H.M SON , the best Asian player ever ?

Intoxicated

Bench Warmer
Dec 18, 2002
955
18
Toronto, Canada
This argument that Son has made it and plays football at a higher level than Karimi because Son gets regular play for Tottenham is ridiculous. First, Son plays for Tottenham, a club that does not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Bayern Munich let alone compared to say that they are on the same level. Quite frankly the team Karimi played for was stacked in the midfield and the German captain was playing the same position as Karimi. There was no way he was going to be preferred to start over Ballack no matter what. Second, Karimi didn't have the same luck that Son has every other week with Harry Kane consistently being injured because Ballack wasn't consistently injured. Third, Tottenham played a system with 3 strikers (see picture below) which continues to give Son triple the opportunity to start games compared to Karimi. Considering up until recently Tottenham didn't even have more than 3 strikers in their whole squad, Son was basically guaranteed a fixed spot in the lineup. As would any other player who would have been in the squad instead of him. And lastly, Karimi played for the more prestigious Bayern, because he is simply much more talented than Son. Which is why Son still has not been able to play for a real top club. He is in a great position at Tottenham where they have 2 strikers filling 3 attacking positions in their preferred formation. He would not be able to find that luck anywhere else.
Good point. But basically even if we were to agree on what you said, then you are basically saying Karimi was punching well above his weight right? Being signed by Bayern is one thing but not getting playing time basically means he wasn't good enough for that team.
Perhaps Karimi would have made it big in Spurs but again we are going back to my original point; he is simply not proven in top flight football. It's all ifs and buts. this is not my opinion but fact. How come other clubs didn't sign him?

This spurs team may not be Bayern Munich and as an Arsenal fan you can imagine how much I hate their guts but hey the made it to Champions League final and Son played a pivotal role it.

Similar to Karimi, Daei made it to a top club Bayern because he was a top player. Unlike Son who has not been able to make it to a top team.
Making it to top club means you are deemed to have a potential. But when you don't get playing time that means you are not good enough and a failed acquisition.

This is Daei's resume in Top flight football::
Years Team Apps(Gls)
1997–1998
Arminia Bielefeld 25(7)
1998–1999 Bayern Munich 23(6)
1999–2002 Hertha BSC 59(6)

This is Son's:
Years Team Apps(Gls)
2010
Hamburger SV II 6(1)
2010–2013 Hamburger SV 73(20)
2013–2015 Bayer Leverkusen 62(21)
2015– Tottenham Hotspur 164(59)

Are you suggesting Hertha of 1999 is better than Spurs? come on man the stats speak for themselves.

Yes Mahdavikia is one of the best midfielders in German football history and he will always be remembered as breaking one of their most prestigious records. Son played for Hamburg and could not match that achievement. He hasn't broken the assist or goals record in the Epl either.
Dude Son was 19-20 years old when he was playing for Hamburg !! and he was upgraded to Leverkusen and then Spurs....he didn't go from failing at Bayern Munich to Hetha !! I mean If you and and I are not connecting on these simple facts then let's drop the topic and agree to disagree.

Kia as good he was I wouldn't rate as 'Best midfielders in German football history' unless you are shortlisting over 15-20 midfielders that played in Bundesliga.
 
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Khabalood

Bench Warmer
Sep 26, 2004
1,836
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Toronto
Good point. But basically even if we were to agree on what you said, then you are basically saying Karimi was punching well above his weight right? Being signed by Bayern is one thing but not getting playing time basically means he wasn't good enough for that team.
Perhaps Karimi would have made it big in Spurs but again we are going back to my original point; he is simply not proven in top flight football. It's all ifs and buts. this is not my opinion but fact. How come other clubs didn't sign him?

This spurs team may not be Bayern Munich and as an Arsenal fan you can imagine how much I hate their guts but hey the made it to Champions League final and Son played a pivotal role it.


Making it to top club means you are deemed to have a potential. But when you don't get playing time that means you are not good enough and a failed acquisition.

This is Daei's resume in Top flight football::
Years Team Apps(Gls)
1997–1998
Arminia Bielefeld 25(7)
1998–1999 Bayern Munich 23(6)
1999–2002 Hertha BSC 59(6)

This is Son's:
Years Team Apps(Gls)
2010
Hamburger SV II 6(1)
2010–2013 Hamburger SV 73(20)
2013–2015 Bayer Leverkusen 62(21)
2015– Tottenham Hotspur 164(59)

Are you suggesting Hertha of 1999 is better than Spurs? come on man the stats speak for themselves.


Dude Son was 19-20 years old when he was playing for Hamburg !! and he was upgraded to Leverkusen and then Spurs....he didn't go from failing at Bayern Munich to Hetha !! I mean If you and and I are not connecting on these simple facts then let's drop the topic and agree to disagree.

Kia as good he was I wouldn't rate as 'Best midfielders in German football history' unless you are shortlisting over 15-20 midfielders that played in Bundesliga.
lol, your argument is so wrong on so many levels.

So to summarize your position Karimi is unproven and for that reason one of the top clubs at the world signed him and gave him over 30 appearances on a team that arguably had the strongest midfield in the world at the time. However, Son who played on a team that had only two strikers (for many years including himself and the other being consistently injured) on what can be regarded at best as an upper mid-table team is more talented.

What we do know as a fact is that Karimi is good enough to play for the best teams in the world, and that Son is not. Simply Son has not reached the level of playing the Karimi reached. He is playing on a smaller team and succeeding at that lower team competition level.

Yeah I'll give Son credit, he gets more appearances since he plays both wing forward positions and also as a CF. Due to his versatility and luck, playing for a team has a limited number of strikers and fields 3 forwards, he gets plenty of starts. He clearly has an advantage here over Daei in versatility. Daei was more limited in that he played one position and as far as I remember none of the teams he played for suffered from a lack of competition in the striking position or played 3 up front. I'll even give Son credit for scoring because he still has to convert after he is given the start.

However, do I for a second think he is more talented that Daei, NO WAY. Why because he cannot score against the insignificant teams in Asia. Conventional logic suggests that when a task is easy, you should be able to accomplish it with less difficulty. In this case it should result in an increase in goal production. Yet we see his insignificant international goal scoring which proves that he benefits from the sum of all parts at club level and not his own individual ability. Btw, Daei still has a great goal/appearances ratio for Bayern. I don't hold the fact that he wasn't given consistent starts ahead of the German national team players against him. Similar to Karimi, Daei made it to the highest level because he had exceptional talent, and he is a champion. Son hasn't achieved that.

I have no issue with Mahdavikia being short listed on the top 20 midfielders list for the Bundesliga. He deserves and earned that recognition. Son would not even make such a list.
 

Khabalood

Bench Warmer
Sep 26, 2004
1,836
106
Toronto
Peas are not conductive
Look at this passive aggressive insult. The writing is so poor that it is questionable as to which party the peas are meant to be.

As a mod, one would hope that you would set an example of good behaviour and not be the person instigating conflicts through personal attacks.
 

Intoxicated

Bench Warmer
Dec 18, 2002
955
18
Toronto, Canada
What we do know as a fact is that Karimi is good enough to play for the best teams in the world, and that Son is not. Simply Son has not reached the level of playing the Karimi reached. He is playing on a smaller team and succeeding at that lower team competition level.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. What we know is Karimi was DEEMED to have potential to play for the best teams but he couldn't make it. And because he never played for any other top European team he is UNPROVEN. That's a fact.

However, do I for a second think he is more talented that Daei, NO WAY
This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But, for the sake of our discussion let's stick to facts and numbers and not mix our opinions into this discussion. "Daie is more talented", "Karimi was not lucky" are all opinions and don't add much value.

I have no issue with Mahdavikia being short listed on the top 20 midfielders list for the Bundesliga. He deserves and earned that recognition. Son would not even make such a list.
Again you are bringing your opinion into this discussion. No stats to back this up.
 
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Khabalood

Bench Warmer
Sep 26, 2004
1,836
106
Toronto
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. What we know is Karimi was DEEMED to have potential to play for the best teams but he couldn't make it. And because he never played for any other top European team he is UNPROVEN. That's a fact.


This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But, for the sake of our discussion let's stick to facts and numbers and not mix our opinions into this discussion. "Daie is more talented", "Karimi was not lucky" are all opinions and don't add much value.


Again you are bringing your opinion into this discussion. No stats to back this up.
I completely disagree with the argument about Karimi being unproven for the reasons I stated before. Also we all know he suffered a devastating ankle injury which he never recovered from.

You literally ignored my whole argument, and claimed I didn't provide stats when I did. I think you should re-read what I wrote.
 

Intoxicated

Bench Warmer
Dec 18, 2002
955
18
Toronto, Canada
I completely disagree with the argument about Karimi being unproven for the reasons I stated before. Also we all know he suffered a devastating ankle injury which he never recovered from.

You literally ignored my whole argument, and claimed I didn't provide stats when I did. I think you should re-read what I wrote.
I did read the whole thing. I mean if you think 33 appearances over 2 seasons is something to be proud of well then let's just say our bench mark of success is different.

Btw, Daei still has a great goal/appearances ratio for Bayern
If you think Daei's 6 goals in 23 Bayern appearance (26%) is "GREAT"....well then I'll say you are a kind hearted person.

Let's agree to disagree and no longer continue this discussion.
 
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