Europe Immigration Problems

tajrish

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
3,037
197
57
San Diego, California
#1
There is no obvious solution for this problem, but it just doesn't look good for the Europeans. I don't know why U.S. is better in assimilating its immigrants, but for whatever reason, Europeans just can't handle this situation, which I believe will end really badly for all parties involved.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/opinion/europe-immigration-debate-koser/?iref=obinsite

Editor's note: Khalid Koser is Deputy Director and Academic Dean at the Geneva Centre for Security Policy.
(CNN) -- Reactions to the drowning of nearly 400 migrants in the seas off Lampedusa and Malta earlier this month demonstrate three important reasons why Europe will not resolve its immigration crisis any time soon.
First, the polarization of public, media, and political reaction has been striking. For some these were humanitarian tragedies, made all the more harrowing by dramatic language about divers 'unpacking a wall of bodies' in a trawler's hull, and the Mediterranean becoming a "watery graveyard." For others in contrast they represent a failure of border security that jeopardizes the integrity of the EU and is a harbinger for mass uncontrolled migration.
INFOGRAPHIC: How illegal immigrants enter the EU
Khalid Koser


The policy responses that flow from these conclusions are equally divided. There is a strong case to strengthen border controls. But an equally convincing argument is that more restrictive policies will only narrow options for desperate people and drive more of them into the arms of migrant smugglers and traffickers.
The former is clearly the predominant view among most policy-makers in Europe. Friday's Summit of the European Council in Brussels, while acknowledging the need to provide more development aid to some of the countries migrants are leaving, has mainly emphasized stepping up surveillance and sea patrols through the EU's Frontex border patrol agency.
But experience around the world demonstrates that border control is not a silver bullet. A portfolio of policies is required to reduce irregular migration, certainly including border control, but combined with addressing the root causes of conflict and poverty, combating smuggling and trafficking, effective migration management and return, and the regulation of labor markets.
MORE: On patrol with Frontex in the 'sea of death'
Second, the capsizing has also exposed deep divides within the European Union. Countries on the front-line -- especially Cyprus, Greece, Italy, Malta, and Spain -- are calling for the rest of Europe to share out the burden of asylum seekers and irregular migrants who arrive there by sea, by relocating some of them at least temporarily.

Cercone: Frontex needs more resources


Lampedusa: Refugees' gateway to Europe


Survivors look back at shipwreck tragedy


African refugees struggle in Germany

But this challenges a fundamental EU law, the Dublin Regulation, which determines that dealing with asylum requests is the responsibility of the first EU state through which asylum seekers pass. And countries like France, Germany, and the UK, point out that they already receive the lion's share of asylum applications in Europe. As a result they have indicated a willingness to support capacity-building in states on the southern periphery, and to provide them limited financial assistance, but not to accept more migrants.
OPINION: Europe's immigration nightmare just beginning
In the absence of a coordinated EU approach, migrants -- and their smugglers -- will continue to target countries like Greece, Italy, and Spain as entry points; they will remain clandestine even if they may have a strong asylum claim; they will continue to work in the informal labor market or turn to crime to survive; and their rights will not be recognized or respected.
Third, the response to Lampedusa in particular could be described as an over-reaction in this sense: At least 1,500 people drowned or went missing while attempting to reach Europe via the Mediterranean in 2011,according to the U.N. The only unusual aspect is that large numbers died in the same incident in Lampedusa, and that they drowned close to European shores.
In other words while a one-off event has attracted attention, the systemic problem has been largely ignored. Now that the funerals have taken place the deaths are fading from view, and the issue has become quickly sidelined.
OPINION: EU must solve crisis to deserve Nobel Prize
Indeed the Brussels Summit has put off policy decisions on immigration to the forthcoming December 2013 and June 2014 Summits. The reasons are clear. Immigration has become a toxic political issue; especially as high levels of unemployment and the economic crisis have fuelled a growing anti-immigration sentiment across Europe. The downside of making policy on immigration in this environment strongly outweighs the upside. There is no political space to promote liberal policies on migration; while politicians at least behind closed doors know that restrictive policies are unlikely to work.
On Friday Italian authorities reported that they have intercepted as many as 800 migrants on three separate boats in the Mediterranean.
OPINION: What's the place of outsiders in Europe?
An acute crisis in Eritrea, from where many of those who drowned earlier this month and have been intercepted since came; combines with chronic instability and poverty in many sub-Saharan African countries, unpredictable transitions in North Africa, and the unfolding Syrian disaster, to translate into growing pressure on Europe's borders.
In the not-too-distant future Afghanistan's transition is likely to push even more people towards Europe.
And in the longer term disparities in development, demography, and democracy, as well as the effects of climate change, will drive still more migrants into Europe.
In the absence of a reasoned debate, a comprehensive policy response, a coordinated EU approach, and the political courage to confront irregular migration, Europe's immigration nightmare has only just begun
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#2
Assimilation was the old America. The new America, thanks to the libs, is you keep doing and living the way you did before you came here. Who would have thought that to drive in LA you could take the driving test in Farsi, and a bunch of other languages, and pass?
 

tajrish

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
3,037
197
57
San Diego, California
#3
why are muslims not as fanatic in the U.S as in Europe? There is got to be an explanation for that. Maybe it has to do with the European welfare system and the way they are taking care of by the Government. They have a lot of free time on their hand to spend in Mosques or amongst other Muslims, who mostly live in ghettos and low-income neighborhoods that feeds radicalism and extremism.
In the U.S., there is no time for that crap. You either work and make money or you would die of hunger and have to sleep in the streets. That might play a factor, but I am really fishing here.
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#4
In the U.S., there is no time for that crap. You either work and make money or you would die of hunger and have to sleep in the streets. That might play a factor, but I am really fishing here.
That may still be true compared to Europe. I am not familiar much with the situation there but I am telling you there are strong movements here to make people as dependent on the government as possible, then get their votes. It is not even a secret anymore. They freely admit to that. Who could have imagined that in America you could find 50 million "hungry" people to give food stamps to? The answer is simple. You lower the threshold. A family of 4 making $50,000 a year is deemed in need of food assistance! At the same time just around the corner McDonald's is selling cheeseburgers for 99 cents.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#5
why are muslims not as fanatic in the U.S as in Europe? There is got to be an explanation for that. Maybe it has to do with the European welfare system and the way they are taking care of by the Government. They have a lot of free time on their hand to spend in Mosques or amongst other Muslims, who mostly live in ghettos and low-income neighborhoods that feeds radicalism and extremism.
In the U.S., there is no time for that crap. You either work and make money or you would die of hunger and have to sleep in the streets. That might play a factor, but I am really fishing here.
It would be good if that was the problem but it's not..lots of immigrants under the current climate are not given 2 shits by most European governments. US does a much better job at that. Here asylum seekers live of 50 Euros a month or something and are treated like animals.

it's (more) difficult to get a job in Europe than in the US, it's also more difficult to get a part of the society as an immigrant than in the US.

Or let's take a small example:

You are a foreigner to the US, have no family there, no nothing...you go to a shop, person at the shop, even if he/she does it superficially, says hi and asks you how you're doing. You feel automatically better.
In Europe though?

No matter how we twist and turn it around, there's probably no better nation in the history of mankind than the US.
 

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#6
What immigration problems...?! Well they (This time it is not the Saudis) are promoting Hussein on the buses in London.....there will soon been dasteh sineh/ghameh zani....may create some traffic problems but in return a lot ash and gheymed will be served.... Maybe soon Bonyad Al Zahra can be the sponsor of me beloved Spurs.......these days we certainly need devine intervention to score!!

husseinbus.jpg
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#7
True. Even poor Blacks and Latinos in the US are still much better culturally assimilated (language aside) than immigrants in Europe.

One reason in my opinion is that the American/Canadian culture is not ethnic-based. European culture is. You can't really be considered French if you can trace your ancestors back to the ancient Franks. But in the US no one cares where your parents came from.

Also, Latinos have a closer culture to Europeans than Muslims/Middle Easterners do.
 

tajrish

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
3,037
197
57
San Diego, California
#8
There could also be another explanation for this. Being American is more of an ideology, you either accept it or you don't, but you are not really subscribing to be an American citizen per se, but more or less an American in way of life. That is not the case in Europe (or anywhere else for that matter).
Regardless, Europe is doomed and I see no way out of it. In 5-10 years, fascism will be ruling most European countries. There will be blood.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#9
True. Even poor Blacks and Latinos in the US are still much better culturally assimilated (language aside) than immigrants in Europe.

One reason in my opinion is that the American/Canadian culture is not ethnic-based. European culture is. You can't really be considered French if you can trace your ancestors back to the ancient Franks. But in the US no one cares where your parents came from.

Also, Latinos have a closer culture to Europeans than Muslims/Middle Easterners do.
There could also be another explanation for this. Being American is more of an ideology, you either accept it or you don't, but you are not really subscribing to be an American citizen per se, but more or less an American in way of life. That is not the case in Europe (or anywhere else for that matter).
Regardless, Europe is doomed and I see no way out of it. In 5-10 years, fascism will be ruling most European countries. There will be blood.
Actually, at least in theory both France and UK have that too, but it's not working. Interestingly enough, the one country in Europe over the past 10 years where immigration and integration has worked best, is in my humble opinion Germany. Whatever you want to say about them, but they took integration very seriously in the 2000s and as we know, whenever they take something seriously, they do it well. There are still major issues in Eastern Germany but overall, I would say their policies have worked best and they are on the right way for a multicultural country.

You could argue also that the US takes mainly educated immigrants while Europe gets a fair share of uneducated ones and in general, if you have a certain level of education, it works better to get integrated in society, but the US has its fair share of uneducated immigrants as well, so it's not true.

But as said, amazingly enough, I would say that Germany over the past 10 years has been a role model for integration and a multiracial/multicultural society. At least, the effort has been there and you can see amazingly huge progress.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#10
One reason in my opinion is that the American/Canadian culture is not ethnic-based. European culture is. You can't really be considered French if you can trace your ancestors back to the ancient Franks. But in the US no one cares where your parents came from.
I think this is the key point. North American culture is immigration based to begin with and has continually adjusted to immigration issues over decades (if not centuries), whereas immigration on such a large scale is a relatively new phenomenon in Europe (post Schengen). I think it will take a couple of more decades for Europe to adjust to rapidly increasing immigrant populations and vice versa.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#11
I think this is the key point. North American culture is immigration based to begin with and has continually adjusted to immigration issues over decades (if not centuries), whereas immigration on such a large scale is a relatively new phenomenon in Europe (post Schengen). I think it will take a couple of more decades for Europe to adjust to rapidly increasing immigrant populations and vice versa.
not 100% true

You had immigration in Europe before or happening at the same time as in the US. You had waves of eastern Europeans settling in Vienna at the turn of the 19th/20th century or in Germany, you had blacks coming to France and also Algerians at the turn of the 19th/20th century, same in the UK. You had Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians moving to Germany and France in the 50ies, Turks and Yugoslavians moving to Germany and Austria in the 60ies etc.

That was even on a higher scale. The problems for each case are also different....both why it worked in some cases, why it finally worked and why it didn't. But immigration is nothing only the US and Canada had.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#12
But as said, amazingly enough, I would say that Germany over the past 10 years has been a role model for integration and a multiracial/multicultural society. At least, the effort has been there and you can see amazingly huge progress.
That's interesting. What policies have they put in place especially with regard to the Turkish immigrants?
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#13
not 100% true

You had immigration in Europe before or happening at the same time as in the US. You had waves of eastern Europeans settling in Vienna at the turn of the 19th/20th century or in Germany, you had blacks coming to France and also Algerians at the turn of the 19th/20th century, same in the UK. You had Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians moving to Germany and France in the 50ies, Turks and Yugoslavians moving to Germany and Austria in the 60ies etc.

That was even on a higher scale. The problems for each case are also different....both why it worked in some cases, why it finally worked and why it didn't. But immigration is nothing only the US and Canada had.
Dude, I didn't say there was no immigration to Europe before and we're obviously not talking about immigration from within European countries. I was talking about immigration "on such a large scale" to Europe, although you're correct that the 1st wave of immigration started in the 60's to many countries. The number of immigrants from outside Europe has pretty much doubled since the early 80's if I'm not mistaken, whereas the overall population growth has been less than 20%. Here's couple of mind-blowing stats (source Wiki):

* Since 1970 the immigrant population in Norway from countries in Asia (including Turkey), Africa and South America, has gone from 3500 to 300,000 in 2011 - an 85 fold increase and going from less than .1% of the population to 6%!!!

* Since 2000, Spain has absorbed around 3 million immigrants from outside the EU, adding 6% to its population!
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#14
There could also be another explanation for this. Being American is more of an ideology, you either accept it or you don't, but you are not really subscribing to be an American citizen per se, but more or less an American in way of life.
That is very true. You can be an "American" even if you can't find America on the map. What does being French or German mean, other than you have a blood line going back hundreds of years? Sadly, the country lets in millions who end up hating the country or have nothing to contribute but millions who truly love to be here are left out.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#15
That's interesting. What policies have they put in place especially with regard to the Turkish immigrants?
lots of good things....mainly first thing they did was to change the law for nationality and citizenship. If you are born after 2000 and one of your parents is a German resident for over 8 years, you will be German citizen. You also have the option to keep two citizenship and then decide when you are 18 where you want to go to. That was the biggest step probably.

Further, they pushed a lot of people with foreign roots both into politics and social life in general. Also the national team, if you compare it with years past, is much more multicultural. Guys like Ozil and Khedira might have opted to play for the nation of their parents.
Also, the public debate on foreigners and immigration turned out to be more open and honest than anywhere else. You also have the possibility to get a work visa if you are highly qualified with allows you to bring your wife(with work visa) and kids with you, which is not a given everywhere.

Overall, they did many things right. They had a red-green coalition in the 2000s and although they got a lot of flack for the reforms they came up with, more or less all of them were kept afterwards and followed and whatever success they have now, also with employment and everything, is down to that era.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#16
lots of good things....mainly first thing they did was to change the law for nationality and citizenship.
That's a good point too. Living somewhere and not being a citizen can definitely lead to a lot of resentment. that's obviously an issue that does not exist in Canada & the US. I think we have one of shortest paths to citizenship (3 years). Another one of the nice recent additions, if I'm not mistaken, is that you automatically become a Canadian citizen if you're born to a Canadian citizen even if you were born outside Canada.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#17
That's a good point too. Living somewhere and not being a citizen can definitely lead to a lot of resentment. that's obviously an issue that does not exist in Canada & the US. I think we have one of shortest paths to citizenship (3 years). Another one of the nice recent additions, if I'm not mistaken, is that you automatically become a Canadian citizen if you're born to a Canadian citizen even if you were born outside Canada.
yeah but as an example, in France you get a citizenship by birth right and not by blood. However, you have a lot of problems there and it's not only with Arabs but also with those from DOM TOMs. A lot has to do with what is offered to them and what policies are taken. In France as an example, a lot of companies didn't give you a job based on the ZIP code you applied from. Parts of Paris are whiter than any US suburb. It's complicated, though I agree that a passport helps.
 
Aug 27, 2005
8,688
0
Band e 209
#18
why are muslims not as fanatic in the U.S as in Europe? There is got to be an explanation for that. Maybe it has to do with the European welfare system and the way they are taking care of by the Government. They have a lot of free time on their hand to spend in Mosques or amongst other Muslims, who mostly live in ghettos and low-income neighborhoods that feeds radicalism and extremism.
In the U.S., there is no time for that crap. You either work and make money or you would die of hunger and have to sleep in the streets. That might play a factor, but I am really fishing here.
Simple! Their number is 0.6 % of the population. Wait until they grow to 10 to 12%, UK will have a sigh of relief when they read news coming out of Detriotstan or Philistan. :D

Even with 0.6% they were already able to remove 10 commandments and Bibles from public places, convert "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays", already pushing for sharia laws in family matters (for the start) in Michigan and Ohio, have established Namaz khaaneh in schools and public places, have their own slaughter houses and groceries. As I said problem will start as soon as they pass the 10% point which by looking at birth and immigration rates is approaching real quick. ;)