BH jaan
I noticed you said a lot - yet did not answer my question......would you have supported the Shah sending tanks and planes to bomb the hell out of the ISlamists and Seperatists? I would have. And please be careful with the use of teh word "Civilian"......Guerilla warriors and missionaries are not considered civilians because they are wearing civilian clothes. Also - be very careful, nobody condones death of real civilians is Syria or anywhere......It is always tragic when a government bombs own urban areas. My example was meant to shed some light on a complex situation in which I think the so called Liberators will certainly be worst than Assad in my opinion.
I noticed you said a lot - yet did not answer my question......would you have supported the Shah sending tanks and planes to bomb the hell out of the ISlamists and Seperatists? I would have. And please be careful with the use of teh word "Civilian"......Guerilla warriors and missionaries are not considered civilians because they are wearing civilian clothes. Also - be very careful, nobody condones death of real civilians is Syria or anywhere......It is always tragic when a government bombs own urban areas. My example was meant to shed some light on a complex situation in which I think the so called Liberators will certainly be worst than Assad in my opinion.
BH jaan - I think you took it wrong - I have also had the same feelings as Shanin at times....there is no way anyone can be as stupid as some of these Hassan like creatures pretend to be. I often think they are teens just having fun with us when they see us get so frustrated over their commnets..........
You are falling for the moral equivalence argument. All through the cold war Soviet's actions were rationalized by saying America does it too. As for Syria, it is not a given that they will be worse. It depends how the Obama administration handles it. They have to steer the events, not watch it. US holds a tremendous hand through their potential arms supplies. They need people on the ground there to watch what is going on and not air drop arms hoping the right people get them.
I did answer your question Masoud jaan, but you missed or ignored all the important variables in asking the question again. If the Shah had continued on that path in '79, of imposing martial law, sending in the army and firing on unarmed peaceful civilians holding protests, and the death toll kept rising, and because of that those protests slowly escalated to an armed rebellion and over the next two years an all out war that killed 50,000 CIVILIANS (almost 90,000 including government forces and rebel fighters), led to a million Iranians (i.e. CIVILIANS) living in refugee camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan and 1/4 of the Iranian population (i.e. CIVILIANS) without basic necessities like food and water, I wouldn't be supporting the Shah regardless of who he was bombing or who captured what city! I would have wanted him removed from power long before it got to that point to allow for some sort of a transition that did not destroy whatever was left of Iran or endanger its territorial integrity.
Let me ask you a question... Considering that the IR has not even done a fraction of what Assad has done, if non-separatist armed Kurds were to take a city away from the IR, with the intention of keeping it in Iran, would you really be supporting the IR, even if say Turkey was helping the Kurds?!
Let me ask you a question... Considering that the IR has not even done a fraction of what Assad has done, if non-separatist armed Kurds were to take a city away from the IR, with the intention of keeping it in Iran, would you really be supporting the IR, even if say Turkey was helping the Kurds?!
I personally don't think they're stupid at all Massi joon - misinformed yes, but I don't think most people lack intelligence altogether. They just haven't learnt how to harness their intelligence or step out of the boundaries of what they've been taught for the fear of the unknown. Many kids are brought up that way, some of us learn to grow out of it and make our own decisions and some of us go through life repeating the lines, and walking the walk, that we've been taught. Those of us who finally learn to think for ourselves, do so almost exclusively because of the things and people that we come in contact with and the resulting experiences.
I can say with certainty in Hassan's case, that he does read and hears what other people are saying, because his answers are the standard response to that objection. With each level of objection, those standard responses become more and more difficult to justify even to oneself and slowly one has to learn to harness their intelligence to go beyond those standard lines to continue discussing topics.
So, there's no reason to either get frustrated with them and start calling them names or calling other people who like to take the time and engage them names. At the end of the day, Hassan represents a good segment of IR supporters and if anyone likes to continue to talk about democracy for Iran and Iranians, I suggest they learn how to engage this group and come to an understanding that democracy involves engaging and educating all groups within a society, not ignoring or eliminating the people that don't agree with us. I personally can't, in good conscience talk about and promote democracy for Iran and Iranians if I can't even practice it in such a small scale.
I can say with certainty in Hassan's case, that he does read and hears what other people are saying, because his answers are the standard response to that objection. With each level of objection, those standard responses become more and more difficult to justify even to oneself and slowly one has to learn to harness their intelligence to go beyond those standard lines to continue discussing topics.
So, there's no reason to either get frustrated with them and start calling them names or calling other people who like to take the time and engage them names. At the end of the day, Hassan represents a good segment of IR supporters and if anyone likes to continue to talk about democracy for Iran and Iranians, I suggest they learn how to engage this group and come to an understanding that democracy involves engaging and educating all groups within a society, not ignoring or eliminating the people that don't agree with us. I personally can't, in good conscience talk about and promote democracy for Iran and Iranians if I can't even practice it in such a small scale.
Of course it's not okay bro to "kill as many people as it takes " to do anything! It's not okay to kill people (civilians) period - for any reason and by anyone. Having said that, loss of civilian life has been justified (not okay, but a last resort) to save the lives of many more. Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima is almost a perfect example of this. It was not okay, but it was most likely the necessary evil to end the war (at least some have argued). Even during WWII, from what I've learnt the American policy was to minimize the loss of civilian life and they strongly objected to UK's request for blanket bombing of German cities. Fast forward 70 years and civilian lives for most parts have even more value attached to them now than they did in the mid 20th century.
Now, that's in attacking an external enemy, in other words, even if any civilians are killed, they're not your own, which makes your question even easier to answer for an internal situation. The reason being that in an internal conflict, you can NOT "maintain order" by wreaking disorder and there's no such thing as prosperity in a nation where the most basic right of citizens, the right to live, is being trampled on by the government. Nothing that would condone the killing of civilians can be considered, even by the biggest stretch of imagination, as a "vision".
The first question is really tough to answer Masoud jaan, but IMHO once the numbers get into the 4 digits, it is already beginning to be a losing battle for the state and the battle is pretty much lost at the 5 digit mark. The answer to the 2nd question in lieu of that first answer is much easier - Sharia law in Syria has been pretty much guaranteed since the civilian loss of life hit 10,000. Assad had the option to negotiate when the casualties was in the low 1000's - not an ideal situation, but it would have been doable. He still had the option to step down and allow a transitional government with his Baath party to negotiate when we were in the high 1000's. Since then, this has been a losing battle and unless there's some sort of negotiated end to this very quickly where a portion of the Baath party can secure a role in a new government and work with secularist opposition elements to balance the Islamist influence, Syria will most definitely be ruled by Sharia law for the foreseeable future.
Now, that's in attacking an external enemy, in other words, even if any civilians are killed, they're not your own, which makes your question even easier to answer for an internal situation. The reason being that in an internal conflict, you can NOT "maintain order" by wreaking disorder and there's no such thing as prosperity in a nation where the most basic right of citizens, the right to live, is being trampled on by the government. Nothing that would condone the killing of civilians can be considered, even by the biggest stretch of imagination, as a "vision".
The first question is really tough to answer Masoud jaan, but IMHO once the numbers get into the 4 digits, it is already beginning to be a losing battle for the state and the battle is pretty much lost at the 5 digit mark. The answer to the 2nd question in lieu of that first answer is much easier - Sharia law in Syria has been pretty much guaranteed since the civilian loss of life hit 10,000. Assad had the option to negotiate when the casualties was in the low 1000's - not an ideal situation, but it would have been doable. He still had the option to step down and allow a transitional government with his Baath party to negotiate when we were in the high 1000's. Since then, this has been a losing battle and unless there's some sort of negotiated end to this very quickly where a portion of the Baath party can secure a role in a new government and work with secularist opposition elements to balance the Islamist influence, Syria will most definitely be ruled by Sharia law for the foreseeable future.
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^^^ That's a Chinese FN-6. How the hell did they get their hands on those? Syria was not an official operator of those (which means they didn't take them from arms depots they raides), neither are any Arab countries and it would be odd if the Chinese sold it to the rebels or their supporters since they're supposedly on Assad's site. That leaves Sudan as the only possible source for those! I just did a quick search and apparently they've been turning up everywhere in Syria since early February!!!
Arab League agrees to arm Syria rebels
The Daily Star
March 07, 2013
BEIRUT: Arab League ministers decided Wednesday to let member nations arm Syrian rebels fighting President Bashar Assad, and invited an opposition coalition to take the League seat formerly occupied by Damascus. The Arab League’s decision came as Syrian rebels abducted more than 20 U.N. peacekeepers in the Golan Heights cease-fire zone. Previously the League had stressed that the Syrian political opposition and rebels should be supported by humanitarian and diplomatic means during the civil war, which has cost an estimated 70,000 lives.
However, a final statement issued at the end of a ministerial meeting in Cairo said they had “stressed the right of each state according to its wishes to offer all types of self-defense, including military, to support the resilience of the Syrian people and the Free [Syrian] Army.” Qatar has led a push against Damascus at the League, but Wednesday’s decision was not unanimous. Lebanon, Iraq and Algeria refused to endorse the final statement’s sections on Syria. Arab League Secretary-General Nabil Elaraby told a news conference that the ministers had invited the opposition Syrian National Coalition – an umbrella body of anti-Assad political and rebel groups – to occupy the Syrian seat at the League held by Damascus until it was suspended from the organization two years ago.
Walid al-Bunni, spokesman for the opposition coalition, welcomed the Arab decision as “better late than never” and said the organization now wanted U.N. representation. On the ground, a group of armed fighters linked to the Syrian opposition detained more than 20 U.N. peacekeepers in the increasingly volatile zone separating Israeli and Syrian troops on the Golan Heights. The U.N. Security Council demanded their immediate and unconditional release. The capture of the peacekeepers marked a new escalation in the spillover of Syria’s civil war. It followed the Feb. 25 announcement that a member of the peacekeeping force, known as UNDOF, was missing. Russia’s U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, the current Security Council president, said talks were under way between U.N. officials from the peacekeeping force and the captors.
U.N. peacekeeping chief Herve Ladsous, who briefed the council behind closed doors, identified the captors as being from a group associated with the Syrian opposition, Churkin said. “There was no fighting, according to his briefing to us,” he added. “My understanding is they took over the trucks in which the UNDOF personnel [were] moving around.” U.N. deputy spokesman Eduardo del Buey said about 20 U.N. observers had been on a regular supply mission when they were stopped by approximately 30 armed fighters near an observation post that was damaged in heavy combat last weekend and had been evacuated. A video posted online by activists showed a group of armed rebels standing around at least three white U.N. vehicles with the words UNDOF on them, allegedly in the village of Jamlah bordering Israel in Deraa province. The video, circulated by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said the peacekeepers held by the rebels were 20 Filipinos. It accused the peacekeepers of assisting the Syrian regime to redeploy in an area near the Golan that the fighters had seized a few days ago in battles that left 11 fighters and 19 regime troops dead.
A man identified as Abu Qaed al-Faleh, spokesman for the Martyrs of Yarmouk Brigades, announced the group was holding the peacekeepers until Assad’s forces withdrew from Jamlah. Elsewhere, rebels completed their capture of Raqqa, the first major city to fall completely into rebel hands, activists said. “Raqqa city is now out of the army’s control, after military intelligence troops surrendered to rebels following fierce clashes that raged for two days,” the Observatory told AFP. “It is the first provincial capital out of regime control.” Earlier, an air raid on Raqqa killed and wounded dozens of people, the Observatory said. Warplanes also bombarded Homs in central Syria, on the fourth day of a major offensive in the country’s third-largest city.
Near Damascus, the air force bombarded several rebel enclaves, said the Observatory which relies on a vast network of activists and medics on the ground. In Belgium, the top rebel commander renewed an appeal to the international community to send weapons to the opposition. Gen. Salim Idriss, head of the rebels’ Supreme Military Council, asked for anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles to protect Syrian civilians from Assad’s warplanes. “The people don’t understand why the international community just looks at the news on their TVs,” he said. “They just speak in the media and say, ‘That is not good and the regime must stop and must go, Bashar must go.’ And they don’t act.”
But Britain seemed to be stepping up its support. British Foreign Secretary William Hague said his country would provide armored vehicles, body armor and search-and-rescue equipment to the opposition. But he said Britain was sticking to the EU’s sanctions against Syria, which include an arms embargo.
The Daily Star
March 07, 2013
BEIRUT: Arab League ministers decided Wednesday to let member nations arm Syrian rebels fighting President Bashar Assad, and invited an opposition coalition to take the League seat formerly occupied by Damascus. The Arab League’s decision came as Syrian rebels abducted more than 20 U.N. peacekeepers in the Golan Heights cease-fire zone. Previously the League had stressed that the Syrian political opposition and rebels should be supported by humanitarian and diplomatic means during the civil war, which has cost an estimated 70,000 lives.
However, a final statement issued at the end of a ministerial meeting in Cairo said they had “stressed the right of each state according to its wishes to offer all types of self-defense, including military, to support the resilience of the Syrian people and the Free [Syrian] Army.” Qatar has led a push against Damascus at the League, but Wednesday’s decision was not unanimous. Lebanon, Iraq and Algeria refused to endorse the final statement’s sections on Syria. Arab League Secretary-General Nabil Elaraby told a news conference that the ministers had invited the opposition Syrian National Coalition – an umbrella body of anti-Assad political and rebel groups – to occupy the Syrian seat at the League held by Damascus until it was suspended from the organization two years ago.
Walid al-Bunni, spokesman for the opposition coalition, welcomed the Arab decision as “better late than never” and said the organization now wanted U.N. representation. On the ground, a group of armed fighters linked to the Syrian opposition detained more than 20 U.N. peacekeepers in the increasingly volatile zone separating Israeli and Syrian troops on the Golan Heights. The U.N. Security Council demanded their immediate and unconditional release. The capture of the peacekeepers marked a new escalation in the spillover of Syria’s civil war. It followed the Feb. 25 announcement that a member of the peacekeeping force, known as UNDOF, was missing. Russia’s U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, the current Security Council president, said talks were under way between U.N. officials from the peacekeeping force and the captors.
U.N. peacekeeping chief Herve Ladsous, who briefed the council behind closed doors, identified the captors as being from a group associated with the Syrian opposition, Churkin said. “There was no fighting, according to his briefing to us,” he added. “My understanding is they took over the trucks in which the UNDOF personnel [were] moving around.” U.N. deputy spokesman Eduardo del Buey said about 20 U.N. observers had been on a regular supply mission when they were stopped by approximately 30 armed fighters near an observation post that was damaged in heavy combat last weekend and had been evacuated. A video posted online by activists showed a group of armed rebels standing around at least three white U.N. vehicles with the words UNDOF on them, allegedly in the village of Jamlah bordering Israel in Deraa province. The video, circulated by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said the peacekeepers held by the rebels were 20 Filipinos. It accused the peacekeepers of assisting the Syrian regime to redeploy in an area near the Golan that the fighters had seized a few days ago in battles that left 11 fighters and 19 regime troops dead.
A man identified as Abu Qaed al-Faleh, spokesman for the Martyrs of Yarmouk Brigades, announced the group was holding the peacekeepers until Assad’s forces withdrew from Jamlah. Elsewhere, rebels completed their capture of Raqqa, the first major city to fall completely into rebel hands, activists said. “Raqqa city is now out of the army’s control, after military intelligence troops surrendered to rebels following fierce clashes that raged for two days,” the Observatory told AFP. “It is the first provincial capital out of regime control.” Earlier, an air raid on Raqqa killed and wounded dozens of people, the Observatory said. Warplanes also bombarded Homs in central Syria, on the fourth day of a major offensive in the country’s third-largest city.
Near Damascus, the air force bombarded several rebel enclaves, said the Observatory which relies on a vast network of activists and medics on the ground. In Belgium, the top rebel commander renewed an appeal to the international community to send weapons to the opposition. Gen. Salim Idriss, head of the rebels’ Supreme Military Council, asked for anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles to protect Syrian civilians from Assad’s warplanes. “The people don’t understand why the international community just looks at the news on their TVs,” he said. “They just speak in the media and say, ‘That is not good and the regime must stop and must go, Bashar must go.’ And they don’t act.”
But Britain seemed to be stepping up its support. British Foreign Secretary William Hague said his country would provide armored vehicles, body armor and search-and-rescue equipment to the opposition. But he said Britain was sticking to the EU’s sanctions against Syria, which include an arms embargo.
There is also this link. They are sourcing Turkey! What is particularly effective is their deterrence. They don't have to have a lot of them but they simply raise the risk that they might be down there.
http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/03/chinese-manpads-in-syria-does-2-2-fn-6.html
http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/03/chinese-manpads-in-syria-does-2-2-fn-6.html
The problem is that Turkey's not an official operator of those either, which means they had to buy them either from China or someone who had previously purchased them. According to Wiki, the official operators are only, China, Malaysia, Cambodia, Sudan, Pakistan, and Peru. Could Sunni Pakistan be helping the rebels, because this would have serious repercussions for Iran and the Sunni separatist movement in the S. East, particularly with the recent announcement of dropping Baluchestan from the name of the split province!
By the looks of it, he really does. Just as the rebels took Raqqa a few days ago, he said that the Syria is "victorious" and "the conspiracy against Syria is nearing its end!!! I was pretty shocked actually how delusional this guy really is. This is a good article for that:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130305/assad-says-syria-victorious-rebels-overrun-town
By the looks of it, he really does. Just as the rebels took Raqqa a few days ago, he said that the Syria is "victorious" and "the conspiracy against Syria is nearing its end!!! I was pretty shocked actually how delusional this guy really is. This is a good article for that:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130305/assad-says-syria-victorious-rebels-overrun-town
جناب
الان دوسال است که برای سقوط بشار وقت تعیین میکنند
فکر کنم به خاطر داشته باشید که در ماهای اول اردوگان امد و گفت سقوط بشار در چند هفته اینده حتمی است
توی همین سایت هم ترید زدید که بشار تا چند ساعت دیگر مثل قذافی کشته خواهد شد
انوقتی که مهاجمان با چهل هزار نفر به دمشق حمله کردند و به قول خودشان اخرین نبرد بود
بعد نوبت به حلب رسید که باز رسانه ها جوری وانمود کردند که حلب شد بنغازی و خلاص کار بشار تموم شده
بعد کشته شدند وزیر دفاع و وزیر کشور و ژنرالهای اسد در یک بمب گذاری که رسانه ها گفتند اسد فرار کرد
بعد نوبت رسید به التیماتوم امریکا در مورد بمب شیمیایی و دخالت می کنیم نمی دانم چه
بعد از این همه شما فکر میکنید چه کسانی از واقعیت بدور و متوهم هستند ؟
بشار اسد که بعد از دوسال هنوز سر کار است
یا انهایی دو سه بار وزیر و سفیر و کابیه و دولت در قطر و ترکیه و فرانسه تعیین کردند و حتی همین سفرا و وزرا و ژنرالها در بسیاری از مواقع رابطه ای با افراد مسلحی که بر علیه بشار می جنگند ندارند
مثال ان گروگان گیری اخیر سربازان فلیپینی سازمان ملل که نه جیش حر می دانم کی گرفته نه وزرا و سفرای تعیین شده در قطر و استامبول و پاریس
الان دوسال است که برای سقوط بشار وقت تعیین میکنند
فکر کنم به خاطر داشته باشید که در ماهای اول اردوگان امد و گفت سقوط بشار در چند هفته اینده حتمی است
توی همین سایت هم ترید زدید که بشار تا چند ساعت دیگر مثل قذافی کشته خواهد شد
انوقتی که مهاجمان با چهل هزار نفر به دمشق حمله کردند و به قول خودشان اخرین نبرد بود
بعد نوبت به حلب رسید که باز رسانه ها جوری وانمود کردند که حلب شد بنغازی و خلاص کار بشار تموم شده
بعد کشته شدند وزیر دفاع و وزیر کشور و ژنرالهای اسد در یک بمب گذاری که رسانه ها گفتند اسد فرار کرد
بعد نوبت رسید به التیماتوم امریکا در مورد بمب شیمیایی و دخالت می کنیم نمی دانم چه
بعد از این همه شما فکر میکنید چه کسانی از واقعیت بدور و متوهم هستند ؟
بشار اسد که بعد از دوسال هنوز سر کار است
یا انهایی دو سه بار وزیر و سفیر و کابیه و دولت در قطر و ترکیه و فرانسه تعیین کردند و حتی همین سفرا و وزرا و ژنرالها در بسیاری از مواقع رابطه ای با افراد مسلحی که بر علیه بشار می جنگند ندارند
مثال ان گروگان گیری اخیر سربازان فلیپینی سازمان ملل که نه جیش حر می دانم کی گرفته نه وزرا و سفرای تعیین شده در قطر و استامبول و پاریس