http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...burka-ban-police-arrest-two-veiled-women.html
All I have to say is GOOD. About time.
All I have to say is GOOD. About time.
I feel torn on this issue because I do believe that burkas are an antiquated, oppressive practice that only women are subjected to, which I don't think has a place in free societies. However, it also seems pompous of a country and totally against freedom of expression and basic human rights to force its beliefs about a religion and its practices on 6 million people. Having said that, I do dig the part where men get fined more and go to jail for forcing their wives and daughters to wear the veils – it should be a choice, not an edict.
I believe in freedom to wear whatever you want. However, I also believe in dress codes and common sense. I would not hire teachers who want to look like ninjas but employers are increasingly afraid to enforce dress codes these days. There was a case in Florida where the woman wanted to be photographed in a burqa for her driver license. The case went to court and I think she lost.
I have no problem with any country imposing a rule demanding to see someone's face in the government offices. This to me is no different than demanding a finger print or retinal scan for identification purposes. But the level of ignorance among not only the French officials but also among the reporters and their readers is striking. If you're going to ban something then at least learn, know and announce it correctly. What they've banned is not "burqa" which is the woman's loose body covering but rather the "neqab" or "niqab" which is the veil covering the face. Despite the majority of people who wear the "niqab" being Muslim it is not an "Islamic dress code". The majority of people who eat "kabab" or "hummus" are Muslims as well but only an ignorant fool would refer to these foods as "Islamic food". Some Muslims may follow the "holiatol mottaghin" book and enter the bathroom with their right leg first. But we all know that is not an "Islamic law".
^^^This is a dumb argument, sorry. It's like saying if you want to wear a suit learn how to say its name properly. Who cares what the name is or how it is pronounced. Call it whatever you want. The French don't have to know anout Burqa or Neqab anymore than Iranians, for example, have to know the name of some traditional french attire.
Anyway, on a more sensible note, we have been told for years and years that when westerners go to moslem countries they should wear hejab because that's the law of those countries. This is often uttered by the very moslems living in the west who want their women to cover themselves. Well then, here you are, a law in France that bans you covering your face (call it what you want). Let's see how many hypocrites cry foul.
Anyway, on a more sensible note, we have been told for years and years that when westerners go to moslem countries they should wear hejab because that's the law of those countries. This is often uttered by the very moslems living in the west who want their women to cover themselves. Well then, here you are, a law in France that bans you covering your face (call it what you want). Let's see how many hypocrites cry foul.
Ashtar, where do you draw the line on articles of clothing such as neghab. "Government office" is too restrictive. I can go through a year and never set foot in a "government office". A more practical question is should Macy's hire a cashier who insists on wearing neghab? Teachers, police, bank teller, etc.
Behrooz i have seen you constantly compared European countries to the Arab/Muslim ones, and it's something that confuses me to this day. Yeah you do HAVE to cover your hair in a country like Saudia Arabia, but it's because they are a tyrannical and repressive country where minorities have no say or protection. France, England and the U.S aren't supposed to be like this. When you don't like a law you don't just pack up and leave, you advocate for your rights. Rights that are supposed to be protected btw.
For you guys to say that Niqab is backwards and forced is/could be true for the majority that wear it, but there are some woman who have made an educated (albeit not logical) decision to wear it. It's what they feel confortable with. Forcing these woman (or even the ones that wear it because they have been indoctrinated) to remove the Niqab would have the same psychological effects as ripping off a normal western womans shirt off as she's walking around in public. Or to avoid hyporbole, it would be equivalent to FORCING all "western" women to wear skirts.
Us Iranians know how demoralizing it is for a government to dictate modesty. We have seen it in our mothers, sisters, and any other important women in our lives. Now I know that most of us don't have family members who wear Niqab so it's hard to empathize, but it's something that we need to try and do. When i read about this law being passed, I can't help but think how miserable my grandma would be if the U.S passed a law banning hijab.
And i'm not even going to get into the whole underlying racial/ethnic tentions that led to this law being passed in France.
For you guys to say that Niqab is backwards and forced is/could be true for the majority that wear it, but there are some woman who have made an educated (albeit not logical) decision to wear it. It's what they feel confortable with. Forcing these woman (or even the ones that wear it because they have been indoctrinated) to remove the Niqab would have the same psychological effects as ripping off a normal western womans shirt off as she's walking around in public. Or to avoid hyporbole, it would be equivalent to FORCING all "western" women to wear skirts.
Us Iranians know how demoralizing it is for a government to dictate modesty. We have seen it in our mothers, sisters, and any other important women in our lives. Now I know that most of us don't have family members who wear Niqab so it's hard to empathize, but it's something that we need to try and do. When i read about this law being passed, I can't help but think how miserable my grandma would be if the U.S passed a law banning hijab.
And i'm not even going to get into the whole underlying racial/ethnic tentions that led to this law being passed in France.
Ramin jan, what do you think if someone makes "an educated (and not logical) decision" to walk down the road completely naked in the middle of Paris?
Or another who makes such a decision to wear a swastika on his arm?
Can such people advocate for their rights too?
What we have to understand is that France has a culture with unique customs and traditions, and face covers are not a part of that. What if you find that most French people are actually quite insulted to see a woman wear a face cover the same way as he is insulted to see someone wear a swastika, the same way many moslems find it insulting when a woman walks in their country wearing a mini skirt and a revealing bra?
The difference is that in France and Britain people are told to not say anything, they are fed this stuff about diversity and rights and they are constantly told that they have to live in multi-cultural societies. No one ever asked them if they wanted to, did they? Not as far as I know.
I have no problem with hejab in France or anywhere else. But I do have a problem with complete face covers and I am not bothered by repeating it again and again and even campaign against it.
Or another who makes such a decision to wear a swastika on his arm?
Can such people advocate for their rights too?
What we have to understand is that France has a culture with unique customs and traditions, and face covers are not a part of that. What if you find that most French people are actually quite insulted to see a woman wear a face cover the same way as he is insulted to see someone wear a swastika, the same way many moslems find it insulting when a woman walks in their country wearing a mini skirt and a revealing bra?
The difference is that in France and Britain people are told to not say anything, they are fed this stuff about diversity and rights and they are constantly told that they have to live in multi-cultural societies. No one ever asked them if they wanted to, did they? Not as far as I know.
I have no problem with hejab in France or anywhere else. But I do have a problem with complete face covers and I am not bothered by repeating it again and again and even campaign against it.
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How about Wales? 
I'm with "Natural" here. I do feel that some women are being forced to wear the "burqa" and they should not be ashamed of showing their flesh to the public. How do they wear it during the summer, it's beyond my imagination?! On the other hand, I believe people wear it because of their faith and a lot of religious people I know, whether it's Islam or Christianity, feel they have to do something in the name of Allah/God.
The French have taken the freedom off thousands of women in the country but I think it's due to paranoia. People go to the streets and give women wearing the burqa weird looks. It's unfair, yes - but I wish the French Government gave the minority a compromise because it's not nice seeing protests as the main news headline.
I'm with "Natural" here. I do feel that some women are being forced to wear the "burqa" and they should not be ashamed of showing their flesh to the public. How do they wear it during the summer, it's beyond my imagination?! On the other hand, I believe people wear it because of their faith and a lot of religious people I know, whether it's Islam or Christianity, feel they have to do something in the name of Allah/God.
The French have taken the freedom off thousands of women in the country but I think it's due to paranoia. People go to the streets and give women wearing the burqa weird looks. It's unfair, yes - but I wish the French Government gave the minority a compromise because it's not nice seeing protests as the main news headline.
Trying to ban something will end up causing problems. One should come to acceptance that both sides will continue to exist and trying to destroy one side will have throw the scale towards the other side to balance it. Up/down, negative/positive, good/bad, etc... Give the option to anyone who wants to wear hijab, but make it clear and advertise it heavily that the French government will enforce by any means, the freedom of children or anyone who does not want to wear it. No child should be abused by their parents into wearing it and they should have the French government protection against their parents.
Macy's and other private places have the right to set their own dress codes as they please and if anyone doesn't like it they can choose not to work there.
The government on the other hand has to show just cause for prohibiting and disallowing certain attire or practices in the governmental offices or in public places.
As far as the "niqab" is concerned I don't think the government has any just cause to ban it from public places unless purely for the purpose of identification. Otherwise they would have to ban sunglasses, hats, caps, wigs, scarves, ear muffs, face masks worn by people who have cold or are afraid to catch a cold, and even heavy makeup.
The government on the other hand has to show just cause for prohibiting and disallowing certain attire or practices in the governmental offices or in public places.
As far as the "niqab" is concerned I don't think the government has any just cause to ban it from public places unless purely for the purpose of identification. Otherwise they would have to ban sunglasses, hats, caps, wigs, scarves, ear muffs, face masks worn by people who have cold or are afraid to catch a cold, and even heavy makeup.
The point that the French, media and the public are ignorant is not an "argument" but rather an evident fact. The issue is not a matter of correct pronunciation of a term but using the correct terminology to begin with. When a government sets out to pass an obviously controversial law the least it can do is figure out the correct terminology. This is especially relevant in judicial and legal cases were even a single term or punctuation can make a difference in the interpretation and implementation of the law. This is not just a matter of different pronunciation of "tomato" for example but rather referring to "tomato" as "apple". LOL. To simply dismiss this fact is only to be expected from ignorant fools who would wish to cover and ignore their ignorance.
This law will only cause more ethnic clashes and problems in France. As far as I know it is NOT illegal to wear a swastika armband or something like that in France or the States. The Burqa does not threaten public order in any way and to compare it with a swastika is ridiculous to begin with even though displaying a swastika is not even illegal in most of Europe.
There can be an argument made for the ban in terms of republican values like equality and liberty. Basically to argue that the 'burqa' is in direct contradiction to French values such as equality.
However I think making the argument on the basis of moral values is a very fine line since it is exactly the same idea behind theocracies like Iran or Saudi Arabia to enforce a 'Muslim' way of life on all citizens.
I don't know what to make of this honestly but from a practical point of view it is ridiculous since it can't really be enforced.
There can be an argument made for the ban in terms of republican values like equality and liberty. Basically to argue that the 'burqa' is in direct contradiction to French values such as equality.
However I think making the argument on the basis of moral values is a very fine line since it is exactly the same idea behind theocracies like Iran or Saudi Arabia to enforce a 'Muslim' way of life on all citizens.
I don't know what to make of this honestly but from a practical point of view it is ridiculous since it can't really be enforced.
How about Wales?
I'm with "Natural" here. I do feel that some women are being forced to wear the "burqa" and they should not be ashamed of showing their flesh to the public. How do they wear it during the summer, it's beyond my imagination?! On the other hand, I believe people wear it because of their faith and a lot of religious people I know, whether it's Islam or Christianity, feel they have to do something in the name of Allah/God.
The French have taken the freedom off thousands of women in the country but I think it's due to paranoia. People go to the streets and give women wearing the burqa weird looks. It's unfair, yes - but I wish the French Government gave the minority a compromise because it's not nice seeing protests as the main news headline.
I'm with "Natural" here. I do feel that some women are being forced to wear the "burqa" and they should not be ashamed of showing their flesh to the public. How do they wear it during the summer, it's beyond my imagination?! On the other hand, I believe people wear it because of their faith and a lot of religious people I know, whether it's Islam or Christianity, feel they have to do something in the name of Allah/God.
The French have taken the freedom off thousands of women in the country but I think it's due to paranoia. People go to the streets and give women wearing the burqa weird looks. It's unfair, yes - but I wish the French Government gave the minority a compromise because it's not nice seeing protests as the main news headline.
In Islam and in its 'holy book' there is no mention of this Burqa type of cover for women. Its only fraction of "fundamentalists" in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,etc that you see some women wearing Burqa. Whereas millions of other muslim women wear ordinary cover and none of religious authorities have ruled against regular cover, in favour of Burqa.
And there are only few hundres of Burqa-wearing women in France. According to official stats. So its not "thousands"..
+ when even in majority of Islamic countries, Burqa is not majority or official tradition of covering the face, not sure why France(wt completely diff culture) has to allow this emerging type of face-cover in their country?!
thanks nilou khanoom, it is correct, even ghoran didn't talk about covering the face .however they all product of akhoundism and controlling women lives .
it is all about control ,if god didn't want woman's faces not be seen then from the first place could had figured out something different .
god created women beautiful just for sake of beauty ,not because some king or emam put couple hunderd of them in their haram ,only one person can enjoy those beauty . if that was the case then such a god should be in mental hospital .
it is all about control ,if god didn't want woman's faces not be seen then from the first place could had figured out something different .
god created women beautiful just for sake of beauty ,not because some king or emam put couple hunderd of them in their haram ,only one person can enjoy those beauty . if that was the case then such a god should be in mental hospital .
Of course they should have the right to advocate and fight for their rights Behrooz. I mean, we even have sanctioned KKK parades here, and the majority see them as idiots but they still have the protection of the law to express themselves.
I'm sure that the majority in most of these countries are also offended at seeing people with mohawks and septum piercings too, but it doesn't mean that those things should be banned.
Frances traditions and cultural values are not set in stone. They are determined by the people that live and work there, including those that wear Hijab. And as far as people "asking them if they wanted to", this is something that they have brought upon themselves. They went into a bunch of countries (Africa etc.), fucked those countries over, went on a guilt trip and started shipping the citizens of those countries to France without any idea on whether their current and future economy could handle the influx, and tried to force them to assimilate while most of them couldn't find jobs or money to support their families. So yes, they were asked about it. Now they have to deal with the fact that a large part of their population (CITIZENS, that have just as much right to be there and live the way that they want as others) doesn't completely agree with the old school idea of "french culture" and "identity".
And trust me Behrooz, if it was about asking the majority about who should stay or go , you and I would be packed on a plane and shipped back to Iran. This is not how a free country is supposed to be. This is not liberté, égalité, fraternité.
I'm sure that the majority in most of these countries are also offended at seeing people with mohawks and septum piercings too, but it doesn't mean that those things should be banned.
Frances traditions and cultural values are not set in stone. They are determined by the people that live and work there, including those that wear Hijab. And as far as people "asking them if they wanted to", this is something that they have brought upon themselves. They went into a bunch of countries (Africa etc.), fucked those countries over, went on a guilt trip and started shipping the citizens of those countries to France without any idea on whether their current and future economy could handle the influx, and tried to force them to assimilate while most of them couldn't find jobs or money to support their families. So yes, they were asked about it. Now they have to deal with the fact that a large part of their population (CITIZENS, that have just as much right to be there and live the way that they want as others) doesn't completely agree with the old school idea of "french culture" and "identity".
And trust me Behrooz, if it was about asking the majority about who should stay or go , you and I would be packed on a plane and shipped back to Iran. This is not how a free country is supposed to be. This is not liberté, égalité, fraternité.