a quality of life barely above that of an American homeless person with no form of organized public or private assistance to speak of.

In America, the poor include millions of healthy people who don't worry about a roof over their heads thanks to government housing and don't worry about their next meal thanks to welfare and food stamps, even though many of them have made it to their 20s and 30s barely having worked a day in their lives…but we're supposed to believe they only abandon their children or engage in mindless violence because of poverty.

Never mind that America is probably the only country where you can be poor and still have enough to eat to become morbidly obese; where you can be considered impoverished and still own a decent car...the kind of things that sound like fantasy for the poor in many countries with much lower rates of crime than the US.

If poverty instead of culture was the main reason behind the crime in America, then populations of countries like India or Cambodia shouldn’t even be half of what they are today – they would have just killed each other off a long time ago.

Flint · Dec 11, 2012

What gets me is the 99 weeks of unemployment. Does anybody think if someone can't get a job in 99 weeks he is really looking for work or is even employable? 99 weeks? I personally know two people, Iranians no less, who flatly said they were not going to look for a job until they exhaust their benefits. Their lives had hardly changed.

Kaz · Dec 11, 2012

You may have a concern, but your argument is simplistic and flawed and it is this kind of reasoning which has led America to where it is now. The arguments that come from the right all stem from the systematic abuses that can arise from government. Such graphs can be used for their arguments too. So, really, what is your point? If there is no money to be made in an economy, why do you think the 'rich' should create businesses? To fail and lose money? The problems are just too deep for that kind of thinking.

For me, it's quite evident: when did the biggest movement of poor people in becoming wealthy people occur? It happened in the mid-to-late 19th century. An era of far less government involvement and regulation.

But, assuming you're persuasions are leftist; you're advocating stuff which just perpetuates this problem. The problem is, you/they don't know it, don't get it and keep contributing to it...all while pointing the fingers at the wrong people. I agree with Robbie; the governments and corporations are basically becoming one entity...that is the problem. Giving the rich the power to rule by government; and giving them an opportunity to abuse that power for ill-gotten gains.

Kaz · Dec 11, 2012

Zob Ahan said:

There are a lot of Iranians coming to Australia (particularly Perth) who come with not much at all, and like you start working almost immediately. My family's restaurant has employed quite a few of them. And you know what? These people are the most successful. A couple of them paid their way through uni/tafe and have very good jobs now and are loving life. I feel very proud of them. I remember talking to them when they first came and found it tough, telling them just to work hard because even the average job here pays enough for someone to live a good life. Marry someone else and combine your incomes and you're laughing. After a couple of tough years they've got what they thought they'd get by going to 'kharej', but on the journey to life difficulty and hardships are inevitable.

Mahdi · Dec 11, 2012

IPride said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/o...obber-barons.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

interesting article with regards to that..

Charts that summarize what's wrong with America

National Team Player

Legionnaire

Captain

Elite Member

Captain

Elite Member

National Team Player

Elite Member

National Team Player

Elite Member

National Team Player

Captain

National Team Player

Elite Member

Elite Member

IPL Player

Legionnaire

Coach

Coach

Elite Member