Eid mobarak

[Bache Tehroon]

this whole thread brings some of the hidden elitist views among the members here.
I think it is because most members here have a background that takes them north of Enghlalb Street in Tehran.

...

most people here though just like to feel superior by pointing to that stupid thing people in Iran do.

Feeling guilty ha? It's normal. The 'elitists' are shitting on many of the beliefs our parents, grandparents and relatives indulged in.

Unfortunately for you, the 'elitists' are right and they will remain right for eternity. You're only one ounce of 'honesty' away from becoming an elitist yourself. I'd give it a go if I were you.

 

[Silverton]

No, not because they're Muslim, but because they're doing it in the name of Islam - it's really not that complicated bro. You're letting your sensitivities get in the way of your logic. If you have a problem with what these people are doing and it doesn't jive with your ideals of Islam, then show a reaction to the act or the people who are committing it, not to the people who are reacting to it! You did the exact same thing in the case of the Boston bomber, grasping at anything that would take the focus away from the bomber and instead reacting to people who had an issue with the whole thing... just something to think about and all the more reasons for me to be concerned and happy to see you back on ISP.

And I'll be one of the last people to insult Islam or Muslims, particularly during Ramadan, what is considered a holy month and in fact, I found the thread insensitive and inappropriate on this particular day, nor did I make a comment relating this to Islam in any way, but I only got involved because you threw democracy and secularism under the bus in your reaction to what someone said.

How is doing it in the name of Islam mean that it's from Islam? That is ridiculous. So the war on Iraq and all it's atrocities, where democratic because they were in the name of democracy and removing tyranny. I am not being sensitive at all. I have kept this purely and have referred to primary sources and primary texts. It's people who say "oh, this is what I've known since I was a child" etc. that are being sensitive and non-academic.

All I said was that I cannot be 100% sure that the Boston bombing because it came from an administration/ American government that has lied on a large scale before about MANY things and have pulled off incredibly covert operations of terror. So pardon my RIGHT to be sceptical bout the narrative they say. And btw, they haven't been convicted yet in the court of law, that's an important part of the rule of law that people conveniently forget when they embrace propaganda and have an agenda. I actually went to visit the place of the bombing (a place where respects were paid to those killed and hurt).

Appreciate your respects. But I'd respect and stick up for Bahais, Jews, Secularists etc. if I felt the criticism were unfair and agenda-driven (year-round, during and post-Ramadan ).

 

[Bi-honar]

Esamani jaan, I like your post particularly about looking down on some of our hamvatans to feel superior. Just two corrections:

1 - A cow is a she not a he: "the cow is not allowed any movement because if he does he burn calories."

2 - Sacrifices during Ramadan are not a part of the Iranian culture like Esfand is. In fact, they are not "Iranian" at all, but Islamic traditions. They're no more Iranian than Baptism is Candian for example. An Iranian tradition would be something that All Iranians would practice, regardless of their religion. Nowrouz and Yalda are for example Iranian traditions.

 

[Zob Ahan]

ZA jaan not related but when it comes to multiple units (under 4) properties what does ATE stand for?

Example:

GI (70000)
ATE (40000)
NOI (30000)


now I know that its some kind of cost that determines the net operating income but cannot figure out what this ATE is. And also if this includes all costs such as (Taxes, Insurance, Water, Gas, Trash) and you are left to make payments on the mortgage alone. Any advice would be appreciated.


Thank You

Sorry OP jan I have never heard that acronym before but I would assume the E at the end stands for expense.

 

[ChaharMahal]

2 - Sacrifices during Ramadan are not a part of the Iranian culture like Esfand is. In fact, they are not "Iranian" at all, but Islamic traditions. They're no more Iranian than Baptism is Candian for example. An Iranian tradition would be something that All Iranians would practice, regardless of their religion. Nowrouz and Yalda are for example Iranian traditions.

Bi honar jan, thank your for the correction.

You find me an Arab in Jordan or Egypt that jumps over the Blood of Sheep as if it was the Fire.

Ghorbani thing in Iran like other things islamic have been transformed into something that arabs won't even recognize.

 

[ChaharMahal]

Feeling guilty ha? It's normal. The 'elitists' are shitting on many of the beliefs our parents, grandparents and relatives indulged in.

Unfortunately for you, the 'elitists' are right and they will remain right for eternity. You're only one ounce of 'honesty' away from becoming an elitist yourself. I'd give it a go if I were you.

I think that train is full of "az ma behtaroon".

I will stick around in the lower weight class for now.
This is weight class that you get to focus on more immediate issues, like let's not beat the fuck out of thieves.

 

[Bi-honar]

It's interesting you say that cause Islam talks explicity about this ignorant practice and condemned it by name! (yet of course, acts of any Muslims = Islam - I get it)
Bullet to the head? Again, you seem very ignorant of the common and widespread animal slaughtering practices - but of course, Western > Eastern in all things.

Dude, what are you going on about still?! Did I say Islam promotes cruelty to animals? I'm condemning this particular act, the way it's being carried out. You make it look like we're disagreeing even when we're both saying the same thing! Any particular reason for that?! Do you just need to be angry?! And what does the dairy cow industry have to do with the bullet to the head and the slaughterhouse? Did I say the dairy or slaughterhouse industry is not cruel? Just because it's cruel, does it make the suffering of this camel any less?!

How about we respect everyone's beliefs and let them practice as they like - whether they are close to you or not. I don't believe in much of what you believe, but you have the right to believe in it and practice whatever you want freely as am I, as long as we do not break the law. That is democratic or no?

Again, are you just saying something for the sake of having said something? You're responding to a post in which I'm promoting tolerance and you're making it look like I'm intolerant to your beliefs and that we have a lot of disagreements. Is this post even directed at me? Did you even read the post?! And may I remind you that I jumped in because of you dissing secularism and democracy. You want to be democratic now and respectful to seculars? Great.

How is doing it in the name of Islam mean that it's from Islam? That is ridiculous. So the war on Iraq and all it's atrocities, where democratic because they were in the name of democracy and removing tyranny. I am not being sensitive at all. I have kept this purely and have referred to primary sources and primary texts. It's people who say "oh, this is what I've known since I was a child" etc. that are being sensitive and non-academic.

All I said was that I cannot be 100% sure that the Boston bombing because it came from an administration/ American government that has lied on a large scale before about MANY things and have pulled off incredibly covert operations of terror. So pardon my RIGHT to be sceptical bout the narrative they say. And btw, they haven't been convicted yet in the court of law, that's an important part of the rule of law that people conveniently forget when they embrace propaganda and have an agenda. I actually went to visit the place of the bombing (a place where respects were paid to those killed and hurt).

Appreciate your respects. But I'd respect and stick up for Bahais, Jews, Secularists etc. if I felt the criticism were unfair and agenda-driven (year-round, during and post-Ramadan ).

Dude, you really need to learn to read and understand something before formulating an opinion and getting all reactionary. Where did I say it's from Islam?!!!! I'm not even going to respond to the rest because you obviously don't care to read and just want to argue and fight, while presenting yourself as a peaceful, animal loving, respectful and tolerant Muslim!

 

[Bi-honar]

Bi honar jan, thank your for the correction.

You find me an Arab in Jordan or Egypt that jumps over the Blood of Sheep as if it was the Fire.

Ghorbani thing in Iran like other things islamic have been transformed into something that arabs won't even recognize.

Fair enough and I'll take your word for it. We can call it an Iranian Muslim tradition then (i.e. I'll take back the section about it not being Iranian at all).

 

[OSTAD POOYA]

this whole thread brings some of the hidden elitist views among the members here.
I think it is because most members here have a background that takes them north of Enghlalb Street in Tehran.

the ghorbani culture is not exactly something that looks great. but honestly all the talk about the torture of the animal is over rated.
in most of Iran, people invite the butcher of neighborhood over for the ghorbooni thing.

The guy carefully ties the feet of the animal so he can't move.

There is whole ritual that he sharpens his knife with Nalbaki (saucer) before starting the slaughtering.

Then he gets the whole head cutting done with in 10-20 seconds. not out of concern for the animal.
because the animal would do real damage with hard kicks. so he has to get it done.

but obviously this is not perfect by any standard for the modern day.

It is mostly done dropping of the blood in front of door or something like that so.

an important guest could jump over it. It is as much of part of Iranian culture as Esfand is.

but I don't assume most of us actually give a $hit the animal. we just like the feel good factor by looking down on rest of people in Iran.

if gave $hit animals, we would not buy meat from smith field where hundreds of documented cattle abuse has taken place.

cows are forced to walk in pens with manure up to their knees.

if we cared about animals
we would not buy milk from dairy milk farms that impregnate a cow 9 month after 9 month for a period of 5 years.
They extract 70-90 of milk from that cow every day for a period of 5 years.
the cow is not allowed any movement because if he does he burn calories. and that's not what's desired.

the cow roams on concrete floors where pressure washer flushes their poop away. but cows like to sit down and redigest their stomach content.
the concrete floor is not exactly friendly for sitting down.

then we get to fiasco in chicken houses. many of us love to go KFC or McDonald and get those chicken strips.
do we give a $hit about the fact that chicken is forced to grow in 30-45 days to full size, something that normally takes over a year.

only animals that Iranians give a $hit about is
little tiny dogs and that is if they are cute.

I will listen to animal rights discussion if brought by a true animal right activist.

most people here though just like to feel superior by pointing to that stupid thing people in Iran do.

Despite all you write about the butcher coming an tying the feet and and and the whole act in public is disgusting and barbaric. Specially when it comes to small children and pushing this backwards culture upon them and continuing with it. This has nothing to do with north or south of Tehran. Maybe your neighborhood brought in the butcher but I have seen some "amaleh" being paid to use some old woman's knife that doesn't even cut. Your examples of Western Slaughter houses is an incorrect negation as its not related to the main point being discussed here. There is no question because of government and big business and meat being a multi billion industry those things do happen. No question about it. But two wrongs dont make it right. And specially when one is under controlled conditions and one is publicized and cherished!

I am not sure why some here do not understand the needing for eating and western slaughter houses and killing animals in public with blood everywhere and let alone the sanitary issues and the emotional ones on children and even adults.

 

[Zob Ahan]

this whole thread brings some of the hidden elitist views among the members here.
I think it is because most members here have a background that takes them north of Enghlalb Street in Tehran.

the ghorbani culture is not exactly something that looks great. but honestly all the talk about the torture of the animal is over rated.
in most of Iran, people invite the butcher of neighborhood over for the ghorbooni thing.

The guy carefully ties the feet of the animal so he can't move.

There is whole ritual that he sharpens his knife with Nalbaki (saucer) before starting the slaughtering.

Then he gets the whole head cutting done with in 10-20 seconds. not out of concern for the animal.
because the animal would do real damage with hard kicks. so he has to get it done.

but obviously this is not perfect by any standard for the modern day.

It is mostly done dropping of the blood in front of door or something like that so.

an important guest could jump over it. It is as much of part of Iranian culture as Esfand is.

but I don't assume most of us actually give a $hit the animal. we just like the feel good factor by looking down on rest of people in Iran.

if gave $hit animals, we would not buy meat from smith field where hundreds of documented cattle abuse has taken place.

cows are forced to walk in pens with manure up to their knees.

if we cared about animals
we would not buy milk from dairy milk farms that impregnate a cow 9 month after 9 month for a period of 5 years.
They extract 70-90 of milk from that cow every day for a period of 5 years.
the cow is not allowed any movement because if he does he burn calories. and that's not what's desired.

the cow roams on concrete floors where pressure washer flushes their poop away. but cows like to sit down and redigest their stomach content.
the concrete floor is not exactly friendly for sitting down.

then we get to fiasco in chicken houses. many of us love to go KFC or McDonald and get those chicken strips.
do we give a $hit about the fact that chicken is forced to grow in 30-45 days to full size, something that normally takes over a year.

only animals that Iranians give a $hit about is
little tiny dogs and that is if they are cute.

I will listen to animal rights discussion if brought by a true animal right activist.

most people here though just like to feel superior by pointing to that stupid thing people in Iran do.

I know what you are saying. Have you been to an Iranian party where some of these guys are hanging around and one of them has just returned from Iran & he says " areh savare taxi shodam & ranandeh hamoon moghe fahmeed ke man az amrika oomadam. Naakes-ha az boomoon mifahmand."

 

[OSTAD POOYA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7S4XbO9jdo

This is a normal Qurbani in an Islamic society..... If you want your children to witness and be a part of it then go ahead! Lucky for the poor bull he gets away until I am sure he is caught and killed by these fuckers.

 

[OSTAD POOYA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFO8nqTTHuM


Here is a full version of a camel being sacrificed. One has to watch to see what happens to this poor animal in the hands of these guys.

 

[ChaharMahal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7S4XbO9jdo

This is a normal Qurbani in an Islamic society..... If you want your children to witness and be a part of it then go ahead! Lucky for the poor bull he gets away until I am sure he is caught and killed by these fuckers.

these morons are way over their head.

this is not how it is done. and average joes don't normally dare to handle anything more than a goat.

 

[OSTAD POOYA]

these morons are way over their head.

this is not how it is done. and average joes don't normally dare to handle anything more than a goat.

The whole point is that almost none of these guys are qualified for such killings. When I remember these killings it was done by some local guy that was just paid to come and kill the poor animal. And many times the knife did not even cut or was way too dull. I think its simply too barbaric and the animal feels it too with all the people around and the hype. I have seen videos of these camels cry before they are killed as they know its coming. Its the public action and glorifying it that makes it much worse. If they did this in a private place and used the meat for daily lives, and poor people, or whatever reason I don't find a problem with it. Its this whole notion of publicly doing these acts and encouraging kids to watch it and follow it is what makes it sick. Its a cult mentality and will continue to be unless its stopped.

 

[Bi-honar]

these morons are way over their head.

this is not how it is done. and average joes don't normally dare to handle anything more than a goat.

LOL. These guys look so bright, I'm surprised he didn't try to use a butter knife!

 

[ChaharMahal]

Despite all you write about the butcher coming an tying the feet and and and the whole act in public is disgusting and barbaric. Specially when it comes to small children and pushing this backwards culture upon them and continuing with it. This has nothing to do with north or south of Tehran. Maybe your neighborhood brought in the butcher but I have seen some "amaleh" being paid to use some old woman's knife that doesn't even cut. Your examples of Western Slaughter houses is an incorrect negation as its not related to the main point being discussed here. There is no question because of government and big business and meat being a multi billion industry those things do happen. No question about it. But two wrongs dont make it right. And specially when one is under controlled conditions and one is publicized and cherished!

I am not sure why some here do not understand the needing for eating and western slaughter houses and killing animals in public with blood everywhere and let alone the sanitary issues and the emotional ones on children and even adults.

I highly doubt that you have seen a sheep get slaughtered in Iran in the recent years.

What is Backward about killing an Animal to eat its meat? people have been doing this for thousand of years.

as for the sanitary issues, I doubt the sanitation is any worse than folks who go hunting for deer and then carry the meat back in their backpacks.

The issue is not two wrongs vs. one wrong.

The issue is the inner supremacy complex that Iranians have toward arabs and other people.

I am sure you can find countless morons slaughtering an animal in an amateurish fashion.

in return I can find you many morons in the American south shooting a deer with high caliber just for fun.

I have been around most of Iran enough to feel that I don't exactly to see the blood gushing out of the Animal's throat.

but the picture you had posted on the front page, definitely does not represent how 99% of these operations are done.

 

[OSTAD POOYA]

I highly doubt that you have seen a sheep get slaughtered in Iran in the recent years.

What is Backward about killing an Animal to eat its meat? people have been doing this for thousand of years.

as for the sanitary issues, I doubt the sanitation is any worse than folks who go hunting for deer and then carry the meat back in their backpacks.

The issue is not two wrongs vs. one wrong.

The issue is the inner supremacy complex that Iranians have toward arabs and other people.

I am sure you can find countless morons slaughtering an animal in an amateurish fashion.

in return I can find you many morons in the American south shooting a deer with high caliber just for fun.

I have been around most of Iran enough to feel that I don't exactly to see the blood gushing out of the Animal's throat.

but the picture you had posted on the front page, definitely does not represent how 99% of these operations are done.

You are right it does not represent 99% on how these poor camels are killed. It presents 100%.

And I feel like I am repeating my self but will say it again. The whole notion of it being done publicly and children being encouraged to watch and people celebrating it is barbaric. We do not live in those times anymore. Its time to move forward and be more civilized than that. Some idiot shooting a deer is no better than the Pakistani guy putting a machete inside the camel. And yes many animals are killed in Amaterurish ways. There were Mexicans here in Los Angeles that were caught choking chickens to death in the kitchen of their restaurant and selling them. And it does happen all over the place. but we should move towards modernity and people and parents should stop their children from attending such gatherings. if I was a parent in Iran I would never allow my kids to watch such things and would talk to them about it and advise them against it. The Islamic regimes and their ideology has stayed in power because of many actions. And this barbaric public gatherings are one of them. Very similar to people being executed and thousands watching it like its a show. You would never see that in Western societies because they are far ahead in those terms.

 

[Motori]

Again, you're going back to the statement that because some Muslims are cruel to animals, Islam is cruel to animals. How is this interlinked? When the opposite is true when looking at Islamic texts. .

For a start I can use Dogs as an example. Islam have made them unclean (Najas) which is the root cause of relentless effort by people in islamic countries to inflict gruesome pain and suffering to those helpless animals.

 

[Fatso]

For those of you who think my criticisms stem from religious belief, they don't.
They stem from the fact that none of you can see the hypocrisy in crying like a parent for a little puppy cause its friendly and cute, but saying its ok to bolt a cow in the head (and miss several times) cause its not in public view. This may sound like a cliche, but read "Animal Liberation". Its an old one and the guy is a bit of a hippie, but he makes very good points not just against people who hate animals, but also those who are selective.

Do you think witnessing killing an animal actually f***s up someone that badly? More than witnessing domestic abuse, or drug abuse or... If that was the case, children of farmers worldwide would all be some of the sickest people on earth.

Like I said, I'm not saying I'm any better. I eat meat and I'm a hypocrite. My issue is with those of you who act high and mighty cause you have a dog at home.

 

[feyenoord]

How wrong. Almost any honest and loving human has more sympathy towards defenseless animals than they do towards fellow man and woman. It's an honest human's nature to want to defend the helpless. A psychopath is the exact opposite.

Stop being dishonest. Your blind belief in a not so holy bunch of nonsense has got you jailed. Liberate yourself.

Interesting! and thanks for the message of emancipation for the masses. It reminds me of "you have nothing to lose but your chains". Yet, a friend of my father used to say as a joke: dear laborers, liberate yourself so that we can rule you.

Just wondering what you mean with liberating yourself? I never understand it when people say with certainty to to others "liberate yourself". Have you found absolute value for liberty yourself, with which other people can measure their own liberty? in that case, what is it?

Different religions and ideologies and philosophies have talked about freedom. For example, the frivolous materialism in the west which creates an illusion of freedom (according to some philosophers) could be considered negative liberty. Or according to Marxists (based on Hegel's writing as remember) freedom is achieved when men are in social cooperation with others when they are producing, etc.

So, the point is, when you say with certainty liberate yourself, what do you mean exactly? keep in mind, that communnitarian philosophers have rejected the idea setting one universal value for social goods such as freedom, believing that such notions are not ahitorical and developed in the mindset of individuals.