Why Karbala?

[footballeirani]

Why are Shiite Iranians so obsessed with karbala? For example when Ali was killed by Moljam...thats like a day that comes and goes. They mourn his death for a day and its over.

But as for Karbala you have a month of mourning, several holidays, wear black shirts, and beat yourself up for it.

Or is going to Karbala > going to Najaf? Or going to Karbala > visiting the tomb of Mohammad?

This is a bit confusing for me. Way too much obsession is going on.

 

[Fatso]

I think it is the manner of the slaughter of people at Karbala that makes people mourn as much as they do.
I know everyone here doesn't agree ideologically but I think also because the Shia-Sunni split really was finalized with this event, Shias consider it very important to mark.

 

[kambujiyeh]

Why are Shiite Iranians so obsessed with karbala? For example when Ali was killed by Moljam...thats like a day that comes and goes. They mourn his death for a day and its over.

But as for Karbala you have a month of mourning, several holidays, wear black shirts, and beat yourself up for it.

Or is going to Karbala > going to Najaf? Or going to Karbala > visiting the tomb of Mohammad?

This is a bit confusing for me. Way too much obsession is going on.

If you are really looking for an answer to this question (at least one that would make sense, you are going to be in for a long ride )

 

[footballeirani]

I think it is the manner of the slaughter of people at Karbala that makes people mourn as much as they do.
I know everyone here doesn't agree ideologically but I think also because the Shia-Sunni split really was finalized with this event, Shias consider it very important to mark.

Well as I understand it there was a battle that took place. Hussein was given the option of turning back but he did not and decided to fight on with his immediate family and friends. He did not have to fight this war. His side apparently killed more than their own number.

But still I am not sure if that grants for a month of mourning and all the traditions that come with it. Inghadr ke Iranian shiites ya hossein mikonand ya khoda nemikonand. Ya rasool nemikonand. I think thats more like worshipping a human to be honest.

I understand where some shiites come from by saying Ali was the intended one to follow Mohammad, but when I look at Sunnis, I feel like they are following a more pure form of Islam.

 

[Fatso]

Well as I understand it there was a battle that took place. Hussein was given the option of turning back but he did not and decided to fight on with his immediate family and friends. He did not have to fight this war. His side apparently killed more than their own number.

But still I am not sure if that grants for a month of mourning and all the traditions that come with it. Inghadr ke Iranian shiites ya hossein mikonand ya khoda nemikonand. Ya rasool nemikonand. I think thats more like worshipping a human to be honest.

I understand where some shiites come from by saying Ali was the intended one to follow Mohammad, but when I look at Sunnis, I feel like they are following a more pure form of Islam.

Who told you the story? Some Sunni guy? He had no choice to turn back. He was headed to Kufa, the Kurfians betrayed him, he was surrounded, they killed some of his family and he eventually fought Yazid's army. And I don't think they were able to kill that many. It was 72 versus roughly 10,000. I think the whole point of the story for Shias is that you shouldn't give up what you believe in.
Yes Hossein was allowed to leave, but only if he gave up his right to be the leader of the Muslim community, to accept Yazid as his leader and to not criticize the Ummayids. He wasn't willing to accept this and would rather die.
I'm not very well-versed on the fine details so. I am sure some other members can explain much better and more clearly.

 

[ashtar]

Why are Shiite Iranians so obsessed with karbala? For example when Ali was killed by Moljam...thats like a day that comes and goes. They mourn his death for a day and its over.

But as for Karbala you have a month of mourning, several holidays, wear black shirts, and beat yourself up for it.

Or is going to Karbala > going to Najaf? Or going to Karbala > visiting the tomb of Mohammad?

This is a bit confusing for me. Way too much obsession is going on.

I agree that some of the ceremonies associated with commemorating the event are overboard but I don't think the "obsession" with the character of Imam Hossein and the event itself is unwarranted.

One should keep in mind that many of the ceremonial acts in commemorating Ashura are either borrowed from the Christians or from the earlier non-Muslim Persians. For example, self mutilation (such as "ghammeh zani "or "zanjir zani"), carrying heavy loads such as "alam" or "kotal" are practices that were borrowed and copied from Christians who used to commemorate Jesus’ crucifiction.


Christian Flagrum (used by Christians to whip oneself (self-flagellation) long before Iranian Shiites decided to practice it to morn Imam Hussein):

Practice of carrying a cross practiced by Christians long before Shiites adopted similar practice:

Other practices such as "tazeih khani" or "noheh khani" were practiced by non-Muslim Persians long before the event of Karbala but the practice was adopted to commemorate the event later on.

However, the obsession with the event itself IMO is not only not unwarranted but is rather something that transcends all religions and cultures and is an idea and an ideal that is celebrated and respected by all humans of different cultures, races, creeds and beliefs.

However, IMO there are several distinctions with the event of Karbala that separate it and put it in a different category than other "similar" historical events:

1) The event of Karbala entails the universally loved story of the righteous underdog standing up to the unjust and tyrannical power.

2) It entails the ultimate ideal of dying free and with honor instead of living with injustice and without honor.

3) Unlike many fictional characters and stories here is a fairly well documented historical event with real characters and real events.

4) The event is recent enough to give it a feel of reality and possibility unlike many similar stories that supposedly happened so long ago and such distant areas that make them sound more like fairy tale stories as opposed to a real event.

5) Unlike similar stories which end with the hero's death and no significant consequence to the tyrant, the event of Karbala is what set the stage for the fall of the Umayyad and later on became a practical example for the Shiites as a way of life and a way of resisting various forms of injustice.

6) The event of Karbala also contains another universally loved concept of unconditional loyalty and brotherhood whereby true friends give up their most prized and ultimate possession, i.e. their lives till the end for their beliefs and in support of their leader.

7) Unlike similar stories where the main hero asks his followers for the ultimate sacrifice in the event of Karbala the main hero of the story sacrifices his own beloved son, family and his own life instead of sitting in some corner and asking his followers to do the sacrifice.

8) Finally in this event the main hero is not some no name rag tag vigilante who has nothing to lose and thus decides to stand up the tyrannical leader. Instead here the main hero is the "prince", the grandson of The Prophet, who gives up his own life for the justice and welfare of the no name rag tags who are not willing to stand up for themselves.

It is partly because of the above reasons that the Shiites (and indeed anyone familiar with the event of Karbala) becomes fascinated and obsessed with the event and its characters. The unconditional loyalty of someone like Hazrat Abbas, the open mindedness and freedom of thought of someone like Hurr, the honor and bravery of Imam Hossein are characters that most people dream of and aspire for but most never see or experience even a glimpse of it in their life time.

 

[Javeed]

Because of my lack of knowledge and also because I consider it a personal matter, I never get into religion discussion. But I consider my question a history question more than religion one.

I always wonder what Imam Hossein has done that Jallaldin Kharazmshah has not done?

 

[ashtar]

Because of my lack of knowledge and also because I consider it a personal matter, I never get into religion discussion. But I consider my question a history question more than religion one.

I always wonder what Imam Hossein has done that Jallaldin Kharazmshah has not done?

By all historical accounts Jalaludin Kharazam Shah was an extremely brave fighter. But again, referring to the points I made above, Imam Hossein and the event of Karbala go beyond mere bravery in the field of battle or a King or Prince or general fighting bravely against the invading army.

The message of Hossein is not just fighting bravely in the battle field but also standing up to the injustice against all odds. As I said, it is also the story of unconditional loyalty and sacrifice. And more importantly the consequences of his action and the movement that it was able to create where other brave acts (like that of Jalaludin) were unable to create.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Because of my lack of knowledge and also because I consider it a personal matter, I never get into religion discussion. But I consider my question a history question more than religion one.

I always wonder what Imam Hossein has done that Jallaldin Kharazmshah has not done?

The answer is hero worship. Similar to the way Christians worship Jesus. Did you not see or hear of the passion of Christ? In their version of the story, they make it out as if Jesus' suffering is so uniquely great. In reality, even if it were true, which is not, that suffering is no greater than millions of people who have been tortured to death all around the world at the hands of tyrants. In fact such characterization is an insult to millions of innocent people who have been similarly tortured at the hands of tyrants all around the world. But people like heroes. Do you see the masses going to see some unknown character? No, it must be the same star over and over which is built up to this mythical figure. Same concept, within a religious context. Hossein may have very well been an honest freedom loving brave figure who stood up to tyrants and liars for truth and freedom. Disputing that is not my point here. To turn the event into mythical proportions and Hossein into an exclusive worshiped hero is the point. The dynamics at work is the same as that of Jesus and also Hollywood.

 

[ashtar]

The answer is hero worship. Similar to the way Christians worship Jesus. Did you not see or hear of the passion of Christ? In their version of the story, they make it out as if Jesus' suffering is so uniquely great. In reality, even if it were true, which is not, that suffering is no greater than millions of people who have been tortured to death all around the world at the hands of tyrants. In fact such characterization is an insult to millions of innocent people who have been similarly tortured at the hands of tyrants all around the world. But people like heroes. Do you see the masses going to see some unknown character? No, it must be the same star over and over which is built up to this mythical figure. Same concept, within a religious context. Hossein may have very well been an honest freedom loving brave figure who stood up to tyrants and liars for truth and freedom. Disputing that is not my point here. To turn the event into mythical proportions and Hossein into an exclusive worshiped hero is the point. The dynamics at work is the same as that of Jesus and also Hollywood.

I agree that part of it (mostly the ceremonial practices) is the culture of hero-worship but again I reiterate that it is the consequences of the action that separate one historical figure from another (in this case Imam Hossein from the many other brave souls who may have stood up to the tyrants of their time).

Commemorating and crediting Imam Hossein or Jesus are no different than commemorating/crediting someone like Martin Luther King, or Mandela or Gandhi. Surely before and after Dr. King there were many people who fought for black/civil rights in US and were tortured and treated far worse than Dr. King. But to commemorate and credit Martin Luther King with the civil rights movement in US is neither to ignore the contributions of others nor to belittle their hardship and suffering. However, for whatever reason the majority of people can point to the consequences of the actions of one man, namely Dr. King, in a particular moment in history as the turning point in the civil rights movement in the US. The same is true with Mandela, Gandhi and other great historical figures.

The recognition and commemoration of these figures does not happen in mere vacuum. It is not as though a significant number of people suddenly decide to make a hero out of a person and that's how they become famous or revered.

Hero worship existed in places like Iran long before Islam. As I mentioned, ceremonies like "tazieh khani", "rozeh khani" and such existed long before with main characters being mythical figures like Rostam, Sohrab, or Seeyavash. However, the ceremonies dedicated to these characters were soon and easily overshadowed by the story of Karbala and Imam Hossein because of the profound and long lasting consequences of this particular event compared to the fictional stories of the past.

And the story of Imam Hossein like other religious stories is unique in that it transcends nationality and artificial borders. The story of someone like Kharazm Shah might be important to the Iranians but his popularity stops at the Iranian borders just as the popularity of someone like William Wallace (despite popular Hollywood movie Braveheart) stops at the borders of Scotland.

 

[Motori]

History claims Emam Hossein was traveling from Medina to Koofeh in order to join his and his father's supporters for what ever reason.
Looking at the map karbala is situated well north of Koofah, meaning if you start from medina traveling toward karbala you will reach Koofeh first. Why did they end up in karbala? Lost may be?

 

[footballeirani]

Thanks Ashtar for the response. That does make sense.

But I want to add that the event of sacrifice and giving up everything you have including your life to battle injustice does carry a very powerful message and as there were 12 Imams, only one attempted it. Which warrants for the question of when and why?

Am I right that Zeinab or others were not crying when they brought Husssein's head to Kufa? But some of the citizens of Kufa started crying over the matter?

Makes me wonder about those who are crying for a month for Hussein. If you take a journey back in time, would they be living in Kufa or accompaying Hussein in his deed.

 

[Motori]

Thanks Ashtar for the response. That does make sense.

But I want to add that the event of sacrifice and giving up everything you have including your life to battle injustice does carry a very powerful message and as there were 12 Imams, only one attempted it. Which warrants for the question of when and why?

Am I right that Zeinab or others were not crying when they brought Husssein's head to Kufa? But some of the citizens of Kufa started crying over the matter?

Makes me wonder about those who are crying for a month for Hussein. If you take a journey back in time, would they be living in Kufa or accompaying Hussein in his deed.

Emam Hussein would definitely be under house arrest......:--wink:

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Emam Hussein would definitely be under house arrest......:--wink:

They would decapitate Emam Hussein's head over and over again for telling them that they have become tyrants and slaves and for blaspheming against the imaginary figure they have made of Emam Hossein to worship.

 

[Motori]

They would decapitate Emam Hussein's head over and over again for telling them that they have become tyrants and slaves and for blaspheming against the imaginary figure they have made of Emam Hossein to worship.

F.P jAn,
Your statement is not far fetched at all. This tyrant regime is doing exactley what Emam Hussein was supposedly fighting against.
Being Prophet's grandson I just thought they might cut him some slack, at other hand akhoonds have no "sharm" what so ever.

 

[Iranpaak]

History claims Emam Hossein was traveling from Medina to Koofeh in order to join his and his father's supporters for what ever reason.
Looking at the map karbala is situated well north of Koofah, meaning if you start from medina traveling toward karbala you will reach Koofeh first. Why did they end up in karbala? Lost may be?

Agha Rasoul, based on the "history", before Imam Hossein reached Koffeh, Yazid's army headed by Hurr, prevented him from going toward the city of Koffeh, or back to Median. Imam Hossein had no choice except to go to Karballa.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

F.P jAn,
Your statement is not far fetched at all. This tyrant regime is doing exactley what Emam Hussein was supposedly fighting against.
Being Prophet's grandson I just thought they might cut him some slack, at other hand akhoonds have no "sharm" what so ever.

Motori jaan, I remember I heard in one of the namaaz Jom'e sermons, one of these akhoonds was saying that, we would suspend namaaz if WE thought that it would help Islam. Who do you think they worship? I wish I could find the tape or that quote. Grandson? Hell they will make up some story similar to Jame' zahr after Khomeini had led hundreds of thousands of Iranians to their death, while sitting in Jamaaraan.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Ashtar, I will just respond to the most important point here. God willing later I may respond to other parts.

Hero worship existed in places like Iran long before Islam. As I mentioned, ceremonies like "tazieh khani", "rozeh khani" and such existed long before with main characters being mythical figures like Rostam, Sohrab, or Seeyavash….

Yes. And Islam is against it. Worship no one and nothing but God alone: that is the entire point of religion, the only religion from God ever. Everything else is simply in support of this one point. If you violate this to support other parts of religion, you are not just practicing a different religion but you are in absolute opposition to God’s one and only religion.

Hossein has long passed away from this world. He has no clue what is going on earth nor has the slightest power to hurt or help anyone. Whatever good he did, he alone benefits from it. Whatever bad he did, it is only to his own detriment. God, the One creator of the world alone, is the helper and observer over all. If one is to benefit from anything related to Hossein is to act upon the same righteous path that conforms to the Quran. Do not support tyranny. Do not support corruption. Do not support lies, cheating, and oppression. Stand up for freedom and truth. And whatever you do never worship any idols.

To point out that I do not mean to single out Shia’s (as if for example Sunni’s do not have their own idols, so do atheists.) I wanted to quote this verse from the New Testament that is in everyone’s hand.

18A certain ruler asked him [Jesus], "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'[b]"

Can you imagine the sorry state of Christians and what they have made of Jesus only after his death to worship?

 

[Iranpaak]

Hossein has long passed away from this world. He has no clue what is going on earth nor has the slightest power to hurt or help anyone. Whatever good he did, he alone benefits from it. Whatever bad he did, it is only to his own detriment. God, the One creator of the world alone, is the helper and observer over all. If one is to benefit from anything related to Hossein is to act upon the same righteous path that conforms to the Quran. Do not support tyranny. Do not support corruption. Do not support lies, cheating, and oppression. Stand up for freedom and truth. And whatever you do never worship any idols.

FP Jan,While I am in full agreement with you regarding idol woreship, I have a slightly different take on the matter. IMHO, what Hossein taught others, is what you said at the end of your statement (do not support, or give up to tyranny, do not support oppression, lies and cheating) even if it costs you dearly. Although the message might have been lost to many, he still was (and is) a role model for others for what he stood for. Therefore, it benefited those who paid attention to the real message he sent by his ulimate sacrifice.
I do beleive that the event of Karbala was kept alive by some during centuries of oppersive times, to keep that message and lesson alive, and to fight tyranny.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

FP Jan,While I am in full agreement with you regarding idol woreship, I have a slightly different take on the matter. IMHO, what Hossein taught others, is what you said at the end of your statement (do not support, or give up to tyranny, do not support oppression, lies and cheating) even if it costs you dearly. Although the message might have been lost to many, he still was (and is) a role model for others for what he stood for. Therefore, it benefited those who paid attention to the real message he sent by his ulimate sacrifice.
I do beleive that the event of Karbala was kept alive by some during centuries of oppersive times, to keep that message and lesson alive, and to fight tyranny.

Iranpaak jaan, we are probably in agreement. But to be perfectly clear, note the wording you chose.

1) It is the message itself that may be of benefit not Hossein himself. Hossein himself cannot benefit anyone.

2) That message is of no benefit unless a person or a community actually enacts it. It is of no use to just know the message and boast about knowing the message. And when a person or a community acts upon it only that individual or that community benefits.

Further the secondary points are:

3) that message is not unique to Hossein. He did not invent it. Hossein simply tried to follow the word of God in the Quran which is the same as all other prior scriptures and what many other people know instinctively through the instinct placed in them by their Creator. God is credited for the message not Hossein.

4) Hossein may be a role model. However, he is not "the" role model, but simply "a" role model. There may be many role models a person may have. Most importantly, he is not an absolute or perfect role model. He may be a role model in some specific aspect, many others may also be a role model in that aspect. Further he falls short in other aspects. He is not God but a fallible human being.

For example, some may choose say Abraham as a symbol of standing up to tyranny or some may choose Moses yet others George Washington. Or if you wanted to have a role model for how to approach physical sciences you may choose Avecina or Newton or Niel Bohr, etc.

If you note, every single of these principles are in truth violated in the current practices. In fact the current practices have many more much more serious offenses. I will name just one here:

This ritual is carried out in the name of religion. It is not like Nowrouz which is simply a cultural celebration. In other words it is a ritual by which a person identifies himself as a Muslim, a person who is following God's religion. This is a gross, gross offense. The truth of the matter is that in reality it exposes idol worship either with awareness or ignorance.

God specifically instructs in the strongest possible language that a person who seeks to make a distinction between God's messengers is not only not a submitter to God alone (a muslim) but is in truth a disbeliever. One is not to ritually commemorate Muhammad. In such a case, when was the last time you commemorated Moses? Or the countless other messengers that God says He has not named for us? This is because such practice in truth only reveals prejudice and a wish to worship "your own." If you wish to do anything follow their message. Similarly such commemoration of Hussein in the name of religion is simply a practice in idolatry. Further, God instructs us not to invent religious rituals beyond that specified in the Quran. And there is more.