this is just fucked up...

Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#41
No one likes Hamas. They are religious right wing just like the right wing government of Israel. They survive because Israel wants them to. Everytime they get weak, Israel makes them stronger. Why? Because they counter to Abbas and therefore keep the Palastinians divided. This way Israel can delay talks and built more settlements and take more lands. Netanyahu and the right wing government of Israel does not want a Palastinian country. They believe the lands was given to them by god. And they want to push Palastinain into few small packets and think they can force them into submission.

Flint, you have to stop thinking through our American filtering and look at it through a right wing religious group who believes god gave them the lands and have the right to do whatever it takes to get them.

Please read the article I posted below. It is printed from the Israeli newspaper.

Can you really see Hamas as tour and hotel operator? They pushed their fellow PLO members over rooftops. They are not in the tourism business. That I assure you. What does Israel have to gain from invading Gaza anyway? They LEFT the place 9 years ago. If Hamas had used those cement bags to build their beaches instead of building tunnels I assure you there would not be any war. When you say Gaza is a prison, I ask you why isn't the West Bank a prison? They can't wait to shove cameras in the faces of the wounded but they haven't used a single bag of cement paid by the UN to build them shelters. They are locking people up and hoping they get hit. In the mean time, the "leadership" is sipping tea in Doha. Nice.

I ask you this? What does Israel have to do to make Hamas happy?
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#42
Zed e Engelab, I understand the frustration but please understand the Israelis doing what they are doing and forcing America to support their actions enables Iranian fascist government and other arabic to get the syampthy of their base supporters and control them. It does not do well for Iran. Even 1978 revolution was effected by it.

It also ties up the US government hand as they cant tell others not kill and oppress when they support a government that does it. The Israeli conflict effect the entire middle east if not the rest of the world as openly makes the US look bad and enables fascists to use it as an excuse.

بابا دیگه بالا آوردیم از بس عکس و ویدئو از فلسطین و غزه گذاشتین. نه که ما دلمون نسوزه که این همه بی گناه کشته میشه اما حالا اگه یه بی گناه تو ایران قرار بود اعدام بشه هم اینهمه عکسو مطالب در موردش به اشتراک گذاشته میشد؟ کم ظلم میشه تو مملکت خودمون؟ چرا هیچ ملتی بداد ما نمیرسه؟ غریبه پرستی رو بذاریم کنار و از همسایه و محل خودمون شروع کنیم!!! به فکر کودکای کار باشیم که زورمون میاد یه آدامس ازشون بخریم. یه ساندویچ واسه یه آدم گشنه خریدن هیشکیو نمیکشه . . .ما خودمون مصیبتیم فقط گریه کن نداریم
 

Silverton

National Team Player
Nov 6, 2004
4,524
6
#43
The Secret Report That Helps Israelis Cover Atrocities

How Israel Spins War Crimes

by PATRICK COCKBURN

Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed.

There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those “who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel”.

Every one of the 112 pages in the booklet is marked “not for distribution or publication” and it is easy to see why. The Luntz report, officially entitled “The Israel project’s 2009 Global Language Dictionary, was leaked almost immediately to Newsweek Online, but its true importance has seldom been appreciated. It should be required reading for everybody, especially journalists, interested in any aspect of Israeli policy because of its “dos and don’ts” for Israeli spokesmen.
These are highly illuminating about the gap between what Israeli officials and politicians really believe, and what they say, the latter shaped in minute detail by polling to determine what Americans want to hear. Certainly, no journalist interviewing an Israeli spokesman should do so without reading this preview of many of the themes and phrases employed by Mr Regev and his colleagues.

The booklet is full of meaty advice about how they should shape their answers for different audiences. For example, the study says that “Americans agree that Israel ‘has a right to defensible borders’. But it does you no good to define exactly what those borders should be. Avoid talking about borders in terms of pre- or post-1967, because it only serves to remind Americans of Israel’s military history. Particularly on the left this does you harm. For instance, support for Israel’s right to defensible borders drops from a heady 89 per cent to under 60 per cent when you talk about it in terms of 1967.”

How about the right of return for Palestinian refugees who were expelled or fled in 1948 and in the following years, and who OR Book Going Rougeare not allowed to go back to their homes? Here Dr Luntz has subtle advice for spokesmen, saying that “the right of return is a tough issue for Israelis to communicate effectively because much of Israeli language sounds like the ‘separate but equal’ words of the 1950s segregationists and the 1980s advocates of Apartheid. The fact is, Americans don’t like, don’t believe and don’t accept the concept of ‘separate but equal’.”

So how should spokesmen deal with what the booklet admits is a tough question? They should call it a “demand”, on the grounds that Americans don’t like people who make demands. “Then say ‘Palestinians aren’t content with their own state. Now they’re demanding territory inside Israel’.” Other suggestions for an effective Israeli response include saying that the right of return might become part of a final settlement “at some point in the future”.

Dr Luntz notes that Americans as a whole are fearful of mass immigration into the US, so mention of “mass Palestinian immigration” into Israel will not go down well with them. If nothing else works, say that the return of Palestinians would “derail the effort to achieve peace”.

The Luntz report was written in the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 and January 2009, when 1,387 Palestinians and nine Israelis were killed.

There is a whole chapter on “isolating Iran-backed Hamas as an obstacle to peace”. Unfortunately, come the current Operation Protective Edge, which began on 6 July, there was a problem for Israeli propagandists because Hamas had quarrelled with Iran over the war in Syria and had no contact with Tehran. Friendly relations have been resumed only in the past few days – thanks to the Israeli invasion.

Much of Dr Luntz’s advice is about the tone and presentation of the Israeli case. He says it is absolutely crucial to exude empathy for Palestinians: “Persuadables [sic] won’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. Show Empathy for BOTH sides!”

This may explain why a number of Israeli spokesman are almost lachrymose about the plight of Palestinians being pounded by Israeli bombs and shells.

In a sentence in bold type, underlined and with capitalisation, Dr Luntz says that Israeli spokesmen or political leaders must never, ever justify “the deliberate slaughter of innocent women and children” and they must aggressively challenge those who accuse Israel of such a crime. Israeli spokesmen struggled to be true to this prescription when 16 Palestinians were killed in a UN shelter in Gaza last Thursday.

There is a list of words and phrases to be used and a list of those to be avoided. Schmaltz is at a premium: “The best way, the only way, to achieve lasting peace is to achieve mutual respect.” Above all, Israel’s desire for peace with the Palestinians should be emphasised at all times because this what Americans overwhelmingly want to happen. But any pressure on Israel to actually make peace can be reduced by saying “one step at a time, one day at a time”, which will be accepted as “a commonsense approach to the land-for-peace equation”.

Dr Luntz cites as an example of an “effective Israeli sound bite” one which reads: “I particularly want to reach out to Palestinian mothers who have lost their children. No parent should have to bury their child.”

The study admits that the Israeli government does not really want a two-state solution, but says this should be masked because 78 per cent of Americans do. Hopes for the economic betterment of Palestinians should be emphasised.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is quoted with approval for saying that it is “time for someone to ask Hamas: what exactly are YOU doing to bring prosperity to your people”. The hypocrisy of this beggars belief: it is the seven-year-old Israeli economic siege that has reduced the Gaza to poverty and misery.

On every occasion, the presentation of events by Israeli spokesmen is geared to giving Americans and Europeans the impression that Israel wants peace with the Palestinians and is prepared to compromise to achieve this, when all the evidence is that it does not. Though it was not intended as such, few more revealing studies have been written about modern Israel in times of war and peace.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/28/how-israel-spins-war-crimes/
 

shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
#44
There is going to be no end to this conflict as long as the extremist on BOTH SIDE are the ones with the strongest voice.

Stop the finger pointing and put aside the prejudice and the sense of entitlements if you want a solution.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#45
Their public relation and marketing is extremely strong with a lot of money to spend on it. Beside controlling the media and the US government through lobbying, they are extremely active on social media. Anytime, there is a post on a newspaper, they are in full force attacking in the comments. On facebook, I have never seen it being used so aggressively to promote Israeli's view. Love girls tatooing "Love IDF" on their bodies and posting. Alot of great campaigns for public relation by Israelis on Facebook.

You know there is huge percentage of young in Gaza and bombing this small very populated city will kill alot of children and major destruction. Solution, right at the beginning start saying how Hamas uses children as shields, etc and have the news media repeated. This way as you kill them, you can blame it on their own. And the sheep will buy anything told.

However, the destruction and killing have been so bad that even the sheep are thinking hmm. Their brain telling them what we are hearing about this people trying to defend themeselves with M16s, F16s, tanks and best military against this toy Hamas does not fit the story.


The Secret Report That Helps Israelis Cover Atrocities

How Israel Spins War Crimes

by PATRICK COCKBURN

Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed.

There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those “who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel”.

Every one of the 112 pages in the booklet is marked “not for distribution or publication” and it is easy to see why. The Luntz report, officially entitled “The Israel project’s 2009 Global Language Dictionary, was leaked almost immediately to Newsweek Online, but its true importance has seldom been appreciated. It should be required reading for everybody, especially journalists, interested in any aspect of Israeli policy because of its “dos and don’ts” for Israeli spokesmen.
These are highly illuminating about the gap between what Israeli officials and politicians really believe, and what they say, the latter shaped in minute detail by polling to determine what Americans want to hear. Certainly, no journalist interviewing an Israeli spokesman should do so without reading this preview of many of the themes and phrases employed by Mr Regev and his colleagues.

The booklet is full of meaty advice about how they should shape their answers for different audiences. For example, the study says that “Americans agree that Israel ‘has a right to defensible borders’. But it does you no good to define exactly what those borders should be. Avoid talking about borders in terms of pre- or post-1967, because it only serves to remind Americans of Israel’s military history. Particularly on the left this does you harm. For instance, support for Israel’s right to defensible borders drops from a heady 89 per cent to under 60 per cent when you talk about it in terms of 1967.”

How about the right of return for Palestinian refugees who were expelled or fled in 1948 and in the following years, and who OR Book Going Rougeare not allowed to go back to their homes? Here Dr Luntz has subtle advice for spokesmen, saying that “the right of return is a tough issue for Israelis to communicate effectively because much of Israeli language sounds like the ‘separate but equal’ words of the 1950s segregationists and the 1980s advocates of Apartheid. The fact is, Americans don’t like, don’t believe and don’t accept the concept of ‘separate but equal’.”

So how should spokesmen deal with what the booklet admits is a tough question? They should call it a “demand”, on the grounds that Americans don’t like people who make demands. “Then say ‘Palestinians aren’t content with their own state. Now they’re demanding territory inside Israel’.” Other suggestions for an effective Israeli response include saying that the right of return might become part of a final settlement “at some point in the future”.

Dr Luntz notes that Americans as a whole are fearful of mass immigration into the US, so mention of “mass Palestinian immigration” into Israel will not go down well with them. If nothing else works, say that the return of Palestinians would “derail the effort to achieve peace”.

The Luntz report was written in the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 and January 2009, when 1,387 Palestinians and nine Israelis were killed.

There is a whole chapter on “isolating Iran-backed Hamas as an obstacle to peace”. Unfortunately, come the current Operation Protective Edge, which began on 6 July, there was a problem for Israeli propagandists because Hamas had quarrelled with Iran over the war in Syria and had no contact with Tehran. Friendly relations have been resumed only in the past few days – thanks to the Israeli invasion.

Much of Dr Luntz’s advice is about the tone and presentation of the Israeli case. He says it is absolutely crucial to exude empathy for Palestinians: “Persuadables [sic] won’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. Show Empathy for BOTH sides!”

This may explain why a number of Israeli spokesman are almost lachrymose about the plight of Palestinians being pounded by Israeli bombs and shells.

In a sentence in bold type, underlined and with capitalisation, Dr Luntz says that Israeli spokesmen or political leaders must never, ever justify “the deliberate slaughter of innocent women and children” and they must aggressively challenge those who accuse Israel of such a crime. Israeli spokesmen struggled to be true to this prescription when 16 Palestinians were killed in a UN shelter in Gaza last Thursday.

There is a list of words and phrases to be used and a list of those to be avoided. Schmaltz is at a premium: “The best way, the only way, to achieve lasting peace is to achieve mutual respect.” Above all, Israel’s desire for peace with the Palestinians should be emphasised at all times because this what Americans overwhelmingly want to happen. But any pressure on Israel to actually make peace can be reduced by saying “one step at a time, one day at a time”, which will be accepted as “a commonsense approach to the land-for-peace equation”.

Dr Luntz cites as an example of an “effective Israeli sound bite” one which reads: “I particularly want to reach out to Palestinian mothers who have lost their children. No parent should have to bury their child.”

The study admits that the Israeli government does not really want a two-state solution, but says this should be masked because 78 per cent of Americans do. Hopes for the economic betterment of Palestinians should be emphasised.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is quoted with approval for saying that it is “time for someone to ask Hamas: what exactly are YOU doing to bring prosperity to your people”. The hypocrisy of this beggars belief: it is the seven-year-old Israeli economic siege that has reduced the Gaza to poverty and misery.

On every occasion, the presentation of events by Israeli spokesmen is geared to giving Americans and Europeans the impression that Israel wants peace with the Palestinians and is prepared to compromise to achieve this, when all the evidence is that it does not. Though it was not intended as such, few more revealing studies have been written about modern Israel in times of war and peace.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/28/how-israel-spins-war-crimes/
 
Last edited:
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#46
True, but not exactly. It also takes the one with the power and the guns to choose they want to stop it. If the ones with the strong military goes against a toy military, and chooses to take more lands and build settlements and create a Hamas to divide them, etc, the other side has no chance.

People who use their imaginary god and their religion to justify their actions, be it Islamic republic or Israeli's right (who controls the government) this is the mess you end up with.

Then you get people from Canada, US, Africa, etc who fly there and get benefits and subsidary houses in the settlements and say god gave it to them. And willing to go kill the people who have lived there for generations, kick them out and build more settlements. that is the problem.

There is going to be no end to this conflict as long as the extremist on BOTH SIDE are the ones with the strongest voice.

Stop the finger pointing and put aside the prejudice and the sense of entitlements if you want a solution.
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#47
Even Arabs don't want to have anything to do with Hamas and PLO. Do you realize Gaza is Egyptian land? Israel went back to pre 1967 borders but did Egypt claim the territory it lost? No. Isn't that curious? They took one look at the place and said keep it. Seeing what Hamas has done they were smart. And all this talk about Israel creating Hamas is really silly. Although, I must admit there is some truth to that. The cements bags Hamas has used to build the tunnels did come from Israel. See, hamash naghshast.
 

shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
#48
True, but not exactly. It also takes the one with the power and the guns to choose they want to stop it. If the ones with the strong military goes against a toy military, and chooses to take more lands and build settlements and create a Hamas to divide them, etc, the other side has no chance.

People who use their imaginary god and their religion to justify their actions, be it Islamic republic or Israeli's right (who controls the government) this is the mess you end up with.

Then you get people from Canada, US, Africa, etc who fly there and get benefits and subsidary houses in the settlements and say god gave it to them. And willing to go kill the people who have lived there for generations, kick them out and build more settlements. that is the problem.
With all due respect my friend, you and your way of the thinking, your extreme hate and sense of righteousness, your extreme views of the events in the expense of ignoring history and facts and even making up facts as you go along and ... are why the KILLINGS are continuing in this region and will not stop.

People like you are the reason why Hammas is in power or Netanyahu is in power ....

I have friends like you on both side of the conflict, Arabs and Jews who are just like you and are BLINDED by Hate and are not even willing to except and understand the history and dynamic of the region.

It is sad for Palestinians and Israeli people because your Hate and the hate of Jew counterparts on the other side of the conflict is costing lives everyday and prolonging the war and the pain and sufferings on BOTH SIDE.
 
#49
Zed e Engelab, I understand the frustration but please understand the Israelis doing what they are doing and forcing America to support their actions enables Iranian fascist government and other arabic to get the syampthy of their base supporters and control them. It does not do well for Iran. Even 1978 revolution was effected by it.

It also ties up the US government hand as they cant tell others not kill and oppress when they support a government that does it. The Israeli conflict effect the entire middle east if not the rest of the world as openly makes the US look bad and enables fascists to use it as an excuse.
lordofmordor jan, Agha why are you passing the buck man ! as they say in IRAN "shoma na sare piyazi va na tah piyaz" in this whole thing as an Iranian. And blaming Israel for everything including what happen to Iran in 79. Okay if you are so concerned about Iran and what they did then, why is it that you never talked about it nor mentioned anything till this !!!!! Agha, as they say, "kaase dagh tar as aaashi"
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#50
Shahinc I am by far pro-Israel and not at all pro-Palastinian. This is how I would explain my view (if talking about the crimes on one side regardless of who they are, does not make you a hater or on the other side):

You don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.





With all due respect my friend, you and your way of the thinking, your extreme hate and sense of righteousness, your extreme views of the events in the expense of ignoring history and facts and even making up facts as you go along and ... are why the KILLINGS are continuing in this region and will not stop.

People like you are the reason why Hammas is in power or Netanyahu is in power ....

I have friends like you on both side of the conflict, Arabs and Jews who are just like you and are BLINDED by Hate and are not even willing to except and understand the history and dynamic of the region.

It is sad for Palestinians and Israeli people because your Hate and the hate of Jew counterparts on the other side of the conflict is costing lives everyday and prolonging the war and the pain and sufferings on BOTH SIDE.
 
#51
lordofmordor jan, here is a good one for you, lets see how much you can do with this one !!!!


سازمان عفو بین الملل (امنستی اینترنشنال): صبا آذرپیک، یک زندانی سیاسی است، و اکنون در سلول انفرادی، و در بی خبری کامل به سر می برد.
___________________
روزنامه نگار ایرانی، خانم صبا آذرپیک، از بیست و هشتم ماه می، بیش از دو ماه است که در سلول انفرادی نگه داری می شود، محل نگه داری او مشخص نیست، و این باعث شده که نگرانی ها درباره احتمال شکنجه او افزایش یابد، او یک زندانی سیاسی است.
 
Oct 16, 2002
39,533
1,513
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#52
It's worth noting that despite what the world wants to believe, the collective mentality among both Israelis and Palestinians is one of strong advocacy for "no compromise". That's not necessarily 'extremism' but a defiance of the peace-seeking nature most humans want to associate the average population of both sides with.

There is no politician or leader on either side that could gather up enough votes/support if their topmost priority lacks the 'no compromise' ingredient.

There is no end to this.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#53
Thank you Zed Engelab. That is horrible.

lordofmordor jan, here is a good one for you, lets see how much you can do with this one !!!!


سازمان عفو بین الملل (امنستی اینترنشنال): صبا آذرپیک، یک زندانی سیاسی است، و اکنون در سلول انفرادی، و در بی خبری کامل به سر می برد.
___________________
روزنامه نگار ایرانی، خانم صبا آذرپیک، از بیست و هشتم ماه می، بیش از دو ماه است که در سلول انفرادی نگه داری می شود، محل نگه داری او مشخص نیست، و این باعث شده که نگرانی ها درباره احتمال شکنجه او افزایش یابد، او یک زندانی سیاسی است.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#54
All conflicts comes to some kind of end at some point. But what the result is will be important. Will we see an end to this conflict in a way that Hamas gets destroyed and 2 state lives next to each other? Will we see the end of Hamas or conflict continues and we see worst than Hamas there. Here is one solution I see. Stop and move the settlements and reach out to Abbas. Take the blockage of the Gaza away but only to military stuff. Put West bank military around the gaza to stop hamas. Boom, zoom, end of Hamas.

It's worth noting that despite what the world wants to believe, the collective mentality among both Israelis and Palestinians is one of strong advocacy for "no compromise". That's not necessarily 'extremism' but a defiance of the peace-seeking nature most humans want to associate the average population of both sides with.

There is no politician or leader on either side that could gather up enough votes/support if their topmost priority lacks the 'no compromise' ingredient.

There is no end to this.
 
Oct 16, 2002
39,533
1,513
DarvAze DoolAb
www.iransportspress.com
#55
All conflicts comes to some kind of end at some point. But what the result is will be important. Will we see an end to this conflict in a way that Hamas gets destroyed and 2 state lives next to each other? Will we see the end of Hamas or conflict continues and we see worst than Hamas there. Here is one solution I see. Stop and move the settlements and reach out to Abbas. Take the blockage of the Gaza away but only to military stuff. Put West bank military around the gaza to stop hamas. Boom, zoom, end of Hamas.
You're either a simpleton or write like one.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#60
The massacre on Palastinians have happend many times before. Nothing gets done as US always vetos and Israel gets away with it.

Only thing is Israel does not have many friends anymore and will be pressured to choose between being an occupier, building more settlements and taking more lands away or make peace and join the international force.

I dont know how much longer UN can stand around and see its people and people it deems protected get killed in occupied lands.