Gotta love Canada!

Soroosh jaan, I think you're generalizing very different types of people into the same category and I'm guessing it's because you have not lived downtown. As someone who lived downtown for a few years, let me tell you that you are indeed living the life. You have great shopping, restaurants and entertainment practically at your door steps and I have visited friends who had roof top pools with a great view and a sexy crowd enjoying the sun and great music on a Saturday afternoon while the rat race burbs crowd is at Costco trying to save a dollar on 10 lbs. of chicken!
I agree that the Toronto landscape has changed a lot in the last 8 years since I lived there, with a lot of buildings popping up and not enough retail and service businesses to cater to them - but the energy levels you experience downtown are still not comparable to living uptown or in the burbs and that's not the crowd that spends an hour in traffic or on the TTC everyday to get to work and back. They normally walk or bike to work, live healthier lifestyles and are living their lives in the evenings rather than watching others live their lives on reality TV.
Azizjan, get real. We're talking about Toronto where it is below freezing most of the year and shitty the rest of the time. Enjoying the sun and sexy crowds at a roof-top pool?!! Biking to work?! LOOOLLLL!!

I don't subscribe to the burb's Costco weekend mentality either, but you're ignoring the forest for the trees. You lived in downtown and had some good days while observing a very very small portion of the population enjoying a few pool parties. The reality is much different.

The reality is most of the rat-race crowd living in matchboxes actually own cars and don't live anywhere near downtown. They don't attend pool parties and have never walked or biked to work in their life.


Even in 2005, I didn't know anyone who was not a successful professional, made less than $50k / year or was obsessed with their pink iDevice and if they wore brand names, it was because they could afford it and not to show off.
What's the significance of 2005? And you really didn't know anyone who mades less than $50K or was not a successful professional? DAMN!

Yes, most of them were liberal yuppies, but I did not meet a single person in the 3-4 years that I lived there that fell into the group you're describing - all that group lives uptown or in the burbs and the reason they're obsessed with their iDevices or what type of clothes they wear even if they can't afford it, is because they have nothing else to do at night but to watch the Kardashians on TV.
When did I say the group I mentioned lives where you used to live in downtown?!!
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
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Canada
Azizjan, get real. We're talking about Toronto where it is below freezing most of the year and shitty the rest of the time. Enjoying the sun and sexy crowds at a roof-top pool?!! Biking to work?! LOOOLLLL!!
Let's not take it into extremes bro. Other than this year which has been admittedly cold, the weather in Toronto was never unbearable or "below freezing most of the year". We only had a period of 3 months (Dec-Feb or Jan-Mar) where you'd see reduced activity because of the weather. Last year, we had an outdoor party in mid March and people were wearing shorts! Even now, with the coldest winter in at least two decades, if you go downtown during the day, you'll see people biking and walking to work, restaurants are still full at night and there are still line-up to get into clubs.

I don't subscribe to the burb's Costco weekend mentality either, but you're ignoring the forest for the trees. You lived in downtown and had some good days while observing a very very small portion of the population enjoying a few pool parties. The reality is much different.
The reality is most of the rat-race crowd living in matchboxes actually own cars and don't live anywhere near downtown. They don't attend pool parties and have never walked or biked to work in their life.
Sure, life in any big city in North America is a rat race whether you live in a horizontal matchbox in the burbs or a vertical one in the city. And I agree that the majority of the rat-race crowd owns cars and don't live anywhere near downtown. That was my whole objection to your post, because you related the "urban" lifestyle to living in matchboxes, the rat race, fear and insecurities. The truth is that the suburban lifestyle is no different, there's just as many matchboxes, more fear and more insecurity and if you start visiting some farmers in rural areas, they're working even harder than us and more worried and insecure about their future - they're just not as stressed as the rest of us. What I was trying to tell you that was MANY people pick and choose the urban lifestyle because they enjoy it and contrary to what you said, are living it up a lot more than the rest of us. That lifestyle may not appeal to you and I [anymore], but to take the moral high ground that we're somehow better than them or enjoying our lives more is just fooling ourselves IMHO.

What's the significance of 2005? And you really didn't know anyone who mades less than $50K or was not a successful professional? DAMN!
When did I say the group I mentioned lives where you used to live in downtown?!!
Sorry, I related "urban" in your post with downtown - I see you meant anyone living in cities now. 2005 is when I moved uptown, so my observations of the downtown crowd are only accurate to that point. And $50k was at the time how much you needed to support yourself with renting a one bedroom apartment without a car and still have enough money to have fun, take an occasional trip and enjoy yourself. Most yuppies I knew were making a lot more than that.
 
What I was trying to tell you that was MANY people pick and choose the urban lifestyle because they enjoy it and contrary to what you said, are living it up a lot more than the rest of us. That lifestyle may not appeal to you and I [anymore], but to take the moral high ground that we're somehow better than them or enjoying our lives more is just fooling ourselves IMHO.
Sorry I didn't mean it that way. I called the economics of it "pathetic", because no matter how the market wants to spin it, air-containers up in the air (they call them apartments) can't be worth more than physical fertile land. I can understand wanting to be close to the city-core and paying a premium for it, but to raise a 50 story tower in the middle of the suburbs (Mississauga, Brampton, North York, Scarborough) and stick a $500,000 price-tag on tokhmi match-boxes and then having them all "SOLD OUT" is simply fucked up.

Or maybe it's not. I don't know anymore. I just don't feel good about it.
 

ChaharMahal

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
16,563
261
question for you Canadians?
are hedge Funds and Private Equities buying massive number of Single Family or Condo Units over there as well?
 
question for you Canadians?
are hedge Funds and Private Equities buying massive number of Single Family or Condo Units over there as well?
No there's no need for it. We have our hedgers in the form of Chinese immigrants.

Here's what's happening:

The Chinese government built and sold millions and millions of apartment units to the Chinese middle-class. The mentality was "If you build it, they will come". This resulted in sprawls of ghost-towns and empty cities in China (as documented in recent years). They tightened some of the regulations and the building work slowed down.

Some of the luckier Chinese "new middle class" made it to Canada using whatever immigration program was available. They brought their hedge mentality with them. They're buying up whatever gets built in Toronto and Vancouver (often by Asian builders) at insane prices hoping to park their money in real estate and secretly wishing for a price-hike (not realizing the inevitable devaluation of dollar vs. Asian currencies in the future).

There's hedging activity in Canada, but nothing nearly as crazy as the US.

In reality, there's a massive real-estate overvaluation in most countries. Housing is unaffordable for most humans. There are markets (Canada, China, Iran and ...) where corrections are long overdue.
 
Oct 18, 2002
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Sorry I didn't mean it that way. I called the economics of it "pathetic", because no matter how the market wants to spin it, air-containers up in the air (they call them apartments) can't be worth more than physical fertile land. I can understand wanting to be close to the city-core and paying a premium for it, but to raise a 50 story tower in the middle of the suburbs (Mississauga, Brampton, North York, Scarborough) and stick a $500,000 price-tag on tokhmi match-boxes and then having them all "SOLD OUT" is simply fucked up.

Or maybe it's not. I don't know anymore. I just don't feel good about it.
I think you two are talking about two different groups of people. Most of the people BT is referring to are buying condos as investment. They don't live downtown. But the crowd that BH is talking about are the young professionals who actually live downtown. I suspect many of them are just renting condos not buying them.

As for the condo market, while the Chinese are certainly at the front of the buying frenzy, other non-European immigrant groups like Iranians and Indians and Arabs are not far behind. The mentality in their old countries is that the only valid type of wealth is real-estate. Sort of a feudal era mentality.
 

ChaharMahal

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
16,563
261
deerouz,
you are right immigrants tend to invest in things that have an intrinsic value.

you don't see immigrants that have made their living on a meager teacher salary pouring their hard earned money into stock or bond markets.

real-states can be overvalued (especially in a place like Iran or China). but even in the U.S 25% of GDP is construction related so it is not always a bad bet if you

use the dollar-cost-averaging-technique.

because with land or housing or building you can feel the asset. there is no PE, no Cashflow, no GAP vs Non-GAAP accounting,no bond rating.

worst comes to worse you just rent it out and hope in the long-term it will work out.

I am not sure what those immigrants are doing is all that wrong.
 
Oct 18, 2002
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deerouz,
you are right immigrants tend to invest in things that have an intrinsic value.

you don't see immigrants that have made their living on a meager teacher salary pouring their hard earned money into stock or bond markets.
I don't think there is any immigrant who had earned his wealth in home country on a meager teacher salary. Such person can hardly find a way to immigrate to Canada as an investor. The immigrant class who is buying real estate in Toronto as investment are typically those who had enough money in their home country or at least had some real estate that they are selling and bringing here. And comparing to what Canadians typically do for a living, the immigrant investor's money is not really "hard earned".

Nothing wrong with it, except small scale real estate (like a condo) is not a good business. I am not talking about using it in stock or bond markets. This capital can be used to build and grow a business which in the long run can be more profitable to the owner and more useful for the economy. In my opinion those who buy condos in downtown Toronto just contribute to real estate price inflation, and a housing bubble that would eventually burst (hopefully).
 
I don't think there is any immigrant who had earned his wealth in home country on a meager teacher salary. Such person can hardly find a way to immigrate to Canada as an investor. The immigrant class who is buying real estate in Toronto as investment are typically those who had enough money in their home country or at least had some real estate that they are selling and bringing here. And comparing to what Canadians typically do for a living, the immigrant investor's money is not really "hard earned".

Nothing wrong with it, except small scale real estate (like a condo) is not a good business. I am not talking about using it in stock or bond markets. This capital can be used to build and grow a business which in the long run can be more profitable to the owner and more useful for the economy. In my opinion those who buy condos in downtown Toronto just contribute to real estate price inflation, and a housing bubble that would eventually burst (hopefully).
Deerouzjan, you have to take into account the horrendous state of business startups in Canada too. Many of these immigrants indeed came here with the dream of starting a business. It costs NOTHING to start a business of course, but they're not stupid immigrants either. They do some research and realize the bureaucratic nature of Canada, the hidden costs, the layer after layer of red-tape they have to cross and the very unforgiving market. They hear story after story of a relative or friend getting forced to close down shop because of insane operation costs. They see no choice but to "park" their money in real estate.

The truth is, short of a very few food business startups (with much luck), there's little chance of a business to 'catch on' in this city. Big department stores and big service corporations have eaten up the whole market pool and have a long-enough arm to destroy the dreams of any entrepreneur at infancy. In a healthy economy, not every start up has to go totally "viral" before being deemed a success. Unfortunately, that's exactly what's required of a start-up these days in order for it to survive.

Of course, investors can always go for one of the existing big ass franchise business and settle for piss poor returns on their investment (A fast-food franchise with its massive royalty costs pays nothing and has a very small chance of surviving the first 5 years). Many people have gone bankrupt this way.

The average immigrant is getting more conservative and generally "smarter" with their money. They borrow at cheap rates from Canadian banks, and try to deposit as much as possible in off-shore accounts to get much better interest payments.
 
Alberta the only driving force for Canada's dead economy:

By Julian Beltrame, The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - When it comes to job creation in Canada, there's Alberta and then there's everybody else.

The latest employment data for February showed that the oil-rich western province created an impressive 18,800 jobs, largely in construction, mining and oil and gas, while in the rest of the country overall employment fell.

Economists warn against staking too much on any one-month data point, but the February result is no outlier.

As the Statistics Canada report issued Friday showed, Alberta is responsible for almost all the new net jobs generated in the past year — 82,300 of the 94,700 country-wide, or 87 per cent — as the province saw employment rise an impressive 3.8 per cent.

By comparison, provinces not called Alberta only gained about 12,000 which, for the purposes of the agency's survey, constitutes a rounding error.

"I know this is not a new story but it's becoming extreme," said Doug Porter, the Bank of Montreal's chief economist. "In the last 12 months, Alberta is the only province that's seen meaningful growth. They've had job gains of nearly four per cent and meanwhile six provinces have seen declines and one's been flat."

The other provinces in the positive territory, although far below Alberta's bounty, are Ontario with an overall pickup of 28,700, which given the large population base is only an increase of 0.4 per cent, and Saskatchewan, where employment rose a healthier 0.9 per cent by adding 5,200 net new jobs.

One way of looking at, says CIBC chief economist Avery Shenfeld, is that the labour market in Canada is working as it should. Canadians are moving to where the jobs are.

And the numbers do show that aside from creating jobs, the western province is steadily increasing its workforce, by 81,300 in the past 12 months alone.

But Shenfeld concedes it's a serious problem for provincial governments that are on the losing end of worker migration, sapping their ability to raise revenue and pay for services. While most provinces remain in deficit, Alberta on Thursday reported it would post a surplus this year, although some quibbled with the province's accounting practices.

A spokesperson from the Finance Department said the post-recession period, where over one million jobs have been created, does not show as dramatic a tilt toward Alberta, but added that in general the strong performance of the province's economy since 2009 has been "a positive thing for Canada."

Although the recent dramatic tilt may be exaggerated by cyclical factors, the direction of jobs flow has been apparent for some time.

With Canada's manufacturing sector on its knees and home construction tapped out, two of the biggest industries operating in heavily-populated Central Canada have essentially produced no net jobs in the past year.

And another big employer — government — has shed more than 41,000 workers as Ottawa and other non-resource provinces focus on eliminating deficits.

"These figures illustrate the folly of imposing public-service cuts on a stagnant job market," said Erin Weir, an economist with the United Steelworkers.

Canadian Labour Congress economist Angella MacEwen said there are essentially two labour markets in Canada, that one in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and the one in rest of Canada.

"The first thing to recognize is that there's a problem," she said, "because if we recognize what is happening, then the problem in Ontario, Quebec, the Atlantic provinces and B.C. looks much worse."

She and other labour economists are calling for governments to become more involved in the economy by spending on infrastructure, the green economy and other measures that, in the long run, create the conditions for economic expansion and hiring, adding that she would like to see Ottawa establish a forum with business and unions to thrash out ideas.

That would help, agrees Porter, but doesn't recommend governments going into deep debt to try and engineer a short-term fix. He notes the last federal budget did contain some measures that should help in the long term, including money for the Champlain Bridge in Quebec and the Windsor-Detroit bridge, along with money for the auto industry.

"If you treat it as something you try and accomplish in a short period of time, the results are only going to last a short period of time," he said.

In a speech earlier in the week, Bank of Canada deputy governor John Murray expressed some confusion about the economy's behaviour of late, acknowledging that it "has not been unfolding exactly as we had expected."

At the heart of the problem is that non-commodity exports, mostly manufactured goods, have been unusually weak given the strengthening global growth, he said.

And business investment has been soft despite "healthy corporate balance sheets," what former governor Mark Carney called the "dead money" problem.

The federal government has done its bit, Carney had observed, cutting corporate income taxes, but the bounty had not been put to work to expand and create jobs.

Carney's observation is now several years old, but while current Bank of Canada governor Stephen Poloz continues to point to what he calls the "rotation" from housing-driven growth to exports and investment, that still has yet to materialize.

Shenfeld believes the weaker Canadian dollar, once the new level at about 90 cents US has had a chance to flow through the system, will help elevate exports and create more jobs in the manufacturing sector. A robust U.S. recovery is also critical, something that is out of the hands of Canadian policy-makers.

As well, he says that given that gross domestic product growth has been stronger in the second half of 2013 than job creation, he believes there might be some catch-up going forward.

But the underlying truth will remain, he says, that given the global demand for resources, "the West is best" theme will continue in Canada for some time.?
 

ChaharMahal

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
16,563
261
It got to say Alberta a province of 4 Million creating 80K jobs is pretty impressive.

of course these jobs are not seasonally adjusted. It would be somewhat expected for Canadian Economy to slowdown in the coldest months of winter.
 
Oct 1, 2004
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It got to say Alberta a province of 4 Million creating 80K jobs is pretty impressive.

of course these jobs are not seasonally adjusted. It would be somewhat expected for Canadian Economy to slowdown in the coldest months of winter.
They're beasts in Alberta. They work through this weather! Especially on the rigs.
 

ChaharMahal

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
16,563
261
The U.S North Dakota Job Creation is also very similar to Alberta.

You can apparently get a job within two hours of arriving into North Dakota.

Jobs like Truck Driving.

Serving Food.

Operating the Rigs.

Of Course the cost of clean after all the oil is finished is really unknown.
 
There are dollar bills growing on trees in Alberta and the surrounding area these days. With the backlash against temporary foreign worker programs, it's not a bad time for younger and single folks in North America (specially Canadian ones) to attempt a few years of relative hardship and get their hands on the huge money/job pool.

The cost of living in Alberta has skyrocketed thanks to the spending by career holders and also home owners asking crazy sums for their property, but a smart single worker could live frugally enough to make the journey worthwhile.

I'm quite surprised by the lack of interest in quite a few of my single friends who refuse to leave their shitty jobs to go and earn a few bucks in Alberta/Saskatchewan. I'm doing okay here myself, but if I weren't, I wouldn't waste a second in Ontario's shitty economy. They're literally begging for workers, engineers and drivers in the oil patch.
 

ChaharMahal

Elite Member
Oct 18, 2002
16,563
261
Well Big City Boys in North America don't really like to the jobs that are physically hard.

They deem those jobs reserved for Blacks, Mexicans and White country Boys.
 
Well Big City Boys in North America don't really like to the jobs that are physically hard.

They deem those jobs reserved for Blacks, Mexicans and White country Boys.
Yeah the physically demanding jobs can be a bitch and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who wants to live past the age 60, but truck driving or engineering field jobs can't be that bad. The truck driving business is paying very well apparently. Some guy I know was claiming he averaged $8K/month net last year. That's around $200K gross in Canada.
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
Well Big City Boys in North America don't really like to the jobs that are physically hard.

They deem those jobs reserved for Blacks, Mexicans and White country Boys.
You know why? Because they all are eating, driving, have smart phones and cash to spend. All that with no work. Why go freeze your ass welding oil pipes?
 
You know why? Because they all are eating, driving, have smart phones and cash to spend. All that with no work.
Unless they're rich kids living in their parents' place and getting allowances, I honestly don't know anyone who can afford to eat, drive, have a smartphone and cash to spend without working these days.

Things are not good for the youth these days. They were told to get dime-a-dozen degrees in bullshit fields by their stupid high school counselors and now they find themselves having to learn entirely new trades just to get minimum-wage jobs. Thanks to shitty parenting, they consider these types of works "beneath" them, so what do they do? They enroll in 'yet another' school program only to rack up more debt.

The few who don't give up on the job-hunt, make silly attempts by doing free volunteer work in the name of "networking"!!! Some of them find comfort in sending personalized "cover letters" with their resumes! I can't believe people are sending fucking cover letters with their resumes and think it's 'normal'!

Then there are the very few lucky ones who actually end up getting decent jobs, but spend their very first paycheck on leasing the latest BMW. They get humongous mortgages that would fall out of their budget with the slightest increase in interest rates and think "WOW! I own my home!". Then when the job gets axed, well...
 
Oct 1, 2004
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I have quite a bit of experience with work in the prairies, actually all my experience is there and I can tell you it is very rare to see kids of non-prairie background doing field work, either as a laborer, operator or site engineer. It is very difficult physically. However the pay is phenomenal. You won't make honest money faster anywhere else in the world. And at least as an engineer you can sit in your truck every once in a while and warm up. Too many Iranian kids in Vancouver and Toronto are ok with taking mommy and daddy's money to go to a crummy community college, head to the bars on the weekend and party and then do nothing with their lives. Of course one needs to have fun but it frightens me how many Iranian parents are ok with their sons and daughters essentially being bimbos. They want jobs to come to them instead of going after them. Being away on site for a few years can throw them ahead in the work force but they don't like the discomfort. Even in Iran it is the same issue. Many engineers won't go to places in Khuzestan and Hormozgan, because they don't want to get "siah-sookhte" under the hot sun. As a disclaimer I should note I can be a lazy fool as well.

However to be fair, this issue is also prevalent among university educated Canadian kids. Kids think they can come in, work for a corporation, get a beautiful corner office job in downtown Toronto or Vancouver with tons of travel to exotic locales. Unfortunately these sort of jobs barely exist. Its even more difficult for kids who have degrees in fields such as international relations or history or... Don't get me wrong, I personally love those fields of study and am not trying to force the typical Iranian dismissal of university level studies of the humanities but one must have reasonable and realistic expectations. There are always exceptions, even today there are fortune 500 companies who have glorified HR staff on the board or with high up positions, but lets be fair it is pretty rare.

NOTE: The baby boomer generation would be just as whiny and lazy if they hadn't had things literally handed to them. They lived very straight forward lives where jobs were relatively plentiful and 2 years savings would get you an affordable mortgage in a decent neighborhood. Kids now have similar incomes but housing prices which are much higher. I sympathize.

In short - if you have young relatives or friends who are in any sort of technical field, let them know a few years of field experience is very good for them. Even if they're not interested financially, the experience alone is priceless.

About truck drivers - truck drivers hauling asphalt on paving jobs were making $48 CAD/hr 2 years ago. I don't know if its the same anymore, but that is double most other places in Canada. Rough life, but very profitable financially.
 
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