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Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,576
0
عمو تو که باز همان حرف را تکرار میکنی
چه ربطی داره که من مثلا حتی گاو پرست باشم یا اصلا به توتم اولیه اعتقاد داشته باشم
مگر من اسلام رو با بهاییت مقایسه کردم
درست مثل این است که یک ادم زشت از یک کوتوله منگول که میخواد نقش هنرپیشه اول فلمی رومانتیک رو بازی کنه
انتقاد کنه و یکی بگه تو خودت زشتی از این منگل انتقاد میکنی؟!!!ا
خوب وقتی ایشون (میهن دوست ) می فرمایند که چاره همه مشکلات عالم بهاییت است
درست مثل ان است که یهکوتوله ادم قوزی (گوژ پشت)زشت رو بخوای
تو فیلم رومانتیک قهرمان داستان بکنی و دخترا کشته و مردش باشن
اینجا من کچل و شپشو و لوچ و زشت هم باشم می بایستی انتقاد کنم
در مورد موضوع جن هم باز تکرار میکنم بیا یک ترید بزن تا برات در مورد جن صحبت کنم
تو حتی نمیدونی در مورد چی صحبت میکنی
توضیح مفصل میدم تا هم تو هم دیگران فیضی ببرید
ولی وسط بحث در نرو به صحرای کربلا نزن و از جن نپر به ایات مکی و مدنی
حالا اگر میخوای برو یک ترید بزن و در اینمورد بحث میکنیم

Are you kidding? You think I am going to waste my time and other people's time here to talk to you about Jinns? I was just exposing your belief here, so everyone can see how stupid they are, and who is criticizing other religions. You should talk to other muslims, like Playboy, about Jinns, va halesho bebar. Khoda roozito jayeh digeh bedeh pesar jaan.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,576
0
And usually they can, those that want to hear, can and will relate to it. And like other facets of life, a new revelation also renews the language and creates its own style. This is the Baha'i style of literature, and most find it beautiful and inspiring. What you are proposing would be the example of an athlete that doesn't want to do the work, but expects results. If one does not exercise one's literary muscles, one is not going to be more trained. As for Akhunds, fortunately there are none and one and all have to read and form their understanding. That is not to say there are no discussions and reflections, but none can impose their understanding to others. Be well.
Seriously? Your prophet expected people to go through higher education to understand him. Is this a religion for highly educated or all? As I said, and as you know, most people in Iran would not and do not understand that language. I have not heard you disagree with that.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,236
12
Las Vegas, NV
Not only that, the Farsi version won't even be understood by most people who have finished high school in Iran. Then you will need people like Akhund to come and explain the teachings. Being able to write in simple terms so everyone can understand is the real art.
That is the main problem right there. When the Farsi version is not understood by most people, then you need to rely on an Akhound's interpretation, which you KNOW is going to be biased. I trust what an Akhound says, about as much as I trusted what a Soviet Communist said, back in the day. When you do not write in a modern language, you have to rely on others and there is always going to be a bias. It is not just with writing, it can be applied to music as well. One thing the Communists in Russia were great at, was composing simple yet effective Socialist propaganda music. The reason why they were so successful is even if you did not have a high school education or even know how to speak Russian, you can get the message. The true art of writing or being a good orator is be able to communicate your message to the masses. If you can do that then you are good and if you have to explain yourself after, then you need to go back to the drawing board.
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,822
2
Seriously? Your prophet expected people to go through higher education to understand him. Is this a religion for highly educated or all? As I said, and as you know, most people in Iran would not and do not understand that language. I have not heard you disagree with that.
So, you want me to prove to you that people in Iran can understand that language?!
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,822
2
I wanted to conclude my remarks by saying that if a message is a message of love and friendship, it would be understood. It will endure the test of times, it will conquer hatred and animosity. Such has been the story of great Persian poetry and literature from centuries ago, from Rudaki, Saadi, Hafiz, Molana, Khayyam, Attar and many more who under the most difficult and suffocating hardship gave people reasons to hope. It still endures and is the source of inspiration and hope for millions. This is the characteristic of the language of love, it is genuine, it is from the heart and goes to the heart. It doesn't need fancy education and degrees, it only needs a pure and radiant heart. And in that spirit I finish by saying "O friend, in the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love..."
ای دوست در روضه قلب جز گلِ عشق مکار
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,236
12
Las Vegas, NV
Fortunately the Baha'i writings have been translated to almost every language so people can read it in their native tongue.
Well that is good because I can speak Persian/Farsi but my writing sucks, probably a 2nd grade level and I am being generous. Fortunately, that is not a problem because I can read it in English or Russian so problem solved on that end. At least they took the time to translate into other languages so everyone can understand.
 
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Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,822
2
Ardesheer, There is no need for me to dispute because the reality is something else and is evident in Iran as well as around the world. And not that I have an aspiration to convince you of anything, but since you insist, do you understand this short passage, and do you think people in Iran understand it? Others as well, feel free to share your thoughts if you wish.

منت خدای را عز و جلّ که طاعتش موجب قربت است و به شکر اندرش مزید نعمت. هر نفسی که فرو میرود ممد حیات است و چون بر میاید مفرحِ ذات
 
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TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,236
12
Las Vegas, NV
I would greatly appreciate an English translation of the passage my friend. I took the time to learn the language but as mentioned before, I have a 2nd grade writing and reading level. I feel that the best way to remove our prejudices is to study that cultures: history, art, music, language, genealogy, history and theology. Fortunately, I love those subjects. I thank you in advance in Iran I saw toos e Ferdowsi and that was very cool for me, back in 06 before the Navy. As he said, "Knowledge is power."
 
May 9, 2004
14,747
5
Are you kidding? You think I am going to waste my time and other people's time here to talk to you about Jinns? I was just exposing your belief here, so everyone can see how stupid they are, and who is criticizing other religions. You should talk to other muslims, like Playboy, about Jinns, va halesho bebar. Khoda roozito jayeh digeh bedeh pesar jaan.
الان میگی من مگه دیونه هستم که وقت خودمروصرف کنم در مورد جن بخوام سئوال کنم
این یعنی صد در صد حرف شما درسته
که خودش از نادانی و جهل بوجود می اید
شما به جن و یا هرچیزی که با علم کنونی جور در نمی اید مخالف هستید و فکر میکنید انچیزی که از نظر فیزیکی یا شیمایی و یا قوانین فزیکی
و کشفیات و نظریه های علمی مطابقت ندارد حرفی پوچ و چرت است
این مطئما بودن شما به عدم وجود مثلا جن از همین برمی انگیزد
اولا جن انچیزی است که از علم مادی پنهان است البته اون جنی که شما در موردش صحبت میکنی یکی از ان موارد است والا
کلمه جن یعنی هرچیزی که پوشیده شده است
چنانکه ما به بچه در رحم زن حامله جنین یا اجنه میگویم چون وجود دارد ولی از نظر پنهان است
این در مورد مفهوم کلمه جن
شما تنها علوم مادی ثبت شده کنونی را قبول دارید و هر انچیزی که در این چهار چوب نیست
را مزخرف و چرت می پندارید
چون مثلا علم میگوید انچیزی که با قوانینی که فیزیک انرا قبول دارد جور در نمیاید غیر ممکن است
هرچند که خود علم مثلا اشتباهاتی در مورد برخی از امور که قبلا علمی محسوب میشده و الان دیگر علم انرا رد کرده دارد
مثال ان : قانون انرژی و ماده است که فکر کنم اگر از بچه های قدیم باشی یادت هست که همه ما بلغور میکردیم که ماده و انرژی پایدار و ازلی وابدی هستند
که الان این رد شده
من اگراز تجربیات خود یا دیگران در مورد بسیاری از امور که اصلا غیر علمی است سخنی بگویم
صد در صد شما انرا قبول نخواهید داشت و انرا چرت می پندارید
مثلا بگم که مهرهایی هستند که اگر کنار به لیوان شیشه ای نزدیک کنی انها را خورد میکند
یا مثلااگر اب را روی فرگاز گذاشته اید که می بایستی در دمای 100 درجه به جوش اید وجوش میاید
تنها با نزدیک کردن با اینکه دمای اب تغیری نمیکند اب از قل زدن و بخار شدن می افتد که علم صد درصد چنین چیزی را قبول ندارد!!ا
تنها برای اینکه بدانی چیزهایی هست که حداقل با قوانین علم کنونی مطابقت ندارد ولی وجود حسی دارد برایت این ویدئو را پست میکنم
تا ببینی که هم روسها و هم امریکایی ها از این فراعلم که کاملا از قوانین مادی علمی کنونی به دور است استفاده میکنند
جن یا هرچیزی که تو انرا باور نداری در همین رتبه هستند که تو میخواهی با علم مادی بسنجی
و اگر تطابق نکرد انرا رد میکنی
می توانم دها مثال بیاورم که همه غیر علم مادی هستند ولی وجود دارند و نمی توانی انها را انکار کنی مثال خواب و رویا
تله پاتی
احساس های مبهم و غیر علمی
تاپیرات افکار عمومی و پخش یک فکر در یک جامعه حتی اگر این فکر از هیچ شحصی بروز نکند (اگر خواستی بیشتر این را توضیح میدهم )ا
اینجا بد نیست یکی از تجربیات شخصی خودم که ربط به این ویدئو دارد را بگویم
یاد دارم قبل از انقلاب جواهراتی را از خانه ما دزدیدند نه اثر انگشتی بود نه هیچ دلیلی که چه کسی دزدیده
پلیس هم درماند تا یکی از پیره زنها خانواده پیشنهاد عجیبی کرد
او گفت که یک نفر هست که می تواند ببیند که چه کسی جواهرات را دزدیده الته به اصطلاح دعا نویس هرچند که ن دعایی در کار است نه نوشتنی !!ا
البته همه ما گفتیم این جادو و جمبل ها فقط به نفع اون طرف است که میخواهد پولی به جیب بزند
ولی مالباخته قبول کرد رفتیم انجا طرف یک ظرف پر از اب گذاشت جلوش و یه دختر بچه رو هم اورد و گفت توی ظرف نگاه کن چه میبینی
دختره که انگار جاود شده بود خیلی دقیق وصف جواهرات و خانه را داد وکه انگار دارد فیلم انرا را می بیند
لحظه به لحظه دخول دزد و شکل دزد و چگونگی برداشتن جوهرات چطور وارد شد و کجا رفت با چی رفت را میگفت !!ا
چنان وصف دزد را دقیق داد کرد که شناخته شد
من میدانم بسیاری چنین تجربیاتی را ندارند وانکار کردن یا مضحک دانستن چنین چیزهایی حق انهاست
جون نه منطقی است نه علمی نه غیر قابل پذیرش
این ویئو را می گذارم اگر وقت کردی نکاه کن تا بدانی همه چیز را نمی توان با علم مادی کنونی قبول یا رد کرد
هر چند که در این ویدئو امریکا زیرکانه می خواهد بگوید که ما دیگه چنین برنامه هایی را بکار نمیگیریم ولی
این تنها یک بلوف است الان هم امریکا هم روسیا هم ایران و برخی دیگر از کشورها چنین ابزارهایی را بکار میگیرند
حتی فرا تر از تله پاتی
فکر نکن که علم کنونی همه چیز را می داند یا حتی بسیاری از چیزها در حیطه علم هستند
[video=youtube;LT3sgAwMMWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3sgAwMMWA[/video]

 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,822
2
I would greatly appreciate an English translation of the passage my friend. I took the time to learn the language but as mentioned before, I have a 2nd grade writing and reading level. I feel that the best way to remove our prejudices is to study that cultures: history, art, music, language, genealogy, history and theology. Fortunately, I love those subjects. I thank you in advance in Iran I saw toos e Ferdowsi and that was very cool for me, back in 06 before the Navy. As he said, "Knowledge is power."
Not an official translation, but something to the effect that: [Praised be God the Powerful the Glorious, whose obedience causes drawing nigh unto Him and giving thanks (causes) exceeding blessings. Every breath that goes in extends life and as it comes out, refreshes the soul]. It is from master of speech (Ostad-e sokhan) Saadi, the great poet, philosopher, and mystic Sufi of the 13th century Shiraz whose poetry and prose (such as this one) are taught in schools.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,236
12
Las Vegas, NV
Not an official translation, but something to the effect that: [Praised be God the Powerful the Glorious, whose obedience causes drawing nigh unto Him and giving thanks (causes) exceeding blessings. Every breath that goes in extends life and as it comes out, refreshes the soul]. It is from master of speech (Ostad-e sokhan) Saadi, the great poet, philosopher, and mystic Sufi of the 13th century Shiraz whose poetry and prose (such as this one) are taught in schools.
First of all thank you for the translation. I had no problems understanding the message in English. Based on that, I think most people in Iran should understand this passage. I have been told if you have a 3rd grade education, you can read the newspaper in Iran. I do not know what grade they start teaching poetry in Iran. Therefore, to answer your question from before, I think the majority of Iranians WOULD understand the passage, I do not think you need a college education for it. I heard of Saadi before, along with all of the other great Persian Philosophers, Omar Khayam, Rumi/Molana, Hafez ETC. That was a beautiful message I am sure in Persian it is much more beautiful because it's in it's original context. It is kind of like trying to translate Shakespeare into Spanish, it won't be exact and as pretty but you can understand it.
 
Feb 18, 2005
11,932
26
Ardesheer, There is no need for me to dispute because the reality is something else and is evident in Iran as well as around the world. And not that I have an aspiration to convince you of anything, but since you insist, do you understand this short passage, and do you think people in Iran understand it? Others as well, feel free to share your thoughts if you wish.

منت خدای را عز و جلّ که طاعتش موجب قربت است و به شکر اندرش مزید نعمت. هر نفسی که فرو میرود ممد حیات است و چون بر میاید مفرحِ ذات
Asaayesheh 2 geety tafseer e in 2 harf ast ....baa doostaan morovat ...baa doshmanaan modaraa
 

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Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,822
2
First of all thank you for the translation. I had no problems understanding the message in English. Based on that, I think most people in Iran should understand this passage. I have been told if you have a 3rd grade education, you can read the newspaper in Iran. I do not know what grade they start teaching poetry in Iran. Therefore, to answer your question from before, I think the majority of Iranians WOULD understand the passage, I do not think you need a college education for it. I heard of Saadi before, along with all of the other great Persian Philosophers, Omar Khayam, Rumi/Molana, Hafez ETC. That was a beautiful message I am sure in Persian it is much more beautiful because it's in it's original context. It is kind of like trying to translate Shakespeare into Spanish, it won't be exact and as pretty but you can understand it.
You are welcome. Baha'u'llah said "regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom."

Point being that writings from Saadi and other great poets are not very easy and common language, in fact they never were, yet education causes people to learn them and benefit from their wisdom. Education is the key. It would be a grave error in judgement to discount and disregard Baha'i writings on the account of Islam and people's possible aversion to it today. This would be to the detriment of the people, as it has been for nearly two centuries, not due to some force, but simply because they deprive themselves of its possible benefits.

This is what the mullahs of Iran want, for people of Iran to stay in the darkness and in the grip of superstition and dogma, throwing prayers in a well for a saviour to appear and fix everything. And they and their agents derail and discount any attempt at a meaningful discussion about Baha'i claims, its teachings and principles to matters of below the waist that they are good at and enjoy. Is it any wonder that they immediately delve into their perception of matters of lust and greed never wondering who was Baha'u'llah? This person that appeared from our homeland and has followers in all corners of the globe, what were His claims, why was He banished from His homeland, what did He teach, is any of it relevant to the challenges of our time in Iran and elsewhere? Never mind becoming a Baha'i, can any of His ideas be useful to our centuries old tests and trials in Iran? Can this broken nation be united again? Can we use anything in what He said? Why have the mullahs been steering us from His teachings? If now, we know the truth about the machinations and treachery of the mullahs, could perchance they be wrong about Baha'u'llah and His teachings? Could they have been misleading us? Are we going to investigate for ourselves, or are we so steeped in prejudice and so hardened in our hatred that while we have discovered the truth about the mullahs, we are going to continue to take their word on Baha'u'llah? Are we going to be veiled by our prejudice and preconceived notions on Islam, Arabs, use of language, what my cousin's neighbour's friend said and other hearsay or actually investigate for ourselves from the source?

That is the most bizarre predicament that Iranians seem to have put themselves in and this unreasonable prejudice will continue to deprive them of the truth and retard the progress of the nation! Fortunately, breezes of change are wafting ever so gently and ere long lasting and meaningful progress will be made...
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,236
12
Las Vegas, NV
Once again thank you for translating these wonderful messages and I could not agree more. Education is the key, that is the theme of most of our poets/philosophers. I put that / because we have our philosophy hidden in poetry. If it were meant to be easy to understand then nobody would learn. What hte Mullahs want is for the people to be sheep, blindly obey and and listen while they throw an Islamic prayer. It is interesting last time I was in Iran I spoke with an honest Mullah and he mentioned that the Islamic Revolution was the WORST thing that happened to the Mullahs. This was at that famous bazar in Esvahan and he was speaking PERFECT ENGLISH. He notices me and starts by saying, 'Welcome to Esvahan." We had a chai and chatted it up, it was one of the most interesting conversations I ever had. I am not pro shah or IR but he said something very surprising, He said, "Back in Sha's time, the clergy in Iran was actually respected." I was shocked when he added, "Our reputation got tarnished because unfortunately there are some very bad Mullahs who spread nothing but propaganda and hate." What is interesting is a man in a green police uniform, which was a religious police officer, heard our conversation and asked if he could sit and listen.
Of course being the open minded guy that I am, I said please have a seat, would you like a cup of tea?" He too spoke English but with an accent. Anyways, I hope that the people of Iran go back to the old Zartooshti roots one day and also those who are Baha'i can practice their faith, in peace. I fully understand the message now that you translated it to English. I understand that when you translate, it is not exact or 100%. After I learn Spanish, I will go back to perfecting my Persian and Russian, plus strengthening my German. Again when we learn more languages, we remove our prejudices and education is the key. You can study different philosophers, poets, in their language. I am very blessed because there are many great Persian, German and Russian philosophers I can draw on. One of my favorite quotations is by Nietzche, "Without music life would be a mistake." Once again, you put thought into your reply and taught me some new things so I appreciate that. Oh and some of my family were like, "That religious officer did not do anything?" I said, "Sure, He thanked me for the cup of tea and shook my hand."
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,822
2
TeamMeli,

Thanks for your genuine and thoughtful reply, I have learnt a lot from you as well, and people like you give me reasons to have hope for the future of Iran. I encourage you to investigate the teachings of Baha'u'llah, not because I want to become a Baha'i, that is a personal choice, but rather to glean from it solutions that will apply to the plight of our nation. You have a pure heart and an open mind that have not been steeped in prejudice, let them not be sullied by the passing fancies and vain imaginings of a materialistic world, let them not be influenced by the "mob mentality" that has suffocated Iran for so long.

You mentioned music, in Baha'i writings it has been said that "...music is a ladder by which souls may ascend to the realm on high. Change it not into wings for self and passion..." The thing with ladder is that we can go up on it, or go down! Unfortunately too many go down these days. I hope you are involved in music and make it a means of elevating souls.

I also liked your story about your visit to Iran. The Iranian society is very hospitable and kind, but also among the most prejudiced and oppressed. Also, for quite some time it has been under the attack of various invaders from Arabs to Mongols, Turks, etc. It has not been an open society, except for brief periods. This I believe is the reason for Mysticism and the veiled language in many of its writings. Great poets often lived under the most ruthless rulers, for instance Attar who was killed by the barbaric Mongols, yet managed to get their message of hope and love out, a message that has survived the test of times. I do believe that a great and bright future awaits Iran and its people.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,236
12
Las Vegas, NV
I did not know the Bahia's love music so much. This passage really struck a cord with me, "music is a ladder by which souls may ascend to the realm on high. Change it not into wings for self and passion..." I grew up secular but if you put a gun to my head and say pick I would probably say Russian Orthodox or Lutheran because that is what I grew up with. I know you are not trying to convert me to the Bahai faith however, I shall study the teachings of Baha'u'llah. I know about the problems of prejudice in Iran, and I felt it when I visited some family in Tabriz. Another remember mentioned, "IF you are black, don't let the sun hit your back in East Azerbaijan." Sadly, it is true and like all cultures, there is good and bad. My cultures all have one thing in common, be it Germanic/Bavarian Slavic Russian or Azeri Irooni. Since these cultures are very much homogeneous, the prejudice and racism is real. I have heard so many stupid remarks like, "Marry a German or Russian girl to keep the bloodline pure."
How stupid is that mentality, if I marry a German or Russian girl, it is because there is a common language, culture, customs and an understanding. However, I am open minded and dated girls from other cultures, even black girls(shocking to some of my family members) but again I do not see color. I have one theory why it is magnified in East Azerbaijan. That region is very mountainous, the Arbas and Mongols never reached there, from my understanding. That is why Azeris, Russians, and Germans have this mentality of keeping the bloodline pure.
I have found Iranians to be very welcoming to farangi people/foreigners. Although I have an Iranian passport, they view me as a foreigner, despite the fact that I can speak the language. My dad explained it to me though that unlike the USA, where people are mean and hate foreigners, Iran is not like that. Everywhere I went in Iran: be it Tehran, Mashad, Shiraz, Tabriz or Esvahan, I was welcomed with open arms. `
I hope one day there is a brighter future for Iranians and Iran. In order for that to happen though, we must be patient and wait. As I always preach, patience is MASTERY. One day, in my lifetime, there will be a revolution against the Islmaic Republic. I mentioned this story before. When I was 8, on Friday, my school went to a camping trip, in Sequoia National Forrest. I come back on Monday and look at the LA times and see SOVIET UNION is NO MORE. CCCP/ZSSR is GONE and my dream came true. I hope the same thing happens again, one day for Iran. I would like to return to Iran one day but it is not safe for me right now because I happened to be an American military officer. If they discover my military record, I am as good as dead and even my dad mentioned that it is too risky. In the meantime I will use my other PP's and visit Germany and Russia. Good thing if one of your family was born in those countries, you can become a citizen of Germany or Russia. I have a weird and interesting familial history but I am diverse, and a true representative of Americans. I am basically a Euro mutt but I am open minded because I grew up with different languages being spoken in the house and was raised in So Cal, a cultural melting pot. I hope that one day our hamvatnas rise up. One thing is we can't do it with foreign help, this must be from within we can't have a foreign boot in our soil or it will make it illegitimate. I pray for the future of Iran and wish all of my Iranian brothers and sisters, domestic and abroad, all the best. Of course I mean the good Iranians, such as yourself. Take Islam out of Iran, i know it will always be apart of the culture but don't make it the focal point and apart of the government. There should be a genuine separation of church and state. what I mean by church is religion not Christianity.
 

Meehandoost

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Sep 4, 2005
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TeamMeli

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Feb 5, 2014
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As it happens recently on Voice France: beautiful music by Gulaan a New Caledonian Baha'i about the concept of "progressive revelation"...

Source: http://bahaiblog.net/site/2018/01/new-caledonian-bahai-sings-voice-france/
Wow that is beautiful thank you for sharing, as a classical pianist and someone who can sing(it's in the Slava/Bavatrian dna), I respect anyone who can do that. The toughest thing in the world to do is play an instrument while singing. What language was he singing in? He blew the judges away, moved the one dude to tears. That is not usually the type of genre or music that I listen to normally but I liked it very much. My people can spot musical talent, on both sides the man has skills. So I am assuming this competition is over do you know how did he do no that show did he go far, did he happen to win? I have no idea what the guy was singing but it sounded very nice, job well done, I salute him. Thank you for sharing my friend, that was perfect because it's early in the morning here, and that is a nice way to start the day, with some peaceful music.