GP Joon
Let me put it in smple terms.......to jump into the pool - no dive is needed. Get it? anyone can jump right in anytime from anywhere. clear now?
some have jumped into the pool using the dive (religion) and that is fine.....but most like you get stuck on the dive (religion) and never know what the pool is like. Do you understand? You my friend are stuck....The more you search into Islam and history of Islam the farther you get from Erfan.
Let me put it in smple terms.......to jump into the pool - no dive is needed. Get it? anyone can jump right in anytime from anywhere. clear now?
some have jumped into the pool using the dive (religion) and that is fine.....but most like you get stuck on the dive (religion) and never know what the pool is like. Do you understand? You my friend are stuck....The more you search into Islam and history of Islam the farther you get from Erfan.
Islaam is full of shit. Qoran is full of nonsense. Anyone who reads the Qoran and finds anything meaningful in it is an illiterate idiot who probably has never read anything meaningful in his life. Qoran tells us nothing amazing or meaningful and there are certainly many many more literary works out there that deserve million times more praise, from before and after Islam.
nadari hajm fekrisho.
nemigam maghzesho nadari haa, hatman dari.
choon mazhabi hasti 80 darsad ghodrat fekrit dar zanjir e baraye hamin ham hast ke een jomle haaye sadeye man ro ke yek koodakestani mifahme to nemifahmi.
lenin va trotski AZ KESAFATI KE MAZHAB DAR JAMEYE ROOSIYEH ZADEH BOOD ESTEFADEH KARDAND.
KESAFATI ke kelisayee ortodox zadeh bood.
hamoontori ke martin luther az lajan ee ke kelisaye catholic zadeh bood estefadeh kard vali khob olaagh raft yek din e jadid dorost kard.
mesle bahai haa ke mikhastan az dast e shiye kesaafat rahat shan be jaaye inke khodeshoon ro raahat konan va beran donbale kherad garaayee raftan yek jasoos e englis ro too shiraz kardan peyghambar.
nemigam maghzesho nadari haa, hatman dari.
choon mazhabi hasti 80 darsad ghodrat fekrit dar zanjir e baraye hamin ham hast ke een jomle haaye sadeye man ro ke yek koodakestani mifahme to nemifahmi.
lenin va trotski AZ KESAFATI KE MAZHAB DAR JAMEYE ROOSIYEH ZADEH BOOD ESTEFADEH KARDAND.
KESAFATI ke kelisayee ortodox zadeh bood.
hamoontori ke martin luther az lajan ee ke kelisaye catholic zadeh bood estefadeh kard vali khob olaagh raft yek din e jadid dorost kard.
mesle bahai haa ke mikhastan az dast e shiye kesaafat rahat shan be jaaye inke khodeshoon ro raahat konan va beran donbale kherad garaayee raftan yek jasoos e englis ro too shiraz kardan peyghambar.
bad ham mamoolan ensan haa ke ba ham tabadol e andishe mikonand har kodam mantegh khod ra daarand.
to hala chera ehsaas mikoni ke bayad az mantegh man estefadeh koni.
choon khomeini ro mesal zadi bezar begam ke khar fahm shi:
vaghti ke oon haroom zaeh hezar pedari e mafool az najaf shoroo kard goh khordan maghzhaaye mardom kamelan ejareh rafte bood, kari ke inaa kardan oomadan va natijeye 250 saal sarmaye gozareh emperatoori brittania ro gereftan.
nasl andar nasl deen rideh bood too maghze mardom va shah ham movafagh nashod ke een nejasat ra be zodaayad, va khomeini az een zaaf estefadeh kard va een nahali ro ke engelestan kashteh bood ro azash mive gereft.
to hala chera ehsaas mikoni ke bayad az mantegh man estefadeh koni.
choon khomeini ro mesal zadi bezar begam ke khar fahm shi:
vaghti ke oon haroom zaeh hezar pedari e mafool az najaf shoroo kard goh khordan maghzhaaye mardom kamelan ejareh rafte bood, kari ke inaa kardan oomadan va natijeye 250 saal sarmaye gozareh emperatoori brittania ro gereftan.
nasl andar nasl deen rideh bood too maghze mardom va shah ham movafagh nashod ke een nejasat ra be zodaayad, va khomeini az een zaaf estefadeh kard va een nahali ro ke engelestan kashteh bood ro azash mive gereft.
What a stupid comment. Almost as stupid as saying:
Dear Science,
This week I safely prevented millions from stealing, cheating, lying, drugs, alcohol, and rape with a simple prayer while you had to put thousands of human beings in jail like animals. The other week while your agents dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and killed thousands of innocent beings in an instance my agents (like Mother Teresa) across the globe were attending to the poor and orphans. The other day while your doctors were doing experiments on the defenseless elderly, retarded, Jews and Polls in the concentration camps I was making sure that my believers uphold their ethics.
Yours, Religion.
Dear Science,
This week I safely prevented millions from stealing, cheating, lying, drugs, alcohol, and rape with a simple prayer while you had to put thousands of human beings in jail like animals. The other week while your agents dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and killed thousands of innocent beings in an instance my agents (like Mother Teresa) across the globe were attending to the poor and orphans. The other day while your doctors were doing experiments on the defenseless elderly, retarded, Jews and Polls in the concentration camps I was making sure that my believers uphold their ethics.
Yours, Religion.
What about Dear Science, today I prayed and then then walked into the Islamic republic prison and tortured and raped a woman. Then walked into another cell and tortured to death a student who had protested against the regime. Then got a group of Basiji together and went beating people up for protesting against a dictatorship government. Stoned to death a woman for adultry while laughing and having fun watching her in pain struggling and then took a rock and strike her head while all the other religious around me screamed in excitement. Then went back, and cut few hands off for stealing bread to feed their family. Walked around and kicked and hit girls not dressing the way I want them to.
Yours, Relgion.
Yours, Relgion.
That's odd Behrooz jaan, I didn't know I was an illiterate idiot! 
I found quite a lot of useful things in the Quran and other Abrahamic books, the most important of which is the very point everyone has been arguing in this thread... That mankind has a great weakness in always searching for a sheppard and the wicked abuse that weakness to proclaim they are the sheppards. The most important message of these books is to not become victims of the wicked and wickedness by seeking a shappard from the midst of mortals! I don't think the herd mentality of the sheep takes anything away from that message - quite the contraty, it has only proven its validity and strength.
Come on Ashtar jaan, as stupid as RG is in general and that tweet was in particular, equating religion with ethics completely takes away from the argument you're trying to make and only validates the tweet, because the Taliban would very well say (and in fact have said) that their act was ethical in lieu of religion...
I found quite a lot of useful things in the Quran and other Abrahamic books, the most important of which is the very point everyone has been arguing in this thread... That mankind has a great weakness in always searching for a sheppard and the wicked abuse that weakness to proclaim they are the sheppards. The most important message of these books is to not become victims of the wicked and wickedness by seeking a shappard from the midst of mortals! I don't think the herd mentality of the sheep takes anything away from that message - quite the contraty, it has only proven its validity and strength.
Come on Ashtar jaan, as stupid as RG is in general and that tweet was in particular, equating religion with ethics completely takes away from the argument you're trying to make and only validates the tweet, because the Taliban would very well say (and in fact have said) that their act was ethical in lieu of religion...
1st, I think you missed the point of my argument. Its point is that just as it is ridiculous to blame science for the atomic bomb, crime, prison, and torture it is equally as ridiculous to blame religion for murder, torture, illiteracy and such. People who do so are f..ing morons who live in this fantasy world where they wish to believe that all human being are basically and inherently good and decent and thus look for any other excuse to blame mankind’s retched behavior and actions and thus to somehow exonerate their own shortcomings. You want to point a finger at something or someone for all of mankind’s problems? Well don't look too far. Just look in the mirror and the person sitting next to you, in front of you or behind you.
2nd, Just because Taliban may say they are carrying out religious teachings doesn't make it necessarily true. First, you don't know for sure if they truly believe what they say and are not just lying, second you don't know if they aren't delusional (which they likely are), third even if they were none of the above just because someone may have a wrong understanding of a concept or teaching (like religion) doesn't necessarily make that concept incorrect. For example, if a crazy person were to stand at top of a building and drop rocks on people's head and were to claim that he believes the law of gravity dictates that the rocks should be going up to the sky and not fall down on people's head would you blame the law of gravity for people being hurt because a delusional person has a wrong understanding of gravity?
3rd, true religions (not pseudo-religions which I will discuss later if I have the time) and concepts such as God and afterlife have everything to do with ethics as we know it and define and in fact without it ethics and being ethical would be quite irrational and illogical. I will try to expand on this idea further as well for you, if I find the time.
دوست عزیز
این سفسطه گرایی است و حرف غیر منطقی
همینطوری ادم از هرجایی بپره تو استخر ؟ بدون هیچ نظمی بدون هیچ راهنمایی
حالا فرض را هم بر این بگذاریم که عرفان مانند یک استخر است
شما وقتی میروی استخر یا اصلا فرضا می خواهید وارد یک جایی بشوید حالا استخر باشه استادیوم باشه یا یک دشت باشه از هرجایی بروید به مقصد می رسید
خوب پس اینجا شما راهنما و دلیل و مرشد و راه و مسلک را بیلاخ گفته اید
اگر اینطوره پس بعضی ها ندانسته شاید بجای اینکه توی استخر بپرند بیافتد بلانسبت توی مستراح
یعنی دکتر عرفان شما مثال زده ؟
این مثال نه تنها راه عرفان را گم میکند بلکه ممکن است هرکسی برای خودش ان استخر را تعریفی بکند و باز بلانسبت خر تو خر شود
عارف و جاهل و حکیم و ودیو فرشته هر کدام برای خود ادعای عارف بودن کنند
شما که مولانا و حافظ و عرفای بزرگ ما را قبول ندارید
ولی یک جمله از یک نفر شنیده ای و قاب کرده ای و فکر میکنی طریقت را اموخته ای
این مثل را هم دکتر عارف شما از همان مثل قدیمی همه راها به رم می رسد در اورده و فکر کرده به عرفان رسیدن مثل طویله است که هرحیوانی از هر جایی خواست وارد شد به معرفت حق می رسد
شما بیا و بگو این استخری را که به ان رسیده ایست چه شکلی است
چه خواصی دارد
شاید خدا نکرده بجای استخر راه گم کرده ای و وارد منجلاب شده ای
این سفسطه گرایی است و حرف غیر منطقی
همینطوری ادم از هرجایی بپره تو استخر ؟ بدون هیچ نظمی بدون هیچ راهنمایی
حالا فرض را هم بر این بگذاریم که عرفان مانند یک استخر است
شما وقتی میروی استخر یا اصلا فرضا می خواهید وارد یک جایی بشوید حالا استخر باشه استادیوم باشه یا یک دشت باشه از هرجایی بروید به مقصد می رسید
خوب پس اینجا شما راهنما و دلیل و مرشد و راه و مسلک را بیلاخ گفته اید
اگر اینطوره پس بعضی ها ندانسته شاید بجای اینکه توی استخر بپرند بیافتد بلانسبت توی مستراح
یعنی دکتر عرفان شما مثال زده ؟
این مثال نه تنها راه عرفان را گم میکند بلکه ممکن است هرکسی برای خودش ان استخر را تعریفی بکند و باز بلانسبت خر تو خر شود
عارف و جاهل و حکیم و ودیو فرشته هر کدام برای خود ادعای عارف بودن کنند
شما که مولانا و حافظ و عرفای بزرگ ما را قبول ندارید
ولی یک جمله از یک نفر شنیده ای و قاب کرده ای و فکر میکنی طریقت را اموخته ای
این مثل را هم دکتر عارف شما از همان مثل قدیمی همه راها به رم می رسد در اورده و فکر کرده به عرفان رسیدن مثل طویله است که هرحیوانی از هر جایی خواست وارد شد به معرفت حق می رسد
شما بیا و بگو این استخری را که به ان رسیده ایست چه شکلی است
چه خواصی دارد
شاید خدا نکرده بجای استخر راه گم کرده ای و وارد منجلاب شده ای
جناب
تو هم منطقت شده منطق بی بی خدا بیامرز ما
بهش میگفتیم از کجا میدونی که حضرت محمد پیغمبره
میگفت قران خدا گفته
می گفتیم از کجا میدونی که قران قران خداست
میگفت حضرت محمد گفته
حالا تو هم میای میگی خامنه ای از دین استفاده میکنه و به قدرت می رسه
میگیم لنین و استالین چی
میگی انها هم از دین استفاده میکنند چون دین جامعه راا خراب کرده بود
میگوییم پس وقتی خامنه ای از این استفاده میکنه که به قدرت برسه یا مثلا نیتنیاهو یا اوباما اونجا یعنی دین جامعه رو ساخته ؟
میگی نه چون دین جامعه رو از بین می بره
یعنی چه جامعه دینی باشه چه کمونیستی و غیر دینی بر میگردی به دین یکجا مردم دین دار هستند و حاکم به کمک انها به قدرت می رسه یکجا
مردم از دین زده شدند یعنی دیندار نیستند و حاکم به قدرت می رسه
خوب شخص مخالف تو هم می تونه برعکس این استدلال را بکنه
یعنی به قدرت رسیدن یک نفر در جامعه دینی را سببش را بی دین بودن ان جامعه قبل از به قدرت رسیدن بداند
و به قدرت رسیدن یک نفر دیگر را در یک جامعه بی دین را سببش را بی دین بودن مردم ان جامعه بداند
اخه این هم شد منطق؟
:d
یعنی اگر فردا یکی اومد و به اسم سکس مثلا چون نیودیسم در جامعه طرفدار داشت به قدرت رسید
اونوقت تو می ایی میگویی اره تقصیر دینه چون مردم بخاطر نفرت از دین لخت و عور شدند
اگر یکی اومد در جامعه ای که مردم همه چادر چاقچور کردند با کمک مردم به قدرت رسید
باز میگی سوار دین شده
بقول گفتنی نمی دانیم با کدام سازت برقصیم که خایه هامون نلرزه
بله جانم
تو هم منطقت شده منطق بی بی خدا بیامرز ما
بهش میگفتیم از کجا میدونی که حضرت محمد پیغمبره
میگفت قران خدا گفته
می گفتیم از کجا میدونی که قران قران خداست
میگفت حضرت محمد گفته
حالا تو هم میای میگی خامنه ای از دین استفاده میکنه و به قدرت می رسه
میگیم لنین و استالین چی
میگی انها هم از دین استفاده میکنند چون دین جامعه راا خراب کرده بود
میگوییم پس وقتی خامنه ای از این استفاده میکنه که به قدرت برسه یا مثلا نیتنیاهو یا اوباما اونجا یعنی دین جامعه رو ساخته ؟
میگی نه چون دین جامعه رو از بین می بره
یعنی چه جامعه دینی باشه چه کمونیستی و غیر دینی بر میگردی به دین یکجا مردم دین دار هستند و حاکم به کمک انها به قدرت می رسه یکجا
مردم از دین زده شدند یعنی دیندار نیستند و حاکم به قدرت می رسه
خوب شخص مخالف تو هم می تونه برعکس این استدلال را بکنه
یعنی به قدرت رسیدن یک نفر در جامعه دینی را سببش را بی دین بودن ان جامعه قبل از به قدرت رسیدن بداند
و به قدرت رسیدن یک نفر دیگر را در یک جامعه بی دین را سببش را بی دین بودن مردم ان جامعه بداند
اخه این هم شد منطق؟
:d
یعنی اگر فردا یکی اومد و به اسم سکس مثلا چون نیودیسم در جامعه طرفدار داشت به قدرت رسید
اونوقت تو می ایی میگویی اره تقصیر دینه چون مردم بخاطر نفرت از دین لخت و عور شدند
اگر یکی اومد در جامعه ای که مردم همه چادر چاقچور کردند با کمک مردم به قدرت رسید
باز میگی سوار دین شده
بقول گفتنی نمی دانیم با کدام سازت برقصیم که خایه هامون نلرزه
بله جانم
جناب
با عرض پوزش باید خدمتتون عرض کنم گزینه اول شما مغلطه محض است
چطور درک کنیم که تمام مذاهب به قول شما بولشیت است ؟
به این می گویند مغلطه چون دلیلی بجز نظر شخصی خودت نداری که این اصلا با اصل عرفان ناسازگاری دارد
درست مثل اینکه چند نفر در یک صحرای برهوت باشند و بخواهند راه را پیدا کنند
یکی از ان میان بگوید
اولین کاری را که برای رسیدن به مقصدتان باید در نظر بگیرید این است که بطرف شمال شرقی و جنوب غربی پیش نروید
حالا دیلیلش چیست نرویم ؟
یا مرشد ما قبلا این راه را رفته یا از باد هوا می گوید
حالا ایا جناب عالی که دستوالعمل می فرمایید و طریقت را به ما مریدان یاد می دهید این راه را قبلا رفته اید
یا از باد هوای نفس می گویید
عاقلان دانند
با عرض پوزش باید خدمتتون عرض کنم گزینه اول شما مغلطه محض است
چطور درک کنیم که تمام مذاهب به قول شما بولشیت است ؟
به این می گویند مغلطه چون دلیلی بجز نظر شخصی خودت نداری که این اصلا با اصل عرفان ناسازگاری دارد
درست مثل اینکه چند نفر در یک صحرای برهوت باشند و بخواهند راه را پیدا کنند
یکی از ان میان بگوید
اولین کاری را که برای رسیدن به مقصدتان باید در نظر بگیرید این است که بطرف شمال شرقی و جنوب غربی پیش نروید
حالا دیلیلش چیست نرویم ؟
یا مرشد ما قبلا این راه را رفته یا از باد هوا می گوید
حالا ایا جناب عالی که دستوالعمل می فرمایید و طریقت را به ما مریدان یاد می دهید این راه را قبلا رفته اید
یا از باد هوای نفس می گویید
عاقلان دانند
من قبلا چون خودم اتئیست بودم وبعدها که این تفکر را پشت سرگذاشتم
واقعا برای اتئیست ها احترام خاصی قائل بودم
هرچند می دیدم کاملا با افکاری که در سردارم مخالفند
انها را روشنفکرانی می دیدم که در پی حقیقت هستند بدون هیچ تعصب
بعدها که بیشتر و بیشتر با انها اشنا شدم و به درون انها بیشتر پی بردم
احساس کردم که از خشکه مقدسان مسلمان مسیحی یهودی و غیره دست کمی ندارند
هردو میخوانند ولی هر دو از همان زاویه ای میبینند که می خواهند ببینند !!!ا
بله جانم
واقعا برای اتئیست ها احترام خاصی قائل بودم
هرچند می دیدم کاملا با افکاری که در سردارم مخالفند
انها را روشنفکرانی می دیدم که در پی حقیقت هستند بدون هیچ تعصب
بعدها که بیشتر و بیشتر با انها اشنا شدم و به درون انها بیشتر پی بردم
احساس کردم که از خشکه مقدسان مسلمان مسیحی یهودی و غیره دست کمی ندارند
هردو میخوانند ولی هر دو از همان زاویه ای میبینند که می خواهند ببینند !!!ا
بله جانم
That's odd Behrooz jaan, I didn't know I was an illiterate idiot!
I found quite a lot of useful things in the Quran and other Abrahamic books, the most important of which is the very point everyone has been arguing in this thread... That mankind has a great weakness in always searching for a sheppard and the wicked abuse that weakness to proclaim they are the sheppards. The most important message of these books is to not become victims of the wicked and wickedness by seeking a shappard from the midst of mortals! I don't think the herd mentality of the sheep takes anything away from that message - quite the contraty, it has only proven its validity and strength.
I found quite a lot of useful things in the Quran and other Abrahamic books, the most important of which is the very point everyone has been arguing in this thread... That mankind has a great weakness in always searching for a sheppard and the wicked abuse that weakness to proclaim they are the sheppards. The most important message of these books is to not become victims of the wicked and wickedness by seeking a shappard from the midst of mortals! I don't think the herd mentality of the sheep takes anything away from that message - quite the contraty, it has only proven its validity and strength.
Let's take the question of morality, what the Torat, Bible and Qoran tell us to do with god's mandate:
In judaism, god tell the "chosen people" that you can exactly do what you like to other people: you can enslave them, you can take their women, land and kill their men. You can do all this and more with god's permission.
In the bible slavery is permitted and in fact ordered by god.
In Islam, well, we know too well. Women inherit half what men are entitled to. Infidels must die, but not a virgin woman, because Allah doesn't like it. So virgins are raped first and then murdered. This ritual is performed with god's mandate.
I could go on about these, there are countless wicked things that religion tell us we can legitimately do. How about genital mutilation, or suicide bombing which are entirely religion based.
Many morally decent human beings begin to do the most awful things when they believe in religion. We know this too well from our own country and if anyone still debate this and has't woken up then I am sorry, he/she is one fucking idiot.
Sure, evil happens without religion too. Ordinary faithless people are quite capable of evil and there are many examples of this throughout history. So the question is, if evil is possible without religion but also WITH religion and with the mandate of religion, what do we need religion for? What has it given us in terms of morality that we couldn't reach by ourselves? Any average person with average moral equipment knows what is right and what is wrong. Only sociopaths and pcychopaths believe rape, murder and torture are ok.
On the other hand, it was only through advancement and secularism that we have come to give women the right to vote, we have established the human rights charter under which all human beings are equal, men, women, blacks, ethnic minorities, children have the same rights under the law. These were not achieved through religion. If we were still guided by Bible in the west we would have none of these things. We would have a society like Iran that is based on Islaam and that wicked evil book called Koraan.
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I understood your point, but as usual you got all defencive and missed mine! What you're arguing in your first point, can be equally argued in reverse... that it's just as ridiculous to attribute all achievements to science and overlook its flaws or attibute ethics to religion without overlooking its flaws. The truth obviously lies somewhere in between those 4 ridiculous arguments of the extremeties (the two that you mentioned + the 2 that I mentioned). If you want to close your eyes and your mind and insist that the truth is that religion has only brought humanity ethics, then you might as well argue with a dumb comedian like RG.
On your 2nd point, it's equally important to judge something by its effects, not just its intentions. Looking at just one aspect of something in a vacuum is not objective. And the objective view is that there have been a lot of nutcases that have done much evil on this planet, and continue to do so, in the name of religion. You want to ignore all that and suggest that religion automatically means ethics, be my guest. But again, you will only score points against people like RG.
On your 3rd pint, if you do believe in religion and anything that's written in the Abrahamic books, then you'll know that religion means submission to God and no one and nothing but God. That automatically eliminates every human being that claims they're doing the work of God or are the doorway to God. And you would know that anyone who believes in a supreme leader or other religous authority has gone stray and missed the very essence of that message or concept as you put it.
On your 2nd point, it's equally important to judge something by its effects, not just its intentions. Looking at just one aspect of something in a vacuum is not objective. And the objective view is that there have been a lot of nutcases that have done much evil on this planet, and continue to do so, in the name of religion. You want to ignore all that and suggest that religion automatically means ethics, be my guest. But again, you will only score points against people like RG.
On your 3rd pint, if you do believe in religion and anything that's written in the Abrahamic books, then you'll know that religion means submission to God and no one and nothing but God. That automatically eliminates every human being that claims they're doing the work of God or are the doorway to God. And you would know that anyone who believes in a supreme leader or other religous authority has gone stray and missed the very essence of that message or concept as you put it.