unfortunately we really don't have very reliable sources to unfold many things in our history .the influnces of religoius scholores and illitercies of over 95% of population till 60,70 years ago had prevented a nation from learning about their true history .the ones others wrote about iran are prejudice in some degree .
however the original people who establised the idea of shia'sm were the trible who lived in gilan(north of iran) .
after iran was captured (1400 years ago) there were places where had never been occupied .one was gilan and all the way to the mountain side of aredebil and some part of azarbayejan .
in year of 945 that trible when witness of the injustices towrds the rest of iranian and also heard about some arabs tribes who also escaped from brutal rullers of the time came to gilan as a safe heaven. finally the people of dele-mian decided to react .with their brave fighters went all the way to baghdad the capital of khalifs and stablished themselve for 110 years in that region .
was it their real name dele-mians or dere-mian i still don't know . as you know dere ( church ) and pasvand of mian( gilaki mean from inside of the church). still unkonwn
if they did hide their orginal charistianty from the rest but could one saw a lot of similarities. of the same idea . the numbers of 12 or 14 masoum ( innocents ) ,12 +2 .etc .
they stayed in baghdad after for 110 years ( c+ x) or c+ j is same number of ali ( 110) .
the sad thing is we didn't have so many iranian historians who explored about in our real history except a few in modern time, like kasarvi, adamiat and dr milan yrecent effort with two books which all could be usedfull .still alot of stories about begining of islam in iran is in tabari book somehow could help .
however the original people who establised the idea of shia'sm were the trible who lived in gilan(north of iran) .
after iran was captured (1400 years ago) there were places where had never been occupied .one was gilan and all the way to the mountain side of aredebil and some part of azarbayejan .
in year of 945 that trible when witness of the injustices towrds the rest of iranian and also heard about some arabs tribes who also escaped from brutal rullers of the time came to gilan as a safe heaven. finally the people of dele-mian decided to react .with their brave fighters went all the way to baghdad the capital of khalifs and stablished themselve for 110 years in that region .
was it their real name dele-mians or dere-mian i still don't know . as you know dere ( church ) and pasvand of mian( gilaki mean from inside of the church). still unkonwn
if they did hide their orginal charistianty from the rest but could one saw a lot of similarities. of the same idea . the numbers of 12 or 14 masoum ( innocents ) ,12 +2 .etc .
they stayed in baghdad after for 110 years ( c+ x) or c+ j is same number of ali ( 110) .
the sad thing is we didn't have so many iranian historians who explored about in our real history except a few in modern time, like kasarvi, adamiat and dr milan yrecent effort with two books which all could be usedfull .still alot of stories about begining of islam in iran is in tabari book somehow could help .
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# 12 has historically been fascinating number for hunman beings ,and early civilizations often gave prominance to this number i.e Time ( 12 months a year,12*2 hours a day), measurement and weights , math , astronomy and all other subjects that preoccupied early humans.
Religions ,being man made philosophies were no exempt and #12 not only played a role in semetic religions but subcontinent India and Chinese religions.
I have no knowledge why shite settled for 12 emams ( perhaps they had the foresight of knowing that there would be gosale-gan who would worship 11,000 offsprings of 11 and that is good enough).Perhaps 12 being a magical composite number was a good number of the chosen absent one...I don't know ...
I suspect that fascination with #12 , may have been rooted in astrology in older civilizations and gradually worked their way into man made semitic religions..
Particularly Mithraism>>>>>Christanity>>Shite Islam
Below is about significance of #12 in religion. Doesn't answer your question but interesting:
In religion and mythology
There are twelve ' Jyotirlingas' (epitome of God Shiva) in Hindu Shaivism. The shaivites (orthodox devotees of God Shiva) treat them with great respect and these are visited by almost every pious Hindu at least once in a lifetime. The number 12 is very important in many religions, mainly Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and also found in some older religions and belief systems.
In Antiquity there are numerous magical/religious uses of twelves.[2] Ancient Greek religion, the Twelve Olympians were the principal gods of the pantheon. The chief Norse god, Odin, had 12 sons. Several sets of twelve cities are identified in history as a dodecapolis, the most familiar being the Etruscan League. In the King Arthur Legend, Arthur is said to have subdued 12 rebel princes and to have won 12 great battles against Saxon invaders. [source: Benet's Reader's Encyclopedia, 3d ed]
The importance of 12 in Judaism and Christianity can be found in the Bible. The biblical Jacob had 12 sons, who were the progenitors of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, while the New Testament describes twelve apostles of Jesus; when Judas Iscariot was disgraced, a meeting was held (Acts) to add Matthias to complete the number twelve once more. (Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.)
The Book of Jude contains much numerical symbolism, and a lot of the numbers mentioned have 12 as a divisor. 12:1 mentions a woman — interpreted as the people of Israel, the Church or the Virgin Mary — wearing a crown of twelve stars (representing each of the twelve tribes of Israel). Furthermore, there are 12,000 people sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, making a total of 144,000 (which is the square of 12 multiplied by a thousand).
In Orthodox Judaism, 12 signifies the age a girl matures (bat mitzvah)
There are 12 days of Christmas. The song Twelve Days of Christmas came from the traditional practice of extending Yuletide celebrations over the twelve days from Christmas day to the eve of Epiphany; the period of thirteen days including Epiphany is sometimes known as Christmastide. Thus Twelfth Night is another name for the twelfth day of Christmas or January 5 (the eve of Epiphany). Similarly, Eastern Orthodoxy observes 12 Great Feasts.
In Twelver Shi'a Islam, there are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the prophet Muhammad. These twelve early leaders of Islam are—Ali, Hasan, Husayn, and nine of Husayn's descendants.
Imāmah (Arabic: إمامة) is the Shī‘ah doctrine of religious, spiritual and political leadership of the Ummah. The Shī‘ah believe that the A'immah ("Imams") are the true Caliphs or rightful successors of Muḥammad, and Twelver and Ismā‘īlī Shī‘ah further that Imams are possessed of supernatural knowledge, authority, and infallibility (‘Iṣmah) as well as being part of the Ahl al-Bayt, the family of Muhammad.[1] Both beliefs distinguish the Shī‘ah from Sunnis.
In Hinduism, the sun god Surya has 12 names. Also, there are 12 Petals in Anahata (Heart Chakra.)
The Twelve Labours of Hercules
Religions ,being man made philosophies were no exempt and #12 not only played a role in semetic religions but subcontinent India and Chinese religions.
I have no knowledge why shite settled for 12 emams ( perhaps they had the foresight of knowing that there would be gosale-gan who would worship 11,000 offsprings of 11 and that is good enough).Perhaps 12 being a magical composite number was a good number of the chosen absent one...I don't know ...
I suspect that fascination with #12 , may have been rooted in astrology in older civilizations and gradually worked their way into man made semitic religions..
Particularly Mithraism>>>>>Christanity>>Shite Islam
Below is about significance of #12 in religion. Doesn't answer your question but interesting:
In religion and mythology
There are twelve ' Jyotirlingas' (epitome of God Shiva) in Hindu Shaivism. The shaivites (orthodox devotees of God Shiva) treat them with great respect and these are visited by almost every pious Hindu at least once in a lifetime. The number 12 is very important in many religions, mainly Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and also found in some older religions and belief systems.
In Antiquity there are numerous magical/religious uses of twelves.[2] Ancient Greek religion, the Twelve Olympians were the principal gods of the pantheon. The chief Norse god, Odin, had 12 sons. Several sets of twelve cities are identified in history as a dodecapolis, the most familiar being the Etruscan League. In the King Arthur Legend, Arthur is said to have subdued 12 rebel princes and to have won 12 great battles against Saxon invaders. [source: Benet's Reader's Encyclopedia, 3d ed]
The importance of 12 in Judaism and Christianity can be found in the Bible. The biblical Jacob had 12 sons, who were the progenitors of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, while the New Testament describes twelve apostles of Jesus; when Judas Iscariot was disgraced, a meeting was held (Acts) to add Matthias to complete the number twelve once more. (Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.)
The Book of Jude contains much numerical symbolism, and a lot of the numbers mentioned have 12 as a divisor. 12:1 mentions a woman — interpreted as the people of Israel, the Church or the Virgin Mary — wearing a crown of twelve stars (representing each of the twelve tribes of Israel). Furthermore, there are 12,000 people sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, making a total of 144,000 (which is the square of 12 multiplied by a thousand).
In Orthodox Judaism, 12 signifies the age a girl matures (bat mitzvah)
There are 12 days of Christmas. The song Twelve Days of Christmas came from the traditional practice of extending Yuletide celebrations over the twelve days from Christmas day to the eve of Epiphany; the period of thirteen days including Epiphany is sometimes known as Christmastide. Thus Twelfth Night is another name for the twelfth day of Christmas or January 5 (the eve of Epiphany). Similarly, Eastern Orthodoxy observes 12 Great Feasts.
In Twelver Shi'a Islam, there are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the prophet Muhammad. These twelve early leaders of Islam are—Ali, Hasan, Husayn, and nine of Husayn's descendants.
Imāmah (Arabic: إمامة) is the Shī‘ah doctrine of religious, spiritual and political leadership of the Ummah. The Shī‘ah believe that the A'immah ("Imams") are the true Caliphs or rightful successors of Muḥammad, and Twelver and Ismā‘īlī Shī‘ah further that Imams are possessed of supernatural knowledge, authority, and infallibility (‘Iṣmah) as well as being part of the Ahl al-Bayt, the family of Muhammad.[1] Both beliefs distinguish the Shī‘ah from Sunnis.
In Hinduism, the sun god Surya has 12 names. Also, there are 12 Petals in Anahata (Heart Chakra.)
The Twelve Labours of Hercules
It was not planned to be twelve, Emamat was supposed to be continued until judgment day. Like any other dynasty they had set a precedent of selecting their oldest son as successor to the leadership.
But never thought what would happen if one of them could not bear a child or a son.
Problem surfaced at the end Hassan Asgari's life who was impotent and did not have any child. So his 4 advisers (Navvab e Arbaeh) decided to come up with “Hidden pregnant female slave“ scenario who gave birth to the 12th emam Mahdi whom no one has ever seen except those 4 advisors who later on claimed they got in touch with 4 years old Mahdi at the end of his short absence (Ghaybat e Soghraa) that lasted 4 years. Mahdi allegedly told them that he will disappear for a loooong time and at his absence Shiaa should follow certain rules (Shiaa doctrine for emulation). Basically appointed Mullas to be in charge of the sheep while he is gone.
But never thought what would happen if one of them could not bear a child or a son.
Problem surfaced at the end Hassan Asgari's life who was impotent and did not have any child. So his 4 advisers (Navvab e Arbaeh) decided to come up with “Hidden pregnant female slave“ scenario who gave birth to the 12th emam Mahdi whom no one has ever seen except those 4 advisors who later on claimed they got in touch with 4 years old Mahdi at the end of his short absence (Ghaybat e Soghraa) that lasted 4 years. Mahdi allegedly told them that he will disappear for a loooong time and at his absence Shiaa should follow certain rules (Shiaa doctrine for emulation). Basically appointed Mullas to be in charge of the sheep while he is gone.
Is this true? I am not a Shia, so I don't know the story - but this sounds really weird.
Most Sunnis also believe in a Mahdi, RA, but he will be born a natural birth and is not waiting in a well or cave or something. He will be a normal human being. He will be a caliph/ leader but will add nothing new to Islam, he is only there to reaffirm what the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, has already been given. By the Grace and Will of God, he will establish justice on earth - but only by the Grace of God.
Thanks for information Motori jaan.
Most Sunnis also believe in a Mahdi, RA, but he will be born a natural birth and is not waiting in a well or cave or something. He will be a normal human being. He will be a caliph/ leader but will add nothing new to Islam, he is only there to reaffirm what the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, has already been given. By the Grace and Will of God, he will establish justice on earth - but only by the Grace of God.
Thanks for information Motori jaan.
If that is true, then that implies god never spoke nor chose those imams. If so, here are my questions:
1) How did the 2,3, and so on Imams knew what words of god are and what was their purpose?
2) This implies Shiites should follow the Imams. And it also implies there should therefore be people to follow, for shiites, at anytime, even today. Does that not also imply the position of the supreme leader?
3) How is it acceptable to not idolize not mention Muhamad, but it is fine to mention the imams?
So much unknowns and confusions. If I was a shiite, I feel like I will be so much in need of the akhoonds to explain it.
1) How did the 2,3, and so on Imams knew what words of god are and what was their purpose?
2) This implies Shiites should follow the Imams. And it also implies there should therefore be people to follow, for shiites, at anytime, even today. Does that not also imply the position of the supreme leader?
3) How is it acceptable to not idolize not mention Muhamad, but it is fine to mention the imams?
So much unknowns and confusions. If I was a shiite, I feel like I will be so much in need of the akhoonds to explain it.
LOM jaan,
Islam's position is very clear, and this is why I think it contradicts with Shia'ism.... Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was given the PERFECT and FINAL message according to the Quran!
GOD says in the Quran:
Now, if you are a Muslim and believe this, why is Imamate so important? What is the purpose of the Imams? What else can they tell us that GOD did not tell Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that he told the Imams? Again these verses clearly contradict these Mullahs and Shia'ism ... innovation has slipped in.
Islam's position is very clear, and this is why I think it contradicts with Shia'ism.... Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was given the PERFECT and FINAL message according to the Quran!
GOD says in the Quran:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things (33:40)
I swear by the star when it goes down. Your companion does not err, nor does he (Muhammad) go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed, The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him; (Quran 53:1-5)
"Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Islam as the religion for you." Quran 5:3 Now, if you are a Muslim and believe this, why is Imamate so important? What is the purpose of the Imams? What else can they tell us that GOD did not tell Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that he told the Imams? Again these verses clearly contradict these Mullahs and Shia'ism ... innovation has slipped in.
یاد ِ داستانی افتادم که سالها پیش در مشهد اتفاق افتاد
آیت الله مصباح یزدی را که همه می شناسید ، از طرفداران ِ مهدویت و ظهور ِ امام ِ دوازدهم.همونی که با همه دعوا داره
ایشان در همان زمانی که دُکان ِ جمکران را سازماندهی می کردند سَری هم به مشهد زدند که یک شعبه ی ِ مهدویت هم در مشهد باز کنند
به عبارت ِ دیگر ایشان می خواست که یک رقیبی برای ِ امام ِ هشتم (رضا) در مشهد درست کنند
در جلسه ای که در آستان ِ قدس رضوی با آیت الله طبَسی ( نایب التولیه ی آستان ِ امام ِ هشتم رضا ) داشتند این مسئله را مطرح کردند که مشهدی ها هم باید برای ِ ظهور ِ امام ِ دوازدهم تلاش کنند و از این مزخرفات
: گفته می شود که آیت الله طبسی هم با خنده جواب داد
جناب ِ مصباح ، امام ِ زمان ِ ما همان امام رضاست که سالهاست ظهور کرده و برکاتش نصیب ِ مشهدی ها شده است
شما مگر خبر ندارید که مشهدی ها هشت امامی هستند ؟
" خلاصه اینکه به قول ِ مشهدی ها به یارو گفت : " شب بیا باغ
آیت الله مصباح از مشهد رفت و چند سال بعد هم که خواست نماینده ی ِ مشهد در مجلس ِ خبرگان شود رای نیاورد و از آخر اوّل شد
: در اون روزهای ِ انتخابات ، در و دیوارهای ِ مشهد پُر شده بود از نقل ِقولی از خمینی که گفته بود
" این آقای ِ مصباح با همه سَر ِ جنگ دارد "
و اینگونه بود که پروژه ی ِ امام زمان در مشهد توسط ِ امام رضا ضربه فنّی شد
آیت الله مصباح یزدی را که همه می شناسید ، از طرفداران ِ مهدویت و ظهور ِ امام ِ دوازدهم.همونی که با همه دعوا داره
ایشان در همان زمانی که دُکان ِ جمکران را سازماندهی می کردند سَری هم به مشهد زدند که یک شعبه ی ِ مهدویت هم در مشهد باز کنند
به عبارت ِ دیگر ایشان می خواست که یک رقیبی برای ِ امام ِ هشتم (رضا) در مشهد درست کنند
در جلسه ای که در آستان ِ قدس رضوی با آیت الله طبَسی ( نایب التولیه ی آستان ِ امام ِ هشتم رضا ) داشتند این مسئله را مطرح کردند که مشهدی ها هم باید برای ِ ظهور ِ امام ِ دوازدهم تلاش کنند و از این مزخرفات
: گفته می شود که آیت الله طبسی هم با خنده جواب داد
جناب ِ مصباح ، امام ِ زمان ِ ما همان امام رضاست که سالهاست ظهور کرده و برکاتش نصیب ِ مشهدی ها شده است
شما مگر خبر ندارید که مشهدی ها هشت امامی هستند ؟
" خلاصه اینکه به قول ِ مشهدی ها به یارو گفت : " شب بیا باغ
آیت الله مصباح از مشهد رفت و چند سال بعد هم که خواست نماینده ی ِ مشهد در مجلس ِ خبرگان شود رای نیاورد و از آخر اوّل شد
: در اون روزهای ِ انتخابات ، در و دیوارهای ِ مشهد پُر شده بود از نقل ِقولی از خمینی که گفته بود
" این آقای ِ مصباح با همه سَر ِ جنگ دارد "
و اینگونه بود که پروژه ی ِ امام زمان در مشهد توسط ِ امام رضا ضربه فنّی شد
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Couple things are clear:
Are you implying that LordofMordor is unwise for asking this question? Because his question was serious.
Also, you mean, a small and insignificant technological device like a mouse needs a creator yet the vast and highly complicated Earth and the Galaxies do not have a Creator?
Are you implying that LordofMordor is unwise for asking this question? Because his question was serious.
Also, you mean, a small and insignificant technological device like a mouse needs a creator yet the vast and highly complicated Earth and the Galaxies do not have a Creator?