Ozil retires from International football and targets the head of GFF

Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#81
What you describe above is a distinction of citizens purely based on race. Unlike you, I do see a shame in insisting to make such racial distinctions of a countries citizens, especially those who are born and raised there.

Maybe one way to make the "others" feel more roted (or just as roted as those so called "Bavarians") and strenghten the nations sense of unity would be to stop making these sorts of racial distinctions.
So they make him German, he makes millions and his family never has to worry about money again, make him a star enabling him to go to the biggest club in the world where he makes more millions, select him for the national team where he wins the highest honour in football...and they aren't making him feel more rooted? Ozil owes a lot to Germany.

This whole situation has little to do with racism and Ozil throwing that card out is despicable. You can call it political - nationalistic, perhaps - but it is not racist. There are a lot of people around the world, including inside Germany, who do not like Erdogan and see him as despicable. They didn't want their countryman to legitimise him.
 
Last edited:

byebyenow

Elite Member
Jun 3, 2006
4,962
175
#82
The legitimacy of Erdogan is when Turkey is still receiving aids and arms from EU and puting the blind eye on dicrimination measures on Kurds. They legitimate him much more than just a footballer taking pic with the leader who actually is not as bad compared to others in the region.
The fact that Ozil is still has to receive an integration award as being a German based on his non-european roots is prejudice and even racist. Germany is a very good country but denying racism exist there is also very naive, it exist everywhere but political leaders carry more responsibilities and are expected to do the right thing rather than attacking a footballer for their own political interests that is fueling into right wing, nationalist ideologies that elected Trump and put Hitler into power several decades ago. I mean why the failure of Germany has to be blamed at one player who has to be a Turk, just like every time Italy lost, it was Balotelli fault rather than questioning the whole team and management. The media and some other scumbags are just fishing and using these elements for their own interests. Just like someone said earlier there would have been no fuss about a Jewish background taking pic with Netanyahu because it doesn't serve their political interests even if mocking Jews could still be popular among some right wings.
 

Azhidahak

Bench Warmer
May 30, 2005
1,707
67
#83
So they make him German
How exactly did they make him German? In a lab? By accepting him as a refugee? How exactly? I really dont understand how you reasonate that they MADE him German.

select him for the national team where he wins the highest honour in football.
They select him because he was amongst the best players, not in order to be "nice" to him. Its not a charity.

where he wins the highest honour in football.
Not only for himself but also for his country Germany, that should be very thankful for his efforts just like we are very thankful of our players in TM for their achievements

Ozil owes a lot to Germany.
Germany owes a lot to Ozil
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#84
How exactly did they make him German? In a lab? By accepting him as a refugee? How exactly? I really dont understand how you reasonate that they MADE him German.
By allowing him (his family) into their country, giving him citizenship and teaching him German culture. They are open about assimilation so the cries of racism is nonsensical.

They select him because he was amongst the best players, not in order to be "nice" to him. Its not a charity.
And without being German no one would have ever heard of him. If they were racist, they wouldn't have picked him.

Not only for himself but also for his country Germany, that should be very thankful for his efforts just like we are very thankful of our players in TM for their achievements
And they were, but football is not everything in life. People will interpret his actions as a lack of integrity. It isn't racism.

Germany owes a lot to Ozil
Ozil still owes more to Germany.
 

Azhidahak

Bench Warmer
May 30, 2005
1,707
67
#85
By allowing him (his family) into their country, giving him citizenship and teaching him German culture. They are open about assimilation so the cries of racism is nonsensical.



And without being German no one would have ever heard of him. If they were racist, they wouldn't have picked him.



And they were, but football is not everything in life. People will interpret his actions as a lack of integrity. It isn't racism.



Ozil still owes more to Germany.

Dude!! He was BORN AND RAISED in Germany! They did not MAKE him German anymore than they have made Thomas Muller German! What Özils grandparents have done or what Germany have done for them is nothing that Özil is obliged to thank for.

Only in a really fascist state would a citizen who has been born and raised there have to go around and be thankful for being considered a citizen and member of that state.

And in what strange way does Ozil owe more to Germany? Economically, he has paid so much to the state (taxes) that it would be crazy not think it has exceeded what he has recieved for it. Non-economically he has helped Germany achieve fame and pride (winning the world cup), he has helped more children and people in need than most other German citizens. How on fucking earth does he owe more to the state than vice versa?

Everything you say in your posts makes one think that Özil was a refugee that they took in, accepted, made him German, gave him allowance, helped him learn the culture and in the end found him a job. No, none of that is the case for Özil.
 
Last edited:

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#87
Dude!! He was BORN AND RAISED in Germany! They did not MAKE him German anymore than they have made Thomas Muller German! What Özils grandparents have done or what Germany have done for them is nothing that Özil is obliged to thank for.

Only in a really fascist state would a citizen who has been born and raised there have to go around and be thankful for being considered a citizen and member of that state.

And in what strange way does Ozil owe more to Germany? Economically, he has paid so much to the state (taxes) that it would be crazy not think it has exceeded what he has recieved for it. Non-economically he has helped Germany achieve fame and pride (winning the world cup), he has helped more children and people in need than most other German citizens. How on fucking earth does he owe more to the state than vice versa?

Everything you say in your posts makes one think that Özil was a refugee that they took in, accepted, made him German, gave him allowance, helped him learn the culture and in the end found him a job. No, none of that is the case for Özil.
LOLOLOLOLOL


Still no case for racism :)

You have to look at it from a legal standpoint. Would racial prejudice be a factor in a court of law if critisizing Ozil was a real crime in Germany? Absolutely not.

Ozil's feelings might have been hurt, but he ain't no victim of racism in this case.
Criticizing Özil what? There is no law that forbids criticizing a public person. You can sue for libel.

Ok, let's make it more simple: If Özil would lose sponsorship deals or contracts and his sponsors would say that he lost them because he posed for a photo with Erdogan, and if Özil went to court with good lawyers suing those sponsors because of breach of contract due to racism and not because of him posing with Erdogan and ruining their brands, there would be a rather high chance of him winning. Don't you think?
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#88
Dude!! He was BORN AND RAISED in Germany! They did not MAKE him German anymore than they have made Thomas Muller German! What Özils grandparents have done or what Germany have done for them is nothing that Özil is obliged to thank for.
That's your take and I consider it a pretty ungrateful one. There is no reason other than the goodwill of German people to accept immigrants that Ozil is in Germany. Whether he or his grandparents wanted to, without their consent it doesn't happen.

To then use the fact that they allowed people from all over the world into their country, promoted them to the highest echelons of their society and still be called racist is an insult.

Only in a really fascist state would a citizen who has been born and raised there have to go around and be thankful for being considered a citizen and member of that state.
Then all states are fascists because all of them want your allegiance and patriotism. You make it seem like they are whipping him in the streets for not walking around with a Germany flag tattooed on his face. He's still a millionaire doing far better than 99.999% of the world.

And in what strange way does Ozil owe more to Germany? Economically, he has paid so much to the state (taxes) that it would be crazy not think it has exceeded what he has recieved for it. Non-economically he has helped Germany achieve fame and pride (winning the world cup), he has helped more children and people in need than most other German citizens. How on fucking earth does he owe more to the state than vice versa?

Everything you say in your posts makes one think that Özil was a refugee that they took in, accepted, made him German, gave him allowance, helped him learn the culture and in the end found him a job. No, none of that is the case for Özil.
This is besides the point. The rest only follows because they allowed him and his family in their country in the first place. Now they are racists. Funny stuff.

Don't get me wrong you can be critical of the nationalist backlash but stop with the racism charges, it's absurd.
 
Likes: Bache Tehroon

Azhidahak

Bench Warmer
May 30, 2005
1,707
67
#89
That's your take and I consider it a pretty ungrateful one.
No, it is not my take, it is quite simply a fact. Name me one modern/civilized country in the entire world where one who is born and raised in that country doesnt simply become a member and citizen of that country! There is no process where that person has to go ask for citizenship and that nation grants it if they are in the mood to be nice. You are trying to turn this into a case of "your take vs my take" but the only difference of opinion here is that you can not look at Özil as an individual separat from his grandparents, born FREE in the state of Germany like any other German. Instead you believe he has to be thankful for something that has happend to his jad o abad.

Well, according to your logic most of the world should fucking ABHOR Germany because there is a pretty good chance someone from their jad o bad has suffered from Hitler and Nazi Germany. It is the same kind of absurd logic you are using in the case of Özil.
 
Likes: byebyenow
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#90
No, it is not my take, it is quite simply a fact. Name me one modern/civilized country in the entire world where one who is born and raised in that country doesnt simply become a member and citizen of that country! There is no process where that person has to go ask for citizenship and that nation grants it if they are in the mood to be nice. You are trying to turn this into a case of "your take vs my take" but the only difference of opinion here is that you can not look at Özil as an individual separat from his grandparents, born FREE in the state of Germany like any other German. Instead you believe he has to be thankful for something that has happend to his jad o abad.

Well, according to your logic most of the world should fucking ABHOR Germany because there is a pretty good chance someone from their jad o bad has suffered from Hitler and Nazi Germany. It is the same kind of absurd logic you are using in the case of Özil.
Birthright citizenship and permanent residency are laws that the host country enacts, it is something they voluntarily do. It just so happens the modern and civilised nations do so because they aren't racist...that's the point. Your take is just an opinion and not a very informed one frankly. You would do well with studying migration legislation. Japan, for example, severely restricts birthright citizenship.

Your second para is ridiculous: current Germany is not Nazi Germany. That this needs pointing out to you is telling.

I'll leave you with a tidbit: when Muhammad Ali returned from Africa they asked him about it and his reply was, "thank god my granddaddy got on that boat". Mind you, this is Ali, a civil rights activist who openly talked about segregation and promoted black causes. Even he recognised what it meant to grow up in a country like America.
 
Last edited:

Azhidahak

Bench Warmer
May 30, 2005
1,707
67
#91
Your second post is ridiculous: current Germany is not Nazi Germany. That this needs pointing out to you is telling.
The comparison was never between current Germany and Nazi Germany, you made that up. My comparison is your type of logic which says that one person has to be thankful for what the state has done towards not himself but his grandparents. Following that logic many people should disgust (opposite of being thankful) if that state has done something really bad towards their ancestors.

If you dont see how that is exactly the same kind of absurd logic in this case then there is just no way to even try having a rational discussion with you.
 
Last edited:
Oct 16, 2002
39,533
1,513
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#92
Ok, let's make it more simple: If Özil would lose sponsorship deals or contracts and his sponsors would say that he lost them because he posed for a photo with Erdogan, and if Özil went to court with good lawyers suing those sponsors because of breach of contract due to racism and not because of him posing with Erdogan and ruining their brands, there would be a rather high chance of him winning. Don't you think?
No. And I don't understand why you do either?! How could Ozil win such a case based on allegations of racism? What would be his evidence?

He could easily win that case alleging many other things, but racism would not be one of them.
 
Oct 16, 2002
39,533
1,513
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#93
No, it is not my take, it is quite simply a fact. Name me one modern/civilized country in the entire world where one who is born and raised in that country doesnt simply become a member and citizen of that country! There is no process where that person has to go ask for citizenship and that nation grants it if they are in the mood to be nice.
Citizenship by birth is only a right in a limited number of countries. I have no idea why you think it's a God-given right. There's even talks of it being conditional or even repelled in countries like USA and Canada thanks to severe abuse.

Well, according to your logic most of the world should fucking ABHOR Germany because there is a pretty good chance someone from their jad o bad has suffered from Hitler and Nazi Germany.
Again, why is this news or surprising to you? A lot of people in the world DO FUCKING ABHOR Germany because of that exact reason you mentioned. Is it wrong? Maybe in most situations, but certainly not a mystery.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#94
No. And I don't understand why you do either?! How could Ozil win such a case based on allegations of racism? What would be his evidence?

He could easily win that case alleging many other things, but racism would not be one of them.
I gave a terrible example based on a terrible example you gave because this is about terrible examples, also because Özil wrote about the way sponsors, case in point Mercedes, reacted by cutting him out of ads.

If Özil would be bored enough to cry for racism about Mercedes cutting him from the ad, if Özil was bored enough to fight for his right to be in the ad based on the fact that he has an agreement with Mercedes and he spent his time to be there for shooting, and if Özil would claim that the only reason he was cut off from the ad was because he is of Turkish origin, he could have a case. At least more than "suppose criticizing people was illegal in Germany. Could he run a case based on racism?"

Anyway, maybe you should tell us what racism is to you if the case of Özil is not racism. Maybe we all just have different definitions of racism.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#95
Citizenship by birth is only a right in a limited number of countries. I have no idea why you think it's a God-given right. There's even talks of it being conditional or even repelled in countries like USA and Canada thanks to severe abuse.

Again, why is this news or surprising to you? A lot of people in the world DO FUCKING ABHOR Germany because of that exact reason you mentioned. Is it wrong? Maybe in most situations, but certainly not a mystery.

Özil was born in Germany, went to school in Germany, learned football in Germany, speaks German with a distinctive German accent, paid taxes in Germany...he just happens to have business interests in Turkey, which is not forbidden.

If according to you, a person like Özil cannot be a full member of German society or be considered a German, then alright, we don't need to discuss this anymore.
 
Last edited:
Oct 16, 2002
39,533
1,513
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#96
Özil was born in Germany, went to school in Germany, learned football in Germany, speaks German with a distinctive German accent, paid taxes in Germany...he just happens to have business interests in Turkey, which is not forbidden.

If according to you, a person like Özil cannot be a full member of German society or be considered a German, then alright, we don't need to discuss this anymore.
The reason we're discussing this is because I do believe Ozil is a German and a full member of the German society. We're discussing why Ozil and a dude from Bavaria whose ancestors occupied the land long before Ozil's may feel different about Germany on specific topics, and how that difference in feeling is not racism.

This is no different than how you feel about Shiraz (or whatever city in Iran) compared to an Afghan man who was born and raised in Iran. There IS a difference. Are you or him racists as a result?

Maybe we all just have different definitions of racism.
Clearly. And I find yours very strange.
 

byebyenow

Elite Member
Jun 3, 2006
4,962
175
#98
The reason we're discussing this is because I do believe Ozil is a German and a full member of the German society. We're discussing why Ozil and a dude from Bavaria whose ancestors occupied the land long before Ozil's may feel different about Germany on specific topics, and how that difference in feeling is not racism.

This is no different than how you feel about Shiraz (or whatever city in Iran) compared to an Afghan man who was born and raised in Iran. There IS a difference. Are you or him racists as a result?


Clearly. And I find yours very strange.
No it doesn't make you racist, but if you blame the problems within Iran toward Afghans then this can be racist. So often in Germany the immigrants especially Turks were blamed for economical problems within Germany. The country might try to erase racism out of their history and society but this is never easy and racist element has always existed within the society and political scenes. BTW Turks, Albanians, Italians, Slavs from various countries were invited into Germany to rebuild the country after it was completely destroyed during the war, the benefits goes both ways as immigrants provided as much as the country of Germany for them. The second generation and third are no immigrants but are citizens and should be treated the same as the rest without any distinction if they are treated different then it is prejudice and even racist.
 
Last edited:
Oct 16, 2002
39,533
1,513
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#99
No it doesn't make you racist, but if you blame the problems within Iran toward Afghans then this can be racist. So often in Germany the immigrants especially Turks were blamed for economical problems within Germany. The country might try to erase racism out of their history and society but this is never easy and racist element has always existed within the society and political scenes. BTW Turks, Albanians, Italians, Slavs from various countries were invited into Germany to rebuild the country after it was completely destroyed during the war, the benefits goes both ways as immigrants provided as much as the country of Germany for them. The second generation and third are no immigrants but are citizens and should be treated the same as the rest without any distinction if they are treated different then it is prejudice and even racist.
Now you're talking, except your last 2 words are completely wrong again.

Blaming Turks and other immigrants for certain things is completely natural. Happens everywhere. It's much like Iranians blaming Afghans for lack of construction jobs. It's funny and maybe even true to some extent, but absolutely not racist.

Generally speaking people idolize the past and Turks are not a part of Germany's 'past' so they get blamed. Not because of their race, but because they're not a part of the land's past. Tribalism, nationalism, ignorance, whatever. Not racism.

Stop calling everything racist. This has become epidemic everywhere and only causes more discrimination and segregation. It legitimizes the victim mentality that has completely ruined the lives of many children of minority ethnics. It breeds morons, criminals and beggers.
 
Likes: Kaz

A8K

Elite Member
Oct 22, 2016
3,036
520
fuck.ir
while bigots can be racist some bigots are just that.. amazing how Turks being victims of racism are the topic of this discussion and not the turks perpetuators of armenian genocide. I guess Ozil is proud of that part of his roots too.