Ozil retires from International football and targets the head of GFF

Aug 26, 2005
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The comparison was never between current Germany and Nazi Germany, you made that up. My comparison is your type of logic which says that one person has to be thankful for what the state has done towards not himself but his grandparents. Following that logic many people should disgust (opposite of being thankful) if that state has done something really bad towards their ancestors.
You're not following any kind of logic. I'll break it down for you:

Without Germany allowing immigrants (ergo, not being racist): neither Ozil nor his family would be in Germany. As a consequence, he wouldn't be living the life he is now.

If you dont see how that is exactly the same kind of absurd logic in this case then there is just no way to even try having a rational discussion with you.
The irony.

Özil was born in Germany, went to school in Germany, learned football in Germany, speaks German with a distinctive German accent, paid taxes in Germany...he just happens to have business interests in Turkey, which is not forbidden.

If according to you, a person like Özil cannot be a full member of German society or be considered a German, then alright, we don't need to discuss this anymore.
He is a full member of Germany society - the objections against his meeting with Erdogan is political, it is not racist.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
The reason we're discussing this is because I do believe Ozil is a German and a full member of the German society. We're discussing why Ozil and a dude from Bavaria whose ancestors occupied the land long before Ozil's may feel different about Germany on specific topics, and how that difference in feeling is not racism.

This is no different than how you feel about Shiraz (or whatever city in Iran) compared to an Afghan man who was born and raised in Iran. There IS a difference. Are you or him racists as a result?
Clearly. And I find yours very strange.

I wasn't even born in Iran, I was born in Austria but we moved back to Tehran when I was 3 months old. The areas I could claim some locality are Vanak and Park-e Mellat. Do I consider an Afghan kid living there more of a local than myself or do I understand that an Afghan kid who has Park-e Mellat as his happy place more of a local than myself? Yeah sure. But that's me and I don't consider nation states as anything but an artificial man-made thing and a failure remaining from the 19th century, however and unfortunately for everyone, they are a matter of fact. I accept however that not everyone sees it like this. I would consider myself racist however, if I would consider an Afghan kid growing up there less of a local to that area than myself, who hasn't lived in Iran for the past 30 years.

In our part of the world, the borders and "nations" were made by some stupid English, Russian or French Mofo and that's one of the reasons the whole area is so fucked up. Nevertheless, it would be stupid not to defend your territory when under threat, as the "nation" has one useful function and that is to defend the territorial claim and security of its people. Otherwise everyone will be screwed over like Palestinians or Native Americans or Serbs in Croatia.

I consider a passport a piece of document. That document is in some cases more valuable than in others, otherwise it has no meaning. I would give every Afghan born in Iran, deciding to live in Iran, listening to Irooni music, supporting either of Esteghlal or Persepolis or whatever crap an Iranian passport and tell him " It's your country too! Make the best of it." because we would give honorary citizenship to every damn European who would do that. This whole "my father was born here!" thing is applicable when someone tries to take away something from you and you actually have to defend yourself (again, in the case of Palestinians or Serbs with Kosovo). Özil is not taking anything away from anyone. Same way, an Afghan working in construction is not taking anything away either, but it is capitalism and Neoliberalism taking away from the Iranian and the Afghan is made the scapegoat. Same way the Turk is made the scapegoat in Germany.

So yes, if a guy growing up in Gelsenkirchen where Özil grew up considers himself more of a local than Özil, although Özil is living there in his 3rd generation and that other guy is living there in his 3rd as well, because his parents probably moved there from either Poland, Russia, Czech Republic or something and are with a probability of 85% not local locals

(just a matter of probability. Gelsenkirchen tripled in inhabitants from 1945-1970 and went from 150K to around 450K and now is at around 250K so there is a high chance that a person living in Gelsenkirchen today moved there in the 60ies, at the same time as Özil's grandfather)


then yes, he is either an idiot or a racist, which is more or less the same thing. Same way, if a Bavarian would consider himself more Bavarian than a Turkish guy whose family is living there since 1958 he is also, very probably, a racist.

You are turning around the problem. Özil, a guy whose grandfather moved to Germany and helped build up the country after war, is not the problem. The guy who makes an exclusive emotional claim on a part of the world because his great great great grandfather also lived there and he and his family never had to move in 200 years, that guy is the problem and needs help.

No one remembers more than 2 generations back, except if they are truly bored and if someone feels a certain nostalgic attachment to a part of the world their great great great great ancestors come from, so be it, but it's not the problem of the guy who was born, raised and paid taxes in Germany. It's the other guys problem and he needs help that he can't accept someone else could claim a place home as well.

But anyway, why are you trying to defend or justify a completely retarded stance? What is the difference between someone praying to Allah and someone praying to a border?

Now you're talking, except your last 2 words are completely wrong again.

Blaming Turks and other immigrants for certain things is completely natural. Happens everywhere. It's much like Iranians blaming Afghans for lack of construction jobs. It's funny and maybe even true to some extent, but absolutely not racist.

Generally speaking people idolize the past and Turks are not a part of Germany's 'past' so they get blamed. Not because of their race, but because they're not a part of the land's past. Tribalism, nationalism, ignorance, whatever. Not racism.

Stop calling everything racist. This has become epidemic everywhere and only causes more discrimination and segregation. It legitimizes the victim mentality that has completely ruined the lives of many children of minority ethnics. It breeds morons, criminals and beggers.
Agha, what is Germany's "past"? Germany wasn't even a country until Bismarck came to power and united the country. They all spoke the same language more or less, but it was the Kingdom of Prussia, Bavaria etc. and they were far from united. After Bismarck, they had a period of failure, lost 2 World Wars, had terrible governments etc. and then since 1945 they have not fucked up things. They might as well trace themselves back to Charlemagne and come up with a bullshit argument about him being the father of the nation, but then so could the French and we're all getting into ridiculous territory now.

Tribalism, nationalism, ignorance etc. are synonyms for racism or racism entails all of them.
 
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