Photo : Reza Shah among students going abroad to study

[shahinc]

I am not sure if all of what you have fantasized is true for all. but some of it certainly is for some. so what? aren't people allowed to be apathetic? aren't they allowed to pursue their happiness?

It was not a fantasy but an simple observation and I thank you and am glad you acknowledged its validity.
As far as the so part, people can be apathetic to others and couple with the what ever regime throws at them. You are 100% right about that part and I could have not put it better myself.
I also have no problem with that !!! This is why I live here , work here and enjoy my life here.

Other the years, I have learned like many of our friends here ( some may not like to admit it) that the only interest that I should have in Iran ( given where I live and how people in Iran are and how out of touch with them I am these days) should be when there is a financial opportunity in the horizon or soccer and wrestling games.

 

[Zob Ahan]

Hindsight is 20/20. Bazargan was the 1st to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. When he did he resigned and fought the regime. People were blind and noone supported him. Toodeh and Fadaian and MKO and every other group at that point supported Khomeini and hostage taking. Don't make a devil out of the guy. He ain't no saint but he is far from a traitor. Looking at it this way there is not a single person that is not a khaen in iranian contemporary history.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

I can't believe this. Ireally can't. The fact is khomeini fooled so many people including Bazargan. But when Bazargan figured that out he stands up and openly object to likes of Khamenei, Khomeini, Rafsanjan ....
How many of you object to the service you get at Mehrabab/Khomenis airport when you deliver your pass and wait for exit stemple?

I do not recall any post of yours that I felt was as spot on as this one. This is a great, great post.

1) khomeini was a phenomenal politician, one of the best, if not the best, Iran has had in the modern era. He really played it beautifully and in the process used everyone and their brother for his own gain. Sanjabi and Bazargan being used in the process was more due to Khomeini's brilliance than their mistake and stupidity. For sure Bazargan was no Mossadegh as a politician but he was a head and shoulder better than what is out there now as opposition. People forget, it was Bazargan who wrote an open letter to Shah just before the revolution got in motion asking him to abdicate in favor of his son because people's hatred for the person of Shah was insurmountable. It was Shah who rejected and ridiculed it. How spot on Bazargan turned out to be.

2) And absolutely he stood up to Khomeini from the beginning after he started to show his true color more than just about all the current opposition ever did. Khomeini was simply too powerful for anyone.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Hindsight is 20/20. Bazargan was the 1st to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. When he did he resigned and fought the regime. People were blind and noone supported him. Toodeh and Fadaian and MKO and every other group at that point supported Khomeini and hostage taking. Don't make a devil out of the guy. He ain't no saint but he is far from a traitor. Looking at it this way there is not a single person that is not a khaen in iranian contemporary history.

Actually he figured out how evil Khomeini was and started fighting him long before his resignation. He started doing that in the first week of his term. It was just about every group out there from Tudeh to Fadaian to Mojahedin who made it their first priority to undermine Bazargan rather than join him in controlling khomeini.

 

[Behrooz_C]

Hindsight is 20/20. Bazargan was the 1st to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. When he did he resigned and fought the regime. People were blind and noone supported him. Toodeh and Fadaian and MKO and every other group at that point supported Khomeini and hostage taking. Don't make a devil out of the guy. He ain't no saint but he is far from a traitor. Looking at it this way there is not a single person that is not a khaen in iranian contemporary history.

No sorry. Bakhtiar was the first person to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. He was way ahead of Bazargan and warned off Khomeini long before Bazargan could sniff anything untoward. In fact, Bakhtiar was out of Iran predicting this very day when Bazargan was kissing Khomeini's hand.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

No sorry. Bakhtiar was the first person to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. He was way ahead of Bazargan and warned off Khomeini long before Bazargan could sniff anything untoward. In fact, Bakhtiar was out of Iran predicting this very day when Bazargan was kissing Khomeini's hand.

Ok, so Bazargan was second. Would this make him the evil, or incompetent fool you've made him out to be?

Documented history is actually as follows:

Bazargan, called Khomeini a power-hungry backward man after his visit with him in Paris in December. The question was what to do about the situation in December.

Bakhtiar thought that the best course was to save the regime. Bazargan thought that it is unsaveable and it may be possible to influence the course of events by embrasing the revolution and working from within. It is documented that the US had given up on Shah's regime by October and were already talking with Khomeini as the inevitable winner. Thus, Bakhtiar, and more precisely the policy he chose had no chance. It turns out that Bazargan also had no chance. Khomeini was too powerful and too popular for anyone going against his wishes to have a chance. Sometimes, game theory suggests that there is no chance of winning regardless.

The other inflection point was in August before the revolution was in full motion. This Bazargan got dead right. He did write to Shah and asked him to abdicate for his son.

Before that the opportunity was in embracing Shah's regime. This Bakhtiar, Bazargan and most importantly Sanjabi got dead wrong. They should have embraced Shah's regime. Sanjabi was most at fault. It is documented that the Shah repeatedly reached out to him to get them to come into the regime's fold but they refused. Everyone was too unappreciative of the great blessing Iran had in Shah's regime and even in the person of the Shah. Sure it was a dictatorship but it was far better than what the Iranian people actually deserved.

Once the revolution was in full motion there were only two winning strategies.

1) Leave Iran, take your money and reputation with you. Those who did were certainly winners.
2) Completely attach yourself to the person of Khomeini and the institution of Velayete Faqih. Again those who did were winners. The only problem with the latter is that you had to sell your soul to the devil and become dirty inside and out.

 

[shahinc]

No sorry. Bakhtiar was the first person to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. He was way ahead of Bazargan and warned off Khomeini long before Bazargan could sniff anything untoward. In fact, Bakhtiar was out of Iran predicting this very day when Bazargan was kissing Khomeini's hand.

Behrooz Jan, who cares when he found out that Khomeyni was evil !!!

Just look at his writing !!! just look at his son's web pages !!!! Look at his view on Islam and ... Those are all RED FLAGS !!! What is Sad is that Iranian people still can not see it.

Doostan mikhan hanoz ba Tanab Poosideh va Gandideh Amsal Bazargan be tah Chah beran .

That is the sad part.

 

[Zob Ahan]

No sorry. Bakhtiar was the first person to figure out what a cunt Khomeini was. He was way ahead of Bazargan and warned off Khomeini long before Bazargan could sniff anything untoward. In fact, Bakhtiar was out of Iran predicting this very day when Bazargan was kissing Khomeini's hand.

BC jan. You are right he was 2nd. Both Bakhtiar and Bazargan no doubt were vatanparast people that had their share of mistakes. Unfortunately anyone standing in the way of the tide during those turbulent times were going to be washed away.

 

[footballeirani]

If you believe in Islam in this day and age then you are seriously messed up. Leave the prejudice, family bonds, what you were taught in school aside and think for a little bit. Political correctness my ass, the fact that you believe in something so jibberish is an insult to the human race. The fact that 99.9999 percent of Iranians believe it does not make them right. It is still stupid.

Akhe to khodet aghl dari beshin ye khorde fekr kon. Miad inja every other sentence starts with "man" as if he is still in highschool. And to support his political views he recites the political opinions of his amoo and khaleh. They believe it so everyone else must be. Vay bar ma...

 

[feyenoord]

Problem is not Bazargan.

The issue is anyone who was ever against Shah, should be vilified to the point that voids in their personality becomes so much so that Shah and Reza Shah become like flawless heroes in comparison to them.The same tactics supporters of Khamenie and Khomeini have used in different cover. In the end, we should all kneel to the fact that everyone else was stupid and did not see what was about to come, except these heroes.

That pretty much means they had Chashme Basirat and the nations, intellectuals, and political parties didnt. They were some sort of Velayat Faghih, according to their supporters.:doh:

 

[ChaharMahal]

If you believe in Islam in this day and age then you are seriously messed up. Leave the prejudice, family bonds, what you were taught in school aside and think for a little bit. Political correctness my ass, the fact that you believe in something so jibberish is an insult to the human race. The fact that 99.9999 percent of Iranians believe it does not make them right. It is still stupid.

Akhe to khodet aghl dari beshin ye khorde fekr kon. Miad inja every other sentence starts with "man" as if he is still in highschool. And to support his political views he recites the political opinions of his amoo and khaleh. They believe it so everyone else must be. Vay bar ma...

easy for you and I to say having gone to western college and lived here many years.

you could argue the same with Christianity but in the western world there are millions that attend church. the reality is a different matter from what we like to see.

in reality Iranians are overwhelming "muslim" thus muslim politicians will be huge players if the government is a democratic one.

hell even mohammd reza shah saw it necessary to pretend to all sorts of emam reza paboosi.

 

[shahinc]

easy for you and I to say having gone to western college and lived here many years.

Why don't we start from ourself ( the western educated ones) and get on agreement and then worry about the rest of Iran. The problem with Iran is that our educated think it is LIBERAL of them to become apologist for Islamic fascism.

you could argue the same with Christianity but in the western world there are millions that attend church. the reality is a different matter from what we like to see.
.

You can not in any shape or form compare ISLAM with Christianity of the 21st century.
Christianity went through renaissance and it is a shadow of what it was once. Islam on the other hand is where christianity was in the dark ages.

Now, I know some friends here like to think renaissance or what Ataturk did in Turkey were peaceful and t was true talks, hugs and hand holding that church decided to give up its power and muslim clergymen in Turkey decided to stay out of politics!!!

But the historical facts suggest the complete opposite in both renaissance and Christianity and Islam and Ataturk in Turkey.

hell even mohammd reza shah saw it necessary to pretend to all sorts of emam reza paboosi.

And we saw what happened to him and the country. It was his mistakes and soft spot for Islam as a muslim that gave strength to the likes of Khomeyni and ... and the end result was IR.

 

[Flint]

easy for you and I to say having gone to western college and lived here many years.

you could argue the same with Christianity but in the western world there are millions that attend church. the reality is a different matter from what we like to see.

in reality Iranians are overwhelming "muslim" thus muslim politicians will be huge players if the government is a democratic one.

hell even mohammd reza shah saw it necessary to pretend to all sorts of emam reza paboosi.

You are inadvertently falling into the moral equivalency trap. What is next? Claiming that velayateh faghih is not much different than the Papacy, The Conclave and the cardinals are really not much different than shorayeh negahban and to top it off the just elected Pope Francis is their Khamenei himself.

 

[ChaharMahal]

You are inadvertently falling into the moral equivalency trap. What is next? Claiming that velayateh faghih is not much different than the Papacy, The Conclave and the cardinals are really not much different than shorayeh negahban and to top it off the just elected Pope Francis is their Khamenei himself.

no you are falling into allison wonderland.

the reality is if you are waiting around for majority of iranians to renounce islam.
It is something that won't likely happen in your life time or even your children's lifetime.

in an ideal world Iran would have a fully secular democratic government. that is made possible by a populace that is secular in nature.

but we know the reality is different. look at the u.s to this day. we are having arguments in each state about whether teaching creationism vs evolution is the right thing.
to this day we have ten commandments in front court houses.
to this day we have the clause "in god we trust" on the dollar bills.
to this day a liberal u.s president sees the need to attend church.

to this day republican party of the south seeks to overturn no fault divorce laws because it is incompatible with christian values.
the u.s with 220 years of Jeffersonian democracy is still striving to get to the perfect place.

do not set goals that are not attainable. the reality is those iranians who go and give out nazri. and yes pray only once a year when their emtehan is due.
are gone vote muslim people that are kind of like themselves. what I like to call Muslim by birth kind of folks.

and yes papacy is bit like velayat faghih all be it. a bit more modern and good looking.

 

[ChaharMahal]

Why don't we start from ourself ( the western educated ones) and get on agreement and then worry about the rest of Iran. The problem with Iran is that our educated think it is LIBERAL of them to become apologist for Islamic fascism.

that's the issue. some seeing the world as a gray one. as being apologetic to this and that.
the reality is our history is full of partial failures and partial triumphs of our political leaders.

The issue is that nobody can turn the clock back. and you don't like to see that.
nothing was gone stop the 1917 revolution in Russia in the last minute.
nothing was going to stop the 1979 revolution in Iran in the last minute.
nothing is going to stop a future upheaval in Iran.

Having seen what the fruits of the revolution is easy to go back and second guess every single move political leaders of the time made.

a Huge percentage of Iranians do not favor the current Iranian government.
but hell if this government falls apart and god forbid. in 30 years Iran splits in to 5 different countries.
My children might look back and after thirty years and say those idiots did not see the big picture that the u.s was trying
split Iran up.
but that does not change the reality that those are active in today's society did not see any other option that the ones they were led down to.

it is equally illogical for those us sitting here after thirty four years to say how the hell didn't those people know how things are gone turn out.

You can not in any shape or form compare ISLAM with Christianity of the 21st century.
Christianity went through renaissance and it is a shadow of what it was once. Islam on the other hand is where christianity was in the dark ages.

not comparing islam with Christianity. just point out that even in a "secular" western country to this day religion and religious politicians and religious voting block is a huge factor.
by the way go to southern state baptist church and see 21st christianity in action. it is not as "motaraghi" as you would think of it.
go have a look at the unofficially segregated churches.
the reality is Iran's path to secularism (if successful) is a going to be a long one. it might take a hundred years or so.

Now, I know some friends here like to think renaissance or what Ataturk did in Turkey were peaceful and t was true talks, hugs and hand holding that church decided to give up its power and muslim clergymen in Turkey decided to stay out of politics!!!

But the historical facts suggest the complete opposite in both renaissance and Christianity and Islam and Ataturk in Turkey.


And we saw what happened to him and the country.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at?

It was his mistakes and soft spot for Islam as a muslim that gave strength to the likes of Khomeyni and ... and the end result was IR.

what happened to him had nothing with the fact that he was too much of a muslim or too little of muslim.
the issue was the society at large was tiered of looking at the same guy being in charge of the whole country for as long they remembered.
They did not feel they are participating in the game.

There is similar feeling in the air in Iran. people feel the guy in charge has been around for way too long. and they do no feel part of the system.

 

[Flint]

to this day we have ten commandments in front court houses.
to this day we have the clause "in god we trust" on the dollar bills.
to this day a liberal u.s president sees the need to attend church.

to this day republican party of the south seeks to overturn no fault divorce laws because it is incompatible with christian values.
the u.s with 220 years of Jeffersonian democracy is still striving to get to the perfect place.

You are confusing theocracy with religion. None of the above have any bearing on your daily life and you know it. Are you sent to church? Are your children sent to Christian schools? What has in God We Trust changed your life? What do you care if Obama attends church? If anything it is the Christians who are being hounded. They even lost their Merry Christmas. The safest joke you can make is about Jesus or anything church.

 

[ChaharMahal]

You are confusing theocracy with religion. None of the above have any bearing on your daily life and you know it. Are you sent to church? Are your children sent to Christian schools? What has in God We Trust changed your life? What do you care if Obama attends church? If anything it is the Christians who are being hounded. They even lost their Merry Christmas. The safest joke you can make is about Jesus or anything church.

I don't give darn about what obama does.
just merely pointing out that in the u.s to this day there is quite bit of chirstian influence.
you can't hope that in a future Iran a president or prime minister of secular state to host a foreign leader in moharam and serve champaign when moharam is going on.

you can't expect that politicians wont use things like mah ramadan to advance their political agendas.

some people here have a fantasy that Iran is gone suddenly turn out to be a country that all signs of islam are going to be absent.
and that government is not gone spend a penny on anything religious.

 

[Flint]

some people here have a fantasy that Iran is gone suddenly turn out to be a country that all signs of islam are going to be absent.

That is a red herring and nobody is saying that. I certainly am not. For religion having an "influence" is quite different than Islam governing every aspect of your life in law. I don't understand why you insist on making the US look like it is run by some sort of Christian sharia. I asked you once and here it is again. 85% of the country is Christian. What are you doing that you don't want because of Christianity?

 

[ChaharMahal]

That is a red herring and nobody is saying that. I certainly am not. For religion having an "influence" is quite different than Islam governing every aspect of your life in law. I don't understand why you insist on making the US look like it is run by some sort of Christian sharia. I asked you once and here it is again. 85% of the country is Christian. What are you doing that you don't want because of Christianity?

show me how many politicians we have in the u.s who got elected are atheist,muslim,hindu,budihist,...

all you see is Christians and Jews. just saying do not underestimate the power of religion in the u.s

isn't christmass a federal holiday?

yes comparing with theocratic country like Iran. U.S looks like a fully secular one.

my point is not to make United States look like a country run by Christians. my point is to show you even in a country with 220 years of democratic history. the country has not fully secularized.

 

[DireStraits]

I do not recall any post of yours that I felt was as spot on as this one. This is a great, great post.

1) khomeini was a phenomenal politician, one of the best, if not the best, Iran has had in the modern era. He really played it beautifully and in the process used everyone and their brother for his own gain. Sanjabi and Bazargan being used in the process was more due to Khomeini's brilliance than their mistake and stupidity. For sure Bazargan was no Mossadegh as a politician but he was a head and shoulder better than what is out there now as opposition. People forget, it was Bazargan who wrote an open letter to Shah just before the revolution got in motion asking him to abdicate in favor of his son because people's hatred for the person of Shah was insurmountable. It was Shah who rejected and ridiculed it. How spot on Bazargan turned out to be.

2) And absolutely he stood up to Khomeini from the beginning after he started to show his true color more than just about all the current opposition ever did. Khomeini was simply too powerful for anyone.

I can see you are the only one who understand what I wrote because you remember how things were that time. You could hardy critisize Khomeini in your family in your class room
any where. Bazargan was beaten everyday by hezbollahis before he reaches inside the parliament. He still protested to khomeini with his old tiny body. I thought it was fantastic.
When Khomeini appointed him as the primeminister people were chanting
"Be gofte khomeini Bazargan nakhost vazire Iran."
If khomeini appointed say khamenei people were out and say
"Be gofte khomeini Khamenei nakhost vazire iran"
So was it good that Bazargan accepted the offer or not?
It is up to peoples judgment. Did it help that Bakhtyar accepted Shahs offer to become the primeminister? It still is up to peoples judgement. I say people that time were generally prejodiced which was why khomeini got so much trust so much support. Sharif emami, Azhari and Bakhtyar were the worst primeminister shah had in his time. Bakhtyar practically converted the power to khomeini. He was searching dialog with khomeini and in this process he gave khomeini every thing he wanted until suddenly it was late. Wasn't it Bakhtyar who practically released all political prisoners including MKO which reinforced Khomeinis activists against the shah? Wasn't it sharif emami who approved a law "strike pay" so people could get paid while they were chanting against
Shah? Wasn't it Azhari who killed so many people to portrate Shah as yazid and khomeini as Imam. The truth is politicians close to Shah had no ideahow to avoid this from happening.
Infact they helped khomeini not Shah. The problem was general "Luck of knowledge". Now convict Bazargan if you like. Many things he did and said was not right stil he was amoung the wisest Iranians in that time.