Is there a difference between men and women?

[ashtar]

ashtar : please take your pre-historic ideas to another forum, this is 21st century buddy.

I posted two articles (under "rooz e zan") one backed up by a recent scientific paper published in January 2005 in journal NeuroImage which suggest and try to explain observed differences between two sexes.

I find it amusing and ironic that I'm being called pre-historic and reminded of what century it is for posting a scientific study that was published just recently, in 2005. LOL

Just curious, how many people think that there is a GENERAL difference between how men think and what they focus on compared to women. And if people think that in GENERAL men may be better in doing some things compared to women while women may be better in doing somethings than men.

 

[hasan_agha]

Is there a difference between men and women?

based on the posts I've seen by you i assume you know men have a willie and women have a pishi. don't confuse pishi with khamenei.

 

[nazanin]

ofcourse there is men are physically more stronger while women are more emotional and conservative. but the inteligent level is the same in both sexes the reason men brain is more developed is because in most part of the world people like you live that think education for women is not good and all women is good for is cooking and delivering your babies

 

[shahinc]

I don't think there is any difference between todays men and women. When it comes to work, life, relationships and ..... They both think the sameway and act the sameway.

 

[ashtar]

I don't think there is any difference between todays men and women. When it comes to work, life, relationships and ..... They both think the sameway and act the sameway.

may i sugget you read this short article:

"Intelligence in men and women is a gray and white matter"

 

[shahinc]

may i sugget you read this short article:

"Intelligence in men and women is a gray and white matter"

[font=arial, geneva, san-serif][size=-1]"These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior,"

Thanks for the link. I scan through it quickly, the study shows that they use different part of their brains but the " end result" is the same. This is what I ment.
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[mowj]

A survey more appropriate for 'Feyziyeh' school of thought to justify their misogynic belief.
Ther is absolutely no difference between men and women as equal human being. Even if physical strength was true, it is not an issue in the era of machinaries.

But Akhunds believe women have a smaller chest cavity, smaller brain, very immotional due to menstruation means they can't be judges, (Rafsanjani in a Friday prayer). or what ever else no matter how stupid to give Akhunds an excuse to discriminate against women. At least in Iran women have proved to be smarter when it comes to University entrance exam.
I did not vote.

Clergy, specially "Hojattieh" type picked up by IRGC and Basij have been the achilee hill of Iran's prosperity and progress.

 

[Niloufar]

ofcourse there is men are physically more stronger while women are more emotional and conservative. but the inteligent level is the same in both sexes the reason men brain is more developed is because in most part of the world people like you live that think education for women is not good and all women is good for is cooking and delivering your babies

Well said Nazanin!
the way men prioritize thinking/decision making can be different from women but intelligent level is the same.they r only physically different.

Ppl who believe men and women are different, are the same ppl who believe women are 'zaefeh',should not sit beside men in the bus, should not watch a football match in the stadium like men, should get 1/2 of men in the will, cannot divorce men unless men beat them up, should get married at the age of 9 and more to come..

 

[ashtar]

A survey more appropriate for 'Feyziyeh' school of thought to justify their misogynic belief.
Ther is absolutely no difference between men and women as equal human being. Even if physical strength was true, it is not an issue in the era of machinaries.

But Akhunds believe women have a smaller chest cavity, smaller brain, very immotional due to menstruation means they can't be judges, (Rafsanjani in a Friday prayer). or what ever else no matter how stupid to give Akhunds an excuse to discriminate against women. At least in Iran women have proved to be smarter when it comes to University entrance exam.
I did not vote.

Clergy, specially "Hojattieh" type picked up by IRGC and Basij have been the achilee hill of Iran's prosperity and progress.

The stuy I posted and the two articles were written by non-muslim, non-Iranian authors.

The topic is not meant to be hostile but rather informative and civilized.

btw, it's interesting that in the same quote that you accuse the Akhunds of trying to hold back the women in Iran you mention that women are allowed to prove themselves in the University scene.

 

[Pahlevoon Nayeb]

There are indeed differences between men and women – and THANK GOD for that! Without those differences, I would probably not have the will to go on living – in a world only full of men!!

But, on a more serious note, other than the obvious differences that make women attractive to men and vice versa, it is really irrelevant if women have more White Matter and men more of the khalkhal pashmi variety. In all aspects of life, as it pertains to tasks laid before them, and as it has anything to do with social, scientific, and political roles, I say let each person show what she or he is worth on THEIR OWN merit!

Of what value can there be a study that ATTEMPTS to pre-define and classify men and women based on the color and position of their brain matters?! Does more gray matter PROVE beyond the shadow of a doubt a particular behavior as opposed to that of color white? Or, if the purple matter is placed in the front of the brain, does that make anyone better or worse than if that same color matter happens to be placed sideways? Aren’t the conclusions of these studies (if they are indeed meant to have conclusions drawn from them), AT BEST, useful in drawing LIKELIHOOD of something as opposed to proof of that thing? For example, how do we know that gray matter placed in the front of the head, among other things, is not a sign of, say, predisposition to stupidity or heart attack or a closer relationship to monkeys?!

Such studies are useful only in the larger context of learning about human anatomy, MINUS the social conclusions of the kind Hitler tried to draw in order to distinguish the Jews from the Arians or the of the kind Southern Whites attempted to use to prove their superiority over the darker races.

Having said all this, I do not believe TRUE Islam gives more value to men than women. The Sureh in question (Assna, I belive it is called) has been misused for centuries by treasonous Mullah Shipishou to justify their very existence as well as to enjoy the sexual pleasure of having more than one wife. The odious practice of Sigheh is a fine example of this hypocritical and moronic behavior.

IMHB, (In My Humble BELIEF), it takes a lot more introspective and truly spiritual human beings than the Neanderthals ruling Iran to understand what the Surehs in Quran truly mean…

Just my 2 ½ cents.

 

[mowj]

Ashtar, the comment was not meant to be offensive or hostile, only an observation so my apology if it offended you. The only time I have seen the issue of differences between men and women raised and without any exception specially regarding Iran , it has been to justify the misogynic behavior and belief of a backward perception of Islam regarding women.
On the conflict, IMHO, there is a limit to how much pressure a minority can insert before it explode in their faces. However, let's not forget how the 7th Majlis under variety of excuses trys to set a limit to girls attending university, it is a hard sale to people but God knows they try.
Again, despite obvious physiological differences, there is absolutely no diffreneces between men and women as human being and their abilities, specially in modern societies.

 

[arashinho]

ashtar,

that first article you posted was as misinformed as they come. the second was a result of the study whose conclusions did not distinguish between intelligence in men and women. the worst part of these generalizations is that when they are used in policymaking.

in general men are stronger than women, but there are women that are stronger than many men. should they be prevented from construction work or fighting in a war?

even if the original basis of the islamic laws were based on what was prevalent in society at the time, those ideas are outdated and prehistoric now.

 

[ashtar]

To say that men and women are different is not automatically to say that one is better than the other, or that one should have more opportunity than the other. For example, to say that Chinese people are different from Ethiopians is not to say that one is better than the other or that one should be prevented from going to school, etc.

Second, it is human nature to try to explain observed differences or certain patterns or clusters. One observed pattern is that throughout history the majority (NOT ALL) of inventions and new religions and ideologies have been made by men. Assuming that in general men are physically stronger than women which may have been partly responsible for forcing women to stay inside while men went out to hunt, then one can’t help but wonder why more women did not become philosophers, inventors, prophets. Instead generally it has been men who stayed inside who are the one’s who meditated and pondered and came up with new religions, discoveries, formulas, and inventions (regardless of their educational background or schooling opportunities).

To try to answer the above is not to try to put down one sex over the other but merely to try to understand nature and our surroundings. Surely there are exceptions to every rule and one should try to avoid setting policies based on generalizations. But at the same time modern science is advanced based on generalizations. To say that men in general are better in math does not mean that all men are better in math nor that no woman can be better than men in math. It merely acknowledges certain observation. To try to avoid the truth for mere sake of political correctness is the first step to suppressing science, progress, and free thinking.

 

[ashtar]

Do you agree that some humans are more intelligent than other humans are when it comes to certain tasks?

If your answer is yes to the above question, then do you agree that that observed difference is most likely due to how their brains tend to work and process certain information?

If your answer is yes to the above question, then if you were presented with two brains that clearly worked and processed information in different ways wouldn’t you reasonably conclude that one brain would probably process certain information more readily and different than the other brain and vise versa?

If your answer is yes to the above question, then given the fact that there is observed difference between how majority of male brains work compared to females (again in general) wouldn’t you reasonably conclude that IN GENERAL men’s brain would probably process certain information more readily and different than the women’s brain and vise versa?

If your answer is no to any of the above questions can you please explain why?

 

[Pahlevoon Nayeb]

To say that men and women are different is not automatically to say that one is better than the other, or that one should have more opportunity than the other. For example, to say that Chinese people are different from Ethiopians is not to say that one is better than the other or that one should be prevented from going to school, etc.

Agreed.

Second, it is human nature to try to explain observed differences or certain patterns or clusters. One observed pattern is that throughout history the majority (NOT ALL) of inventions and new religions and ideologies have been made by men. Assuming that in general men are physically stronger than women which may have been partly responsible for forcing women to stay inside while men went out to hunt, then one can’t help but wonder why more women did not become philosophers, inventors, prophets. Instead generally it has been men who stayed inside who are the one’s who meditated and pondered and came up with new religions, discoveries, formulas, and inventions (regardless of their educational background or schooling opportunities).

ashtar jon, we can ponder all we want, the truth of the matter is that women have been supressed throughout the ages for being more beautiful then the men and for merely being different!

To try to answer the above is not to try to put down one sex over the other but merely to try to understand nature and our surroundings. Surely there are exceptions to every rule and one should try to avoid setting policies based on generalizations. But at the same time modern science is advanced based on generalizations. To say that men in general are better in math does not mean that all men are better in math nor that no woman can be better than men in math. It merely acknowledges certain observation. To try to avoid the truth for mere sake of political correctness is the first step to suppressing science, progress, and free thinking.

Again, we can make all the OBSERVATION we want, the CONCULSION we draw from it is what makes an experiment subjective.

Just because there have been more men inventors than women, may indeed be because of how the brains work OR it may be that women have been suppressed through the ages. We simply don't know.

But, to quote a scientific and PHYSIOLOGICAL study to arrive at a SOCIOLOGICAL conclusion would be tantamount to observing the way an animal (human or otherwise) chews food and then decide whether that animal is, say, a horse! Similarities, conjecture, implications are just those.

In fact, I would propose to you that drawing conclusions based on a physiological study in order to arrive at a result of convenience is not only NOT scientific, it is the very essence of prejudice and closed mindedness. This is exactly the type of studies racially biased "scientists" were using to promote euthanasia around the turn of 20th century!


Here’s a non-scientific statistic for you. During my young niece’s recent high school graduation ceremony the school produced 9 valedictorian, of which 8 were girls and, of those, all of Far East Asian descent. Can we then conclude that:

1- Girls are smarter than boys?

2- Far East Asians are smarter than other races?

 

[ashtar]

ashtar jon, we can ponder all we want, the truth of the matter is that women have been supressed throughout the ages for being more beautiful then the men and for merely being different!

I'm not even sure what that means. I'm sure in the eyes of women the men were more beautiful and in some cultures young men viewd equally as beautiful as young women. What beauty has to do with being supressed I'm not sure.

Here’s a non-scientific statistic for you. During my young niece’s recent high school graduation ceremony the school produced 9 valedictorian, of which 8 were girls and, of those, all of Far East Asian descent. Can we then conclude that:

1- Girls are smarter than boys?

2- Far East Asians are smarter than other races?

No. but assuming that in that school there were roughly same number of boys as were girls and that boys and girls were randomly from different families (i.e. boys were not exclusively bused from the ghetto neighborhood while most girls were from educated families) we can reasonably conclude that in that cluster (i.e., your niece's school) in general the girls were more focused and better students than their counterpart boys.

I'm hesitant to say "smarter" because I don't think memorizing things and regurgitating them in a standardized test necessarily means that one is smart. more knowledgeable about certain things may be but not necessarily smarter.

By the same token if you extended those statistics to all the schools in the US or all the schools in the world then one could reasonably make similar conclusions about those findings.

 

[Pahlevoon Nayeb]

I'm not even sure what that means. I'm sure in the eyes of women the men were more beautiful and in some cultures young men viewd equally as beautiful as young women. What beauty has to do with being supressed I'm not sure.

Being different has EVERYTHING to do with being marginalized and singled out. And, yes, perhaps men were beautiful to women, but the fact of the matter is that men have pretty much always held the power, through the use of physical power and, if that did not suffice, through mumbo-jumbo of religion and philosophy.

No. but assuming that in that school there were roughly same number of boys as were girls and that boys and girls were randomly from different families (i.e. boys were not exclusively bused from the ghetto neighborhood while most girls were from educated families) we can reasonably conclude that in that cluster (i.e., your niece's school) in general the girls were more focused and better students than their counterpart boys.

I'm hesitant to say "smarter" because I don't think memorizing things and regurgitating them in a standardized test necessarily means that one is smart. more knowledgeable about certain things may be but not necessarily smarter.

Well, my man, if you have paid attention to the criteria used to determine a school's valedictorians, it goes WAY beyond "memorizing things and regurgitating them." To be a Validicorian, a student must show leadership in EXTRACURICULAR activities and subjects, those not covered by the simple memorization and regurgitation. Call it smart, innovative, call it natural leadership; this is the stuff excellence is made of...

 

[ashtar]

Being different has EVERYTHING to do with being marginalized and singled out. And, yes, perhaps men were beautiful to women, but the fact of the matter is that men have pretty much always held the power, through the use of physical power and, if that did not suffice, through mumbo-jumbo of religion and philosophy.

again, it was men who came up with the mumbo-jumbo of religion to justify their power whereas one would expect that women would use their brains to solve the problem of their phsycial inferiority by either inventing new devices or religions. Yet we see that for thousands of years women remained suppressed untill some men came along and modified some of the religions (like saying that god values the life of men and women equally and men shouldn't kill their daughters etc) and later with women's rights and such. You draw your own conclusions but throughout history whenever stronger men have suppressed weaker men the weaker men have at least tried to come up with innovative ways and ideas to beat the physically stronger opponent as opposed to merely taking it.

Well, my man, if you have paid attention to the criteria used to determine a school's valedictorians, it goes WAY beyond "memorizing things and regurgitating them." To be a Validicorian, a student must show leadership in EXTRACURICULAR activities and subjects, those not covered by the simple memorization and regurgitation. Call it smart, innovative, call it natural leadership; this is the stuff excellence is made of...

Then fine, if they do more than mere memorization then call them smarter. I don't mind. But it doesn't change the main point I was making.

 

[nazanin]

you so confused what is it that you want to prove?
men are smarter? or men are stronger?
one point how come in comparing boys to girls the first thing you ask is if they come from the same area "boys were not exclusively bused from the ghetto neighborhood while most girls were from educated families" but you never ask if men and women all around the world have the same opportunity to study and go to school? do you know what happens to a woman if she drives in the place you call "ghebleh" ? yes my friend in you beloved religion women can not even drive they have to be married by 15 now tell me if your sister is married and 15 and at 18 she has 2 kids do you think that gives her enough time to study / develope her skills?
last question where do you live? i do not think you are in Iran may i ask why? all your post is about how IR is and how good the government is may i ask what you doing outside of iran?

 

[nazanin]

i forgot to mention your poll is extremly funny

ofcourse there is a difference on how men and women perform
ofcourse there is a difference on how they think

but the inteligent level is not related to your sex it relates to many things but has got nothing to do with your sex