Rohani receiving his Doctorate in Philosophy, UK 1999 (Footage)

eerooni

Bench Warmer
Nov 9, 2002
1,996
1
Toronto
#41
Akhunds are masters of deceit. they will dress like Elvis if it would give them the world! They are shrewd and calculative and the last thing they believe in is Religion!!..... Religion is for fools and village idiots!....
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#42
Well first step there is a hope now that sanctions could be eased thus economy slowly improving...Also social restrictions could be eased...Rohani may not be khatami but he is a moderate and a pragmatist..And in fact he may be stronger than Khatami...Also don't forget that Khamenei will most likely die in the next 8 years and if the moderates (I won't even say reformists) have any influence over the next choice of VF (should there be another one), then we might see some concrete progress

I know the above is very very optimistic and please don't bother telling me it's faults as not only am I likely to agree with you, I could also add a few more myself! But at least it is some sort of a "Road map"!
Road map to where Abed jaan? In 2009, your road map was for us to live in 2005 again. In 2013 that road map is to be back in 2009! In 2017, it will be to be back in 2013! Darigh az dirooz is not really a road map for the future, it's just digression to the past.
 
Jan 23, 2003
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#43
No, you have difficulty seeing what has been happening to your country, and no change means more of the same. I will come up with an outline if you promise to follow it. There are many people out there with plans and they have spelled out what to do. The point is that you and others who have given up are not willing to take a smallest step to follow any of it. So, you are asking the question to say that no plan is good enough. That is your point. You would have told people who came out in 2009 the same thing. However, not giving up takes people far and one day all will come together.

I know what you are asking but what is the point? Let's assume I have no plans, no outline, and neither does anyone else. So, what's your response? OK, nobody has any plans. So what? That we should just shut up and not even voice an opinion when the country is being raped? Don't voice our opposition to Akhunds taking over the country? Accept that maybe Rohani will let our women show a few more strands of hair? Hope that Rohani can smile some and the world will loosen the pressure and economy can improve? Rohani has been with this regime from the beginning, since 1357. He has been involved one way or another in all that has happened. This guy was 30 when he came to Iran, less than 10 days before 22 Bahman. Many in that age group died in the war. I wonder where this guy was back then.
What is the plan? And even if there is a plan to "kick the akhunds out" and is executed successfully, then that would be the easy part accomplished!

Road map to where Abed jaan? In 2009, your road map was for us to live in 2005 again. In 2013 that road map is to be back in 2009! In 2017, it will be to be back in 2013! Darigh az dirooz is not really a road map for the future, it's just digression to the past.
Road map that would lead to having another go at reform. Yes may not get there and reform may well fail again (even if it succeeds it won't be ideal), but still its the only viable option IMO.

The problem with IR anti-reform opposition is that, despite plenty of opinion and rhetoric, they cannot even come up with a plan to topple IR, let alone a plan to manage the country after it.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#46
What is the plan? And even if there is a plan to "kick the akhunds out" and is executed successfully, then that would be the easy part accomplished!

The problem with IR anti-reform opposition is that, despite plenty of opinion and rhetoric, they cannot even come up with a plan to topple IR, let alone a plan to manage the country after it.
As I said, there are many plans out there for those who are "genuinely" interested and want to get involved. Clearly, you have made up your mind that nobody has any plans, and even if there are any plans, they will be unsuccessful. You can only see reforming the system that is run by Akhunds. Based on this conclusion, you want everyone to shut up and not say a word against the system, because your response is "what's your plan?" The problem with pro-IR crowd is that they make it seem like getting rid of this shitty system is an impossible task, and that people should give up and bend over, because some Akhunds are softer on people than others.
 

feyenoord

Bench Warmer
Aug 23, 2005
1,706
0
#47
As I said, there are many plans out there for those who are "genuinely" interested and want to get involved. Clearly, you have made up your mind that nobody has any plans, and even if there are any plans, they will be unsuccessful. You can only see reforming the system that is run by Akhunds. Based on this conclusion, you want everyone to shut up and not say a word against the system, because your response is "what's your plan?" The problem with pro-IR crowd is that they make it seem like getting rid of this shitty system is an impossible task, and that people should give up and bend over, because some Akhunds are softer on people than others.
Can you name one of those plans? I am all for it if it is good.
 
Jan 23, 2003
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#50
As I said, there are many plans out there for those who are "genuinely" interested and want to get involved. Clearly, you have made up your mind that nobody has any plans, and even if there are any plans, they will be unsuccessful. You can only see reforming the system that is run by Akhunds. Based on this conclusion, you want everyone to shut up and not say a word against the system, because your response is "what's your plan?" The problem with pro-IR crowd is that they make it seem like getting rid of this shitty system is an impossible task, and that people should give up and bend over, because some Akhunds are softer on people than others.
1) Who said anything about shutting up? This is a discussion forum where you criticised those that support reforms and I asked what's your alternative. That's all. I don't want anyone to shut up actually as much as I do find it ridiculous dismissing the reformists out of hand when they don't have a viable plan themselves.

2) No. We, the "pro-IR crowd", don't think getting rid of this system is impossible (although improbable). Any system can be toppled should there be a strong enough uprising coupled with serious splits in the military ranks. It would be one those events that is deemed impossible before it occurs, and inevitable after it has occurred! But my question is how the anti-reform opposition are going to bring this about and more importantly how can we ensure that Iran will smoothly transform into a peaceful secular democracy?
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#51
1) Who said anything about shutting up? This is a discussion forum where you criticised those that support reforms and I asked what's your alternative. That's all. I don't want anyone to shut up actually as much as I do find it ridiculous dismissing the reformists out of hand when they don't have a viable plan themselves.

2) No. We, the "pro-IR crowd", don't think getting rid of this system is impossible (although improbable). Any system can be toppled should there be a strong enough uprising coupled with serious splits in the military ranks. It would be one those events that is deemed impossible before it occurs, and inevitable after it has occurred! But my question is how the anti-reform opposition are going to bring this about and more importantly how can we ensure that Iran will smoothly transform into a peaceful secular democracy?
Then, you should go back and take a look at the post that I made to which you tersely responded "How?" Why do I need to have a plan or present a plan if I don't approve of the system or the Akhunds that are running it including the new selected Akhund. In that post, I did not say what you or anyone else should do or that we should get together to bring an end to this system. Again, go look at my first post to which you responded. All I could gather from your response was that if I don't have a plan, I should not say anything even though there was no mention of a plan in my post or I was giving any roadmap to anyone. All I said was that IRI has been raping the country and one does not have to wait to see what the new Akhund does to know that IRI is not the right system.

Your response that I have to have a plan before ranting about the system is one way of shutting down other people. Otherwise, why would your response be "how?"

Getting rid of IRI is not improbable, but it's just a matter of time. Something that seems improbabl today can be very probable given a few years or some more time. However, it can be improbable or impossible if people give in and accept the system as is.

As for SOS Iran and their plans, since ZA asked, Google it and you will see their web site.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#52
Here's a plan guys... Stop putting your hope for change in someone who believes Emam Zaman helped him get elected! Seriously... it's the 21st century! Once you stop putting your hope in someone who believes in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause, or idolizes someone who believed economics is for donkeys, then we can get serious about change. Until then, and contrary to what you hope for but consider impossible deep down inside (for a reason), we can expect the economy to slide down further and Santa Clause or EZ most likely won't be lifting sanctions for Christmas or help the 5 million addicts in the country by waving a magic wand! If you want a "viable plan" then stop believing in fairy tales and maybe some options will open up in the real world! :confused-
 
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Jan 23, 2003
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0
#53
Then, you should go back and take a look at the post that I made to which you tersely responded "How?" Why do I need to have a plan or present a plan if I don't approve of the system or the Akhunds that are running it including the new selected Akhund. In that post, I did not say what you or anyone else should do or that we should get together to bring an end to this system. Again, go look at my first post to which you responded. All I could gather from your response was that if I don't have a plan, I should not say anything even though there was no mention of a plan in my post or I was giving any roadmap to anyone. All I said was that IRI has been raping the country and one does not have to wait to see what the new Akhund does to know that IRI is not the right system.

Your response that I have to have a plan before ranting about the system is one way of shutting down other people. Otherwise, why would your response be "how?"

Getting rid of IRI is not improbable, but it's just a matter of time. Something that seems improbabl today can be very probable given a few years or some more time. However, it can be improbable or impossible if people give in and accept the system as is.

As for SOS Iran and their plans, since ZA asked, Google it and you will see their web site.
Sorry we are having a debate and hold opposing views. In general when this happens, regardless of the topic or nature of the debate, both parties will test each other with comments and questions in a bid to show the other that their theory is flawed and doesn't hold water. Bi-Honar is doing the exact same thing when criticising reforms within IR. This is absolutely fine and does not mean "shut up"! By your standards then you are putting Oghab down because after he hoped for some improvements in peoples lives, you first expressed your "shock" as to how some people think and blasted off with how bad the regime is and if they stay another second its too much. Or I could accuse Bi-Honar for telling me to "shut up" in his post no: 42 where he said reform in this regime is just a digression to the past and will lead to nowhere.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#54
^^^ I'd never tell anyone to shut up Abed jaan, especially you. I'm a firm believer that a culture of silence only creates more wounds and it is only through dialogue and reaching out to ALL people that old wounds can be healed and we can move forward - otherwise, I would have supported this non-inclusive "reform" process that has already led to the silencing of more newspapers and dissidents than the conservatives could ever do on their own! ;)
 
Jan 23, 2003
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#55
^^^ I'd never tell anyone to shut up Abed jaan, especially you. I'm a firm believer that a culture of silence only creates more wounds and it is only through dialogue and reaching out to ALL people that old wounds can be healed and we can move forward - otherwise, I would have supported this non-inclusive "reform" process that has already led to the silencing of more newspapers and dissidents than the conservatives could ever do on their own! ;)
haha of course nor did I accuse you of doing so...

Re your second point, it's funny and witty but not true....journalists found life much easier during the Khatami era than now. You may argue that the reform path is a 360 degree course that will lead again to the likes of AN (which I share some of the concerns), but lets just leave it there...
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#56
journalists found life much easier during the Khatami era than now.
You mean they had A/C in Evin back in those days or it was the fact that their cell mates were a whole bunch of young energetic students?! ;)

Putting funny, witty, myth and fairy tales aside, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't 600 newspapers censored under Khatami when he was the Minister of Culture? Weren't more than 150 newspapers closed during his presidency, more than 200 journalists summoned or jailed and 5 killed or disappeared? Wasn't the student movement crushed and the largest mass trial of dissidents since the revolution take place under his presidency?!

Didn't he praise the giants of suppression like Lajevari, Khalkhali and Lankarani? But worst of all, didn't he call Khomeini "the leading reformist of our time" and say that his idea of civil society was the "prophet's medina"?!
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#57
As I recall, those who wanted to reform this system from within the system and were part of the system are now under indefinite house arrest. So, I don't know what the reformists' plans are. How do you reform a Constitution that recognizes Vellayat Faghih? What does reform mean anyway and what's the plan to accomplish it. Hoping for something to happen is not considered a plan.
 

feyenoord

Bench Warmer
Aug 23, 2005
1,706
0
#58
Since you asked for one, one of many plans is by SOS Iran.
Firstly, there is not much to see on that website. They have all nice goals, which most Iranians have them as well. However, you cannot see how they want to achieve them.

Also, what is their relationship with that clownshow, called "shoraye melliye Iranians", whom have chosen Reza Pahlavi as their leader?
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#59
Hoping for something to happen is not considered a plan.
We're still talking about and pinning our hopes on some mythical reforms that took place 15 years ago Ardesheer jaan, so I think it would be safe to say that our reformist friends are still a long way from the planning stage for a bright and real future - they just like to mention the word "plan" a lot when discussing issues with the rest of us! ;)

But I will tell you what the hope is. The hope is that Rohani will throw a few smiles around and melts the hearts of the P5+1 negotiators, so that sanctions will be lifted and business can go back to being hunky dory like it was under Khatami and Rafi, so that everyone can make a few more bucks and we can follow in the footsteps of the great Saudi brothers living in an Islamic police state but with good cash flow!

Honestly, in all the years I haven't heard of a single reformist even hoping for anything beyond that, let alone planning for it. Furthermore, my observation has been that reformists vehemently oppose or ridicule any plans or steps, not only in Iran but anywhere in the ME, that will take any country beyond an autocratic religious police state. I apologize in advance if that offends anyone, but I say it like I see it and that's based on my observations in the last 5 years. My hope is that more and more reformists realize exactly how their views are coming across to the rest of us.
 
Jan 23, 2003
3,619
0
#60
We're still talking about and pinning our hopes on some mythical reforms that took place 15 years ago Ardesheer jaan, so I think it would be safe to say that our reformist friends are still a long way from the planning stage for a bright and real future - they just like to mention the word "plan" a lot when discussing issues with the rest of us! ;)

But I will tell you what the hope is. The hope is that Rohani will throw a few smiles around and melts the hearts of the P5+1 negotiators, so that sanctions will be lifted and business can go back to being hunky dory like it was under Khatami and Rafi, so that everyone can make a few more bucks and we can follow in the footsteps of the great Saudi brothers living in an Islamic police state but with good cash flow!

Honestly, in all the years I haven't heard of a single reformist even hoping for anything beyond that, let alone planning for it. Furthermore, my observation has been that reformists vehemently oppose or ridicule any plans or steps, not only in Iran but anywhere in the ME, that will take any country beyond an autocratic religious police state. I apologize in advance if that offends anyone, but I say it like I see it and that's based on my observations in the last 5 years. My hope is that more and more reformists realize exactly how their views are coming across to the rest of us.
No offence taken and you are spot on (in regards to me anyway). After seeing "regime changes" in the surrounding countries, I am even more convinced that the only hope for prosperity (and a slim hope at that) is through reform (or peaceful change) from within.