Will Egyptians become the 1st country to successfully reject Islamism?!

[khodam]

That does not surprise me. CNN, Closet religious Secular Iranian, Eslahtalabs and IR supporters have been quite united on their reaction to the events of Egypt.
The only thing that could make this marriage between these groups more strange is if MKO would join in as well

I think the combination of courageous Iranian revolutionary and monarchist expats, Assad, ultra-conservative Egyptian Salafis, Saudi Wahabis, and Persian Gulf Sheiks as bedfellows is far more entertaining

 

[khodam]

Egyptian Soldiers Said to Kill at Least 43

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/world/middleeast/egypt.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&hp

Excerpts:

[Egyptian soldiers opened fire on hundreds of supporters of ousted President Mohamed Morsi early Monday as they were praying before dawn outside the facility where he is believed to be detained, dozens of witnesses said.]


[Dozens of Islamists who had gathered to hold a vigil for Mr. Morsi denied there was any provocation for the attack. Two bystanders who had supported Mr. Morsi’s ouster said that the demonstrators were unarmed and ran in terror as the attack began.]


[But Egyptian state television showed film of a pro-Morsi protester firing what appeared to be a homemade handgun at advancing soldiers from behind a corner about 250 yards away. The footage was in daylight, hours after the initial attack began.

A witness who lived nearby said he saw two men with similar weapons among the protesters.

The protesters, witnesses and video footage all appeared to portray the pro-Morsi demonstrators as attempting to fight back against the soldiers by throwing rocks.]

[There were pools of blood on the pavement. Some of the blood and bullet holes were hundreds of yards from the walls of the facility’s guard house, suggesting that the soldiers continued firing as the demonstrators fled.]


[Ibrahim el-Sheikh, a neighbor, said the police officer, Mohamed el-Mesairy, was killed by military fire. The officer was hiding in a car in the parking lot of a building in a side street that the Morsi supporters were using for shelter. Video footage taken from a window above showed gunfire from the advancing soldiers hitting the car.

Mr. Sheikh, who signed a petition and joined protests for Mr. Morsi’s ouster, said he and others carried the officer’s body out of his car. “He did not have a head any more,” he said.]


[Although by morning some people carried sticks or makeshift clubs, all said that the demonstrators were unarmed. Mr. Sheikh and another neighbor who opposed Mr. Morsi and supported his ouster said the same.]

 

[khodam]

In the latest developments, it appears that the always peaceful and democracy loving Islamists have picked up guns, attacked the army and tried to storm the compound where Morsi's being held. Army has fired back and 42 people have been killed...

But these must be mercenaries because the army just protects people, and also we already established that Islamism was completely rejected in Egypt!!

Isn't it funny how undemocratic youth, seculars and moderate Muslims protested peacefully for months, but the democracy loving Islamists resorted to arms and violence within a week?!

How undemocratic of them to get shot! What were they thinking?

There is no question that Islamists in Egypt are violent and undemocratic, which is why keeping them engaged in democratization was essential. Also, while for weeks people demonstrated against Morsi, these Islamists did not feel the need to confront them on the streets. But as soon as the Islamists demonstrated, Morsi opponents felt they need to have a presence nearby. I don't think that was a good idea by them.

 

[masoudA]

Khodam jaan
I don't blame you for still getting at least some of your info from NY Times.......because if you were living in USA you would have long recognized how the ridiculous the role of media has become here......I suggest following the Canadian Sources these days, follow the Chinease,.....the Germans,........I don't know anyone but the Soros controlled mass joke of a media. Let me give you the full picture - Here is what we know is heppening in Egypt:
.....people, especially the youth and the educated, have recognized how their country is being pushed towrads an ISlamic State.....they have the protection of the Army and are out in the streets. Hundreds of thousands of them come out to protest and - there are also Morsi supporters (The Egyptian Version of Sandis Crowd) who also hold protets attending by hundreds of people likes of whom we know well......

Now here is what msn, abc, nbc, cbs, cnn, ny times, wash post,........are collectively telling Americans:
Millions are protesting in Egypt for and against Morsi!!! Egypt is headed towards civil war..........the Army has arrested hundreds of Islamists from the Morsi camp.....

For those of us who live in America and see the role of the media......it is sickening.

BTW -
after a few days of seemingly staying neutral......and after observing some of the slogans by the anti Morsi camp (identifying Obama as part of the problem), Obama is now openly supporting the Brotherhood!!! He has not called the situation a Military Coup yet......which allows the Army to still get USA $, but that does not mean he will not do it in the upcoming days or will not use the funds as a tool to pressure the Army. Meanwhile - it is also obvious the Soros gang (The international Crisis Management group) wants Al Baradei as a potential replacement to Mosri.......I hope the people and the Army don't let this monkey take over.....he would not do anything for Egypt.

 

[shahinc]

I think the combination of courageous Iranian revolutionary and monarchist expats, Assad, ultra-conservative Egyptian Salafis, Saudi Wahabis, and Persian Gulf Sheiks as bedfellows is far more entertaining

Monarchist expats: Not long ago the Iranian youth in the streets were also called monarchist by IR. It is nice to see the trend is repeating itself ...

Iranian revolutionaries: That is the title your new comrades in Sepah have been carrying so proudly the past 30 years. I don't think they will be so happy with you throwing that around like that. I think they have a patent on it. Ask them on your next , Hambastegi/Peyvastegi meeting.

Saudi Wahabis: It seems like you have started to read Keyhan. Shariatmadari's boys used the exact same "term" to refer to MILLION of Egyptians in the street.

Egyptian Salafis: I did not hear this one before.Is that what the memo from IR calls the majority secular Egyptians who came to street demanding the end to the birth of another Islamist fasict state in the region ?
Good to know ...

At the end, I guess there are some differences between the official accounts of who those people in the streets are from CNN and IR.

Thanks for keeping us updated with the new stand of IR toward Egypt.

 

[shahinc]

Not as ridiculous as ridiculing the choice of 72% of a nation because we disagree with them.

This I agree with 100% and I also agree with what our democratically elected president, the choice of 72% of the nation said about this election:


President Dr.Rohani:

مردم در این انتخابات خواستند بگویند که ما روحانیت را ورای مسائل سیاسی می***بینیم و آنها را اُمنا الرُسل می***بینیم.

 

[khodam]

Monarchist expats: Not long ago the Iranian youth in the streets were also called monarchist by IR. It is nice to see the trend is repeating itself ...

Iranian revolutionaries: That is the title your new comrades in Sepah have been carrying so proudly the past 30 years. I don't think they will be so happy with you throwing that around like that. I think they have a patent on it. Ask them on your next , Hambastegi/Peyvastegi meeting.

Saudi Wahabis: It seems like you have started to read Keyhan. Shariatmadari's boys used the exact same "term" to refer to MILLION of Egyptians in the street.

Egyptian Salafis: I did not hear this one before.Is that what the memo from IR calls the majority secular Egyptians who came to street demanding the end to the birth of another Islamist fasict state in the region ?
Good to know ...

At the end, I guess there are some differences between the official accounts of who those people in the streets are from CNN and IR.

Thanks for keeping us updated with the new stand of IR toward Egypt.

I think you should work on your reading comprehension! Who's talking about Egyptian protestors? Your post was about the similarity in reaction of other groups of people to removal of Morsi, and my post similarly was about the strange alignment of those reactions among some other groups. No one is disputing that those who protested Morsi were from different political groups.

Let me spell it out for you. Here on ISP we have monarchists and other non-reform minded anti-IR folks (whom I called revolutionary) alike cheering Morsi's removal. Saudis and Gulf states have publicly welcomed Morsi's removal. Assad obviously is happy. Salafis are those ultra-Islamists represented by the Nour party who until today were part of the anti-Morsi coalition (and who by the way, had about a quarter of the vote in parliamentary elections).

You should work on your reading skills. It's not fun if I have to explain such basics

 

[khodam]

This I agree with 100% and I also agree with what our democratically elected president, the choice of 72% of the nation said about this election:


President Dr.Rohani:

مردم در این انتخابات خواستند بگویند که ما روحانیت را ورای مسائل سیاسی می***بینیم و آنها را اُمنا الرُسل می***بینیم.

I think you should frame and put that above your bed

 

[shahinc]

I think you should frame and put that above your bed

It is a quote from your elected president and not mine It will look much better in your bedroom.

 

[khodam]

It is a quote from your elected president and not mine It will look much better in your bedroom.

How do you know I haven't already framed it? :yohoo:

 

[shahinc]

I think you should work on your reading comprehension! Who's talking about Egyptian protestors?

LOL, Once again, start by making things personal

If anything you should work on yours. Read it again, you will get it.

Your post was about the similarity in reaction of other groups of people to removal of Morsi, and my post similarly was about the strange alignment of those reactions among some other groups. No one is disputing that those who protested Morsi were from different political groups.

And I just mentioned how you categorizing the people who supported the removal of Morsy ( Other groups ) looks exactly the same as how IR categorized them.

Let me spell it out for you. Here on ISP we have monarchists and other non-reform minded anti-IR folks (whom I called revolutionary) alike cheering Morsi's removal.

LOL, no need for you to Spell anything.

We all know who here supports the "Will of secular Egyptians" and who is losing sleep over the removal of Morsy and the defeat of Islamic fascism in the region.
At some point, you have to start to think that you are not the smarter than everyone else around here and people can see what you are doing here

You should work on your reading skills. It's not fun if I have to explain such basics

HAHAHA, if I were you, I would do that myself before preaching to others .Believe me it is not fun seeing your get angry like this embarrass yourself.

 

[shahinc]

How do you know I haven't already framed it? :yohoo:

Oh, you rushed to framing it Be patient my dear friend.

There will be many more quotes from Dr.Rohani in future, much juicers ones which have to go on your bedroom walls.
Don't worry, I will make sure to remind you of them so you don't miss any.
:2v1:

 

[khodam]

LOL, Once again, start by making things personal

I'm saying some positions with respect to the events in Egypt is similar to Saudis and Salafis and Assad, which is factual, and exactly the same thing you said about others. Then you thanked me for updating you on IR agenda. Who's getting personal here?

At some point, you have to start to think that you are not the smarter than everyone else around here and people can see what you are doing here

Oh you are so outsmarting me here

Believe me it is not fun seeing your get angry like this embarrass yourself.

Speaking of embarrassment ...

That does not surprise me. CNN, Closet religious Secular Iranian, Eslahtalabs and IR supporters have been quite united on their reaction to the events of Egypt.
The only thing that could make this marriage between these groups more strange is if MKO would join in as well

 

[shahinc]

I'm saying some positions with respect to the events in Egypt is similar to Saudis and Salafis and Assad, which is factual,

Factual !!! Based on whose account. Calling everyone else who support the decision of Egyptians, Monarchist expats, Iranian revolutionaries and ... is factual !!!
Right !!!! Based on whose account ? You know what you were trying to do so don't be so Coy about it now.

Your post was as factual as calling the students in street of Iran 4 years ago the elements of MKO and monarchist. Sounds familiar ?

Then you thanked me for updating you on IR agenda. Who's getting personal here?

Personal !!! Nope, just being " factual"

Oh you are so outsmarting me here

Speaking of embarrassment ...

Did I hurt your feeling !!! It is ok, I will stop soon.

 

[Bi-honar]

Didn't you say that military involvement was justified because the majority didn't vote for constitution? You have made that (shaky) argument in this very thread at least half a dozen times. You have argued that military involvement was justified as this was a "democratic coup". Isn't support of the majority one of prerequisites to being democratic?

No. No. No. No. You don't seem to have a good grasp of what I've said in this thread at all.

Everyone understands that. But who is to decide when the way of life needs protecting? Is that judgement up to you, the army head, the people? It's a very simply question, so I will appreciate a simple answer. Who should make that call? People at the ballot box or army head, generals, protestors, you, Obama, who?

That judgement was up to the Egyptian people in association with their army and in any other country it would be the same. It's not up to you or I.

Dude, this is where you are disconnected with the realities in Iran. You believe everyone who votes is fine with having the supreme leader, with letting guardian council filter the candidates, with women being barred from running, with minority rights being ignored. For you, there is no difference between a Khatami or AN presidency while living in Canada, and you outright dismiss any subtantial consequence it may actually have for people living in Iran. Your black-and-white, dismissive attitude towards the absolute majority of the Iranian nation, is the obvious proof of the generational/societal gap. It's absolutely fine that you disagree with them, it is in fact good and healthy that a good chunk of the society disagrees with them, but all that dismissing them as herd, passive, simpleton, lacking understanding in global affairs does is to make you irrelevant as far as Iran is concerned, and that is a pity and a waste.

You're the one who equated people's voting in Iran with their "choice" a few posts back and also in the one below this and now you're telling me that's what I'm doing and therefore I'm disconnected from reality!!! And from a global perspective there's very little difference between a choice in a furthest right candidate in a religious autocracy and far right choice. You are talking about shades of grey in an autocracy, not shades of grey in different styles of governance. That's a global scale and if anything people in Iran are disconnected from this reality. The events in Iran don't define the framework for the rest of the world, rather they are defined within that framework. I don't know why struggle with this simple concept.

Not really, what we have in Iran is not democracy. My future democratic Iran also include your equal participation. The difference is that you have no clue how to get to your future democratic Iran, you offer no roadmap or solutions, you don't lift a finger to materialize your future democratic Iran, you just nag about what the majority has chosen to do, without suggesting an alternative. That's the difference.

I suggested a roadmap. The concept of VF and the Guardian Council need to be removed from the Iranian constitution. That's the very first step and I am refusing to partake in a clown show that does not recognize that. I refuse to walk down the path set down for me by people who do not recognize my aspirations. I refuse to be a bird locked in a cage and lecturing the birds outside on freedom and saying that they don't understand the conditions of the cage. I play dead and when it's time I will break the chains of that cage - you do remember that story from our elementary books, don't you? I don't recall a story about the bird that sang to the tune of the master everyday ever leaving that cage.

Iranian people had a shot in 1906 at democracy but they blew it. It took them half a century to get another shot in 1953 and they blew it again. And the next chance came quarter a century later in 1978, and again the great people of Iran missed that chance miserably. It's rare that a nation gets these many chances in a century, and it's even rarer that a nation screws up so badly so frequently. So you can be cute and ridicule me and three quarter of the nation, but looking back at history we see good reason to believe that having the right people is more important than getting another shot.

This is what puts us in two different camps.

Iranian people had no chance @ democracy because each and everyone of those events was overshadowed and derailed by the clerical class and Islamists. Like I said, having or not having come to terms with that is what puts us in two different camps. Otherwise, there's very little people like you and I, who place smack in in the middle of the political spectrum, from a global perspective, should disagree on. But that's what the clerical class has been so good at - something they learnt from the British - to divide and conquer. To literally pull a dark vale over the face of the population to the point that someone as politically savvy as yourself thinks that you are disagreeing with them by agreeing with them and thinking that you have more in common with what they're suggesting that you do with what I'm suggesting. That's the real pity and the waste.

 

[khodam]

Factual !!! Based on whose account. Calling everyone else who support the decision of Egyptians, Monarchist expats, Iranian revolutionaries and ... is factual !!!
Right !!!! Based on whose account ? You know what you were trying to do so don't be so Coy about it now.

And when I say you need to work on your comprehension skills you think I'm getting personal!!!

When did I say those protestors or their supporters outside Egypt were all Wahabis or Monarchsist? I said Wahabis and those other groups (here on ISP) were also supporting removal of Morsi. Do you really not see the difference?

And it was all meant as a joking response to your joking post. Calm down dude.

 

[shahinc]

And when I say you need to work on your comprehension skills you think I'm getting personal!!!

When did I say those protestors or their supporters outside Egypt were all Wahabis or Monarchsist? I said Wahabis and those other groups (here on ISP) were also supporting removal of Morsi. Do you really not see the difference?

And it was all meant as a joking response to your joking post. Calm down dude.

LOL, and when I tell you you need to stop preaching and just read more carefully , you get all upset
Read my post again and you will get it

As far as a joke goes, I know it was. Lately I read most of your posts like they are jokes so don't worry

 

[masoudA]

You want to know who is in Tahrir Square?

[video=youtube_share;QeDm2PrNV1I]http://youtu.be/QeDm2PrNV1I[/video]

 

[Bi-honar]

You want to know who is in Tahrir Square?

AMAZING Video Massi and thank you sooooooooooo much for sharing. This gives me hope for the whole world! The kid basically touches on most of the issues I have raised in this thread and unbelievable how politically savvy a 12 year old is while some of our hamvatans 3 or 4 times his age are still struggling with the basics about Islamism and democracy. I am now convinced 100% that Egyptians are WAY SMARTER than us as a whole.

 

[Motori]

Why I don’t call it a coup:
Majority of the armed forces of the world including US, Iran and Egypt have the following doctrine:

1- Protect the nation against foreign aggression
2- Protect the Constitution
3- Aid the nation aftermath of a natural disaster

If you to a research on what Morsi has done in span of 1 year then you will realize that Egyptian army is doing its #2 duty.
Morsi took so many unconstitutional steps in such a short of period of time which put the rule of law in grave jeopardy that army had no other choice to step in and stop the islamisation of Egypt.
A president of a nation is responsible for the Executive branch of the Government and the other 2 branches should remain independent and free of the influence of the head of the executive. Morsi already had the Legislative and almost took over the Judiciary as well before the nation got alarmed and took action.

If you remember islamists also got plenty of benches in the parliament and together with Morsi and gang started to manipulate their status and passed laws in favor of themselves and forget about the young democracy which has been created. Why in the world a president should ask the parliament to grant him general immunity and parliament ratify such a law? That is putting the president above the law, meaning unconstitutional, just birth of another dictator.

I agree that majority of Egyptians are against Morsi and MB in general. If you remember Morsi was not the 1st pick of MB, the initial candidate got disqualified and MB rushed to the bin and took out Morsi, he won the election by very small margin and looking at what he has done during the past year it is logical to conclude that he has not been able to add any to his supporting groups, in fact he has only managed to increase the number of opponents.

Morsi started to detain any journalist who published anything against him and if the courts did not convict them he would arrests the judge, just check out and see how many journalists and judges he has put in jail in one year.

Yes Morsi could be prosecuted for his wrong doings through the judiciary branch of the nation, but that branch was almost dismantled and the remaining corrupted by Morsi and gang to a point that Egyptians had no trust on the system. Also impeachment through the Parliament looked like a joke when that Hall was full of his minions passing sharia laws one after another.

The constitution of the nation was in jeopardy and army did its duty to protect the nation from falling into another abyss of dictatorship.