Are Iranians really ready for Democracy? I don't think so.

ashtar

National Team Player
Aug 17, 2003
5,448
19
#1
The events surrounding this election are a sad reminder that many Iranians are not ready for the practice of democracy.

Democracy requires the tolerance of the opposite view, the acceptance of majority’s wish, and more importantly the respect of the law.

Instead what we saw in this election is that many Iranians are not only intolerant of each other’s views but simply can not accept the fact that the majority may have a different view than there’s. And the accusation goes both ways and not just Mousavi's supporters.

If you haven’t seen the movie Gangs of New York I encourage you to see it. It’s a movie about early America and various ethnicities in New York and the early days of democracy in US. There the different groups would go as far as killing each other prior to election and it shows the voting frauds by the political parties. But after the elections people accepted the outcome. We saw the modern version of the Western culture of democracy in Bush vs Gore election. Even though Gore won the majority of popular vote and had strong suspicions about voting fraud for Bush he and his followers nevertheless accepted the Supreme Court’s decision which was clearly biased as well because for them setting the precedence of the respect of the law and their democratic values was more important than the election result itself.

In Iran however, it’s almost the opposite of US. Both groups had already made-up their mind that they would not accept anything but a win and were ready to challenge it (be it by demonstration, violence, or use of force). Regardless of what the outcome of these current events I’m afraid that Iranians have taken one huge step backwards from a democratic future. Because now they have set the precedence for future elections that it’s OK for the losing side to simply dismiss the result of an election through non-legal means.

People can argue all they want that the regime is corrupt and the law is biased but all dissidents (at any time and any place) can make the same argument about any system and then decide to bypass the law and try to get what they perceive to be their rights by breaking the existing laws. For example, imagine a secular and democratic Iran in the future where a minority separatist group would accuse the government of favoritism and decide to get hold of the power by breaking the law and then citing the current event as their precedence.
 
Jun 18, 2005
10,889
5
#2
So I can still see Ashtar's useless threads even though I have him on ignore?

I do not see the contents of the thread but just the title.

In any case...tof too roohet Ashtar.
 

ashtar

National Team Player
Aug 17, 2003
5,448
19
#4
So I can still see Ashtar's useless threads even though I have him on ignore?

I do not see the contents of the thread but just the title.

In any case...tof too roohet Ashtar.
Why? Because my views are different than yours? Is this the kind of "tolerant" and "free" society I can expect if your ilk take control of the power in Iran? If that's the case why would I want to support your cause?
 

pasha

Ball Boy
Jun 23, 2004
383
0
#5
Why? Because my views are different than yours? Is this the kind of "tolerant" and "free" society I can expect if your ilk take control of the power in Iran? If that's the case why would I want to support your cause?
Just shut the fuck up already.
 

reza+

Ball Boy
Feb 19, 2004
354
0
#6
ashtar, here's what i said in a different thread (in response to one of your remaks)

" ashtar .... i take what u say but the point is a large/significant "minority" would like to be respected (as equal citizens) and their social values/privacy/viewpoints/rights etc should also be officially acknowledged and respected ... how many more uprisings does it take to achieve some very basic rights?"

so, in other words: what is the responsibility of the so called majority towards the "minority"? is the government for all?
 

R_E_Z_A

IPL Player
Jan 16, 2004
2,916
0
#13
Why? Because my views are different than yours? Is this the kind of "tolerant" and "free" society I can expect if your ilk take control of the power in Iran? If that's the case why would I want to support your cause?
Yes how ironic. These people accuse others of lack of tolerance and are crying out on why there is no freedom of speech.
 
Mar 2, 2003
2,677
0
#14
ashtar, here's what i said in a different thread (in response to one of your remaks)

" ashtar .... i take what u say but the point is a large/significant "minority" would like to be respected (as equal citizens) and their social values/privacy/viewpoints/rights etc should also be officially acknowledged and respected ... how many more uprisings does it take to achieve some very basic rights?"

so, in other words: what is the responsibility of the so called majority towards the "minority"? is the government for all?
You do have a valid point, in that respect begets respect. There must be respect by the minority for the right of the majority to run the affairs of a state and respect by the majority for certain basic rights for the minority. The contours of the latter are not ones that can be drawn out through any logical or legal exercise, but fundamentally you cannot have a substantial group in your society feel totally alienated if you want a stable form of government in the long run.

That said, the title that ashtar has chosen for this thread is very much on point. Nothing in the events since the election make me feel that our nation is ready for democratic government under rule of law. I don't want to drag the issue, as I will only be reminded more why I have this feeling.

Maybe something good can come out of all this, but for that to happen, we should at least frame the issues properly and not resort to lies and a contest about who yells loudest. I do commend you for bringing the right issue out, but even your voice is a minority among the throngs that are pushing the situation to a place where the likely result will be a crackdown that leaves us with a more repressive society with two undemocratic camps. One driven underground partly for its own excesses, and the other left to claim a country much weaker and more fragile as a result.
 
Mar 2, 2003
2,677
0
#15
ashtar, here's what i said in a different thread (in response to one of your remaks)

" ashtar .... i take what u say but the point is a large/significant "minority" would like to be respected (as equal citizens) and their social values/privacy/viewpoints/rights etc should also be officially acknowledged and respected ... how many more uprisings does it take to achieve some very basic rights?"

so, in other words: what is the responsibility of the so called majority towards the "minority"? is the government for all?
You do have a valid point, in that respect begets respect. There must be respect by the minority for the right of the majority to run the affairs of a state and respect by the majority for certain basic rights for the minority. The contours of the latter are not ones that can be drawn out through any logical or legal exercise, but fundamentally you cannot have a substantial group in your society feel totally alienated if you want a stable form of government in the long run.

That said, the title that ashtar has chosen for this thread is very much on point. Nothing in the events since the election make me feel that our nation is ready for democratic government under rule of law. I don't want to drag the issue, as I will only be reminded more why I have this feeling.

Maybe something good can come out of all this, but for that to happen, we should at least frame the issues properly and not resort to lies and a contest about who yells loudest. I do commend you for bringing the right issue out, but even your voice is a minority among the throngs that are pushing the situation to a place where the only result will be a crackdown that leaves us with a more repressive society with two undemocratic camps. One driven underground partly for its own excesses, and the other left to claim a country much weaker and more fragile as a result.