Beyond the elections in the US

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#41
They ran on that, but even more on reversing the Democrat agenda which was widely viewed as counterproductive and over the top.
Well, you say yourself their agenda was mainly "Anti" and their economic agenda consisted mainly of "tax cuts" and "deficit cutting" which is itself contradicting. Alright, maybe that's an agenda, but you can't say people actually voted for that or if you say that people voted for an economic agenda that consisted of "deficit cutting tax cuts", maybe people are stupid?


But anyway, we will see in 2 years, but GOP doesn't need to do too much in congress. They led the US to the worst economic crisis in 80 years, they didn't do any constructive work in congress and they didn't come up with any plan in the last 2 years, except for being anti and yet got rewarded. They also hugely benefitted from Democratic stupidity and a presidential staff that blew a huge chance for change, but it was pretty easy to win this one and memory seems short.
 

IranZamin

IPL Player
Feb 17, 2006
3,367
2
#42
Well, you say yourself their agenda was mainly "Anti" and their economic agenda consisted mainly of "tax cuts" and "deficit cutting" which is itself contradicting. Alright, maybe that's an agenda, but you can't say people actually voted for that or if you say that people voted for an economic agenda that consisted of "deficit cutting tax cuts", maybe people are stupid?
This was much more a vote against Democrats than it was for Republicans. And the same was true in reverse 2 years ago.
 

ardy

Legionnaire
Nov 25, 2004
6,575
0
San Diego Armando Maradona, CA
#43
Ardy jaan, yes I agree that the Federal Reserve system and the special interest groups around it is the greatest, by far the greatest, theft machine out there. However, the reason I did not list that as the number 1 structural problem for the US' wealth is that the Federal Reserve system steals not just from the Americans but it also steals from the rest of the world to the benefit of the Americans. They just issued $600B after a previous round of $700B. This money is handed to US house-holds in the form of ultra cheap 30 year fixed mortgages. That is a theft from the Chinese for example. The Chinese are holding $1.5T US dollars. You have to ask them, what are you holding now!?
I don't think the $600B is going to be handed to US house-holds. From what I understand, the Fed's primary goal here (beside screwing the Chinese in deflating the value of dollar as you pointed out) is to bring down the price of long-term treasury bonds by buying them directly from banks.

I found this clip very informative:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLydFTmi718&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Will Fed's 600 Billion Jumpstart Economy?[/ame]
 
Oct 18, 2002
7,941
0
704 Houser
#44
Another thing worth adding is this: Defying the noise-making ideologues is a good thing, but a rigid, unbending approach that disregards the will of the majority is only sound when dealing with absolute moral issues like civil rights. On matters like universal vs. private healthcare where there are legitimate pros and cons to both sides and no absolute right or wrong position, defying the electorate is not a virtue- it’s just ideological stubbornness.
The first time I had a private conversation with a politician (Republican state rep), he told me that the voting public is fickle. We don't live in a direct democracy and for good reasons. The core idea behind a Republic, in my opinion, is for people who know law and law-making to advance their constituents' interests at the assembly or any political office. The popularity of a decision among the electorate does not necessarily reflect the public's interests. The elected representative will make that determination. Sometimes the public will hate that decision and will vote the representative out of office only to change their mind a few years later. Any public representative who bases his decisions on the popularity of issues is not doing his job right. This has little to do with ideology. Otherwise, we would just let public opinion polls run the country. Indeed, there were many Democrats who cast their votes on the healthcare bill knowing that it would lead to their demise in their particular districts.

I also think we should not let hindsight bias entirely affect our judgment of a decision made for its time. The voters were right when they gave the already Democratic US Congress a mandate in 2008 and the Democrats delivered the goods, however half-assedly. Perhaps voters didn't like too much change at once and broke for GOP this time. And perhaps, when the majority of the changes actually go into effect the voters will like come to appreciate them.

We also should not ignore the urgent political reality of keeping your base happy. There is nothing worse than a disaffected base. In other words, if Democrats sat on their asses and did nothing, they could have lost a 100 seats even in the bluest of blue states. Healthcare may not have been a priority for the "fickle" independent voter who swung for GOP this time, but it was for the base of the Democratic party and it may have been enough not to lose the Senate. Remember, Democrats gained the majority not in 2008 but in 2006 and they had very little to show for the previous term in which they were in majority except an unpopular TARP program. The thinking at the time was, we have had our corporate welfare, what do people get? They got a healthcare bill that ended up mostly being an insurance giveaway (with a few measly bones thrown towards Democrats such as removal of pre-existing conditions) but in politics you celebrate anything as an achievement. I think your discussion with Mehdi actually proves this point in particular regarding Obama: Healthcare was an issue that he inevitably had to tackle and could not afford to let go. Healthcare was not an urgent matter for Obama personally. In fact, that is true if one looks at his campaign. Obama did not have a concrete healthcare plan even after he was elected. It changed every day. But he was forced into adopting the issue because of base pressures and he took the issue on very unenthusiastically.
 
Jun 7, 2004
3,196
0
#45
I don't think the $600B is going to be handed to US house-holds. From what I understand, the Fed's primary goal here (beside screwing the Chinese in deflating the value of dollar as you pointed out) is to bring down the price of long-term treasury bonds by buying them directly from banks.

I found this clip very informative:

YouTube - Will Fed's 600 Billion Jumpstart Economy?
Ardy jaan, I did not mean that they would literally hand bags to the Americans. When the Fed buys bonds the purpose is to lower the long-term interest rates. As a result the 30 year mortgage rates come down. In fact the reason 30 year mortgage rates are down to such levels is directly because of Fed's activities. This means that each household gets say $100 a month. This money is from the Fed.

Fed's way of distributing money is crude. This has great advantages and some disadvantages. Still though, the point is that, the average American benefits from Fed's theft from foreigners. Of course the foreigners do not have to be in the position they are, they just insist to, because of their own reasons. In case of the Chinese, it is because their government is after power and does not much care for the welfare of its citizens.
 

ardy

Legionnaire
Nov 25, 2004
6,575
0
San Diego Armando Maradona, CA
#46
Emanuel is running for mayor in Chicago and Summers is, well, somewhere. They did more wrong than right in those 2 years though.



Slow down....

When he picked Summers and Emanuel, it was more or less a general consensus and they were regarded as the best brains for that. No one really criticized him for doing that and in fact he was lauded for going for people with experience who at some point did something right(Summers, the man behind Clinton economics superpower greatness and Economics brain). You also realize that Clintons had some power in the democratic party and wanted their people on board. You also realize that people like Rohmer, Orszag, Golsbee were not really Clinton people but were mobbed out by Clinton people(especially Rohmer) and you also realize that some people he nominated, like Peter Diamond, recent Nobel prize winner in economics who was an expert on labor market policies, were rejected by the Senate, don't you?
I don't know which general consensus you're talking about buddy. Emanuel was in no way a good choice to deliver the "change" Obama was campaigning for. I mean you're talking about a strong supporter of Iraq war and one of the architects of NAFTA. Those two facts alone should have discounted Emaneul as a potential Chief of Staff.

It's the same model as used in Switzerland and partly if I'm not wrong Germany, which brings universal coverage. Whether it brings it down or not is something we will see in the near future.
Yes, it's very close to the Swiss model: a combination of regulations along with subsidies. And it's been actually practiced in Massachusetts too. But do you know what's been the outcome of that model? More cost than the initial estimates. Obama's plan will expand coverage, but that expansion is going to cost Americans even more than they are currently paying. And yet, the whole point of a health-care reform was to bring the cost down.



Restructuring the Fed is a huge issue with way too many interest groups involved and it's nothing you can change in these times. That's at least the reality of it.

Besides, he never ran to change the Fed. That's something Ron Paul wanted to do and it's a Libertarian agenda. Further, fiat money/fiat currencies is running now for over 30 years and everyone does it. It would take a global initiative to change it, not just by one country. I mean, did you expect him to change it? At least ask for stuff that is realistic, like Jupiter trips in the next 3 years.
LOL! Good one. Of course I didn't. But FP started this thread and discussed some of the structural problems that the U.S. is currently facing and I mentioned the Fed.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#47
I don't know which general consensus you're talking about buddy. Emanuel was in no way a good choice to deliver the "change" Obama was campaigning for. I mean you're talking about a strong supporter of Iraq war and one of the architects of NAFTA. Those two facts alone should have discounted Emaneul as a potential Chief of Staff.
I don't really feel like going into magazine/paper archives from back then, but the choice of Emanuel as chief of staff was mainly seen as positive for various reasons(he knowing D.C., he being a tough guy etc.)


LOL! Good one. Of course I didn't. But FP started this thread and discussed some of the structural problems that the U.S. is currently facing and I mentioned the Fed.
Well, look, the thing is that the Fed, ECB, BofE, etc. all kind of work the same way and create/print money out of their ass if you like. Further problem is that going back to the Gold standard isn't an alternative either.
Maybe a change in monetary policy/fed would be a swell idea, but given that no one else would pull the same way, it would in the short and probably long run hurt the US. Central banks work in a way to protect the interest of countries, not necessary the free market and the people. If 5 players play a game with unfair means and 1 country tries to play fair/smart, it will get screwed. FP says that China gets screwed over with QE but China has been screwing everyone over by keeping Yuan low.
 

IranZamin

IPL Player
Feb 17, 2006
3,367
2
#48
The first time I had a private conversation with a politician (Republican state rep), he told me that the voting public is fickle. We don't live in a direct democracy and for good reasons. The core idea behind a Republic, in my opinion, is for people who know law and law-making to advance their constituents' interests at the assembly or any political office. The popularity of a decision among the electorate does not necessarily reflect the public's interests. The elected representative will make that determination. Sometimes the public will hate that decision and will vote the representative out of office only to change their mind a few years later. Any public representative who bases his decisions on the popularity of issues is not doing his job right. This has little to do with ideology. Otherwise, we would just let public opinion polls run the country. Indeed, there were many Democrats who cast their votes on the healthcare bill knowing that it would lead to their demise in their particular districts.
While there is a point to be made about the knee-jerk nature of the electorate, I think in this particular case they have actually been quite consistent. Most Americans just don’t want socialized healthcare. They rejected it in the 90s, and they did it again this year. Both private and universal systems have their flaws, and I think the Democrats just need to come to terms with the reality that their vision for healthcare is not shared by the rest of the country. The most practical agenda for any administration would be to push for common sense reforms like children’s coverage and acceptance of pre-existing conditions, and leave it at that.

As for the public not really knowing what’s good for them, this is something that each party only seems to believe when their own policies are involved. They rarely give this benefit of the doubt to the other side. Don’t forget that advocates of the Bush wars frequently invoke long term benefits that “the public doesn’t see yet.” That didn’t stop the left from opposing them from day one.

I also think we should not let hindsight bias entirely affect our judgment of a decision made for its time. The voters were right when they gave the already Democratic US Congress a mandate in 2008 and the Democrats delivered the goods, however half-assedly. Perhaps voters didn't like too much change at once and broke for GOP this time. And perhaps, when the majority of the changes actually go into effect the voters will like come to appreciate them.

We also should not ignore the urgent political reality of keeping your base happy. There is nothing worse than a disaffected base. In other words, if Democrats sat on their asses and did nothing, they could have lost a 100 seats even in the bluest of blue states. Healthcare may not have been a priority for the "fickle" independent voter who swung for GOP this time, but it was for the base of the Democratic party and it may have been enough not to lose the Senate. Remember, Democrats gained the majority not in 2008 but in 2006 and they had very little to show for the previous term in which they were in majority except an unpopular TARP program. The thinking at the time was, we have had our corporate welfare, what do people get? They got a healthcare bill that ended up mostly being an insurance giveaway (with a few measly bones thrown towards Democrats such as removal of pre-existing conditions) but in politics you celebrate anything as an achievement. I think your discussion with Mehdi actually proves this point in particular regarding Obama: Healthcare was an issue that he inevitably had to tackle and could not afford to let go. Healthcare was not an urgent matter for Obama personally. In fact, that is true if one looks at his campaign. Obama did not have a concrete healthcare plan even after he was elected. It changed every day. But he was forced into adopting the issue because of base pressures and he took the issue on very unenthusiastically.
Sitting and doing nothing would have certainly hurt the dems, but pushing the wrong agenda at the wrong time turned out to be equally damaging. The mandate given to them in 2008 was centered on the economy and wasn't a carte blanc to push just anything on their agenda, just as the mandate given to republicans now has little to do with their positions on stem cell or gay marriage, and they would be stupid to spend any considerable time on those.

Moving to the center at the expense of the base doesn’t necessarily translate to defeat. Clinton looked like a one-termer until he did exactly that. There is a reason why candidates pander to the base in the primaries but then move to the center to win the election. Because the core bases of these parties are too small to win on their own. They’re nowhere close to a majority. Also, for every disaffected ideologue that chooses to stay home on election day, there are plenty of partisans on both sides who will still vote the party line regardless of the circumstances. Obama may have had to address his party’s fixation on healthcare at some point, but this was absolutely the wrong time. Even if he’d pushed head on with it, the energized left would have still been outnumbered by the enraged, reawakened right (conservatives do have bigger numbers). And then he would have independents to worry about. Those two groups together would have neutralized any partisan goodwill.

I also think that keeping the base happy, while important, shouldn’t come at the expense of alienating or exploiting the rest of the electorate.

As an independent, I certainly wouldn’t want a scenario where my vote is gained with false promises planned to be abandoned after election day to please a small but loud minority. Not to say that this doesn’t happen already, but I wouldn’t want it to become an acceptable part of the process.
 

Natural

IPL Player
May 18, 2003
2,559
3
#49
I think the problem lies in the fact that Obama tried to work for 20% of the people who dont have healthcare and didn't do much for 80% who were asking for unemployment to go down.

but the fact of the matter is that, the 80% would benefit solely from a healthier society as a whole. that's something that a society with a long term vision would understand. most people only want immediate fixes and dont look at things in a long run.
 

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#50
Obama has been very successful in his agenda -
the problem is that his agenda did not include anything to benefit America.
And he is going to continue with his agenda - as he said, from here on he will try to do a better job in his PR and communications.......lol as if he has been doing anything else. I guess his team is now planning to buy Fox too.

Dear Natural - Iran was devastated under the excuse of helping Moztazafin (the poor).
 

beystr 2.0

Bench Warmer
Jul 9, 2006
1,983
0
#51
To bring back the " Car analogy"..How is it that we say a car out there without proper insurance is a risk and hazard to public..but a person without health insurance is not ?..so what if the gov. pays the Health insurance of the unemployed..? may be instead of Unemployment benefits gov. should pay the health insurance..?..why do we get so sensetive about the waste there and not in military..?..the waste in banking.?.the waste in election industries..?
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#52
HAhahaha. I guess they should should have gotten rid of unemployment insurance and let 40 to 50 million of the working americans become homeless and hungry due to the action of the wealthy and the bankers who became very wealthy through fraud destroying the economy? On top of that give these wealthy big tax cuts too.

That would have been really good for the economy.

His plan did not go far enough but I think it does make sure the insurance companies have to cover people rather than their owners to become billionaires while refusing to cover people with problems. A small step towards the right direction.


Obama has been very successful in his agenda -
the problem is that his agenda did not include anything to benefit America.
And he is going to continue with his agenda - as he said, from here on he will try to do a better job in his PR and communications.......lol as if he has been doing anything else. I guess his team is now planning to buy Fox too.

Dear Natural - Iran was devastated under the excuse of helping Moztazafin (the poor).
 

beystr 2.0

Bench Warmer
Jul 9, 2006
1,983
0
#54
Ye..Lordi jon..I didn't mean to abolish unemployment benefit..it was just for sake of compairing gov. subsidies..

I would think sooner or later all progressive societies will have mandatory health insurance coverage from birth to death..its a must for a country to monitor the heath of its citizens and keep'em healthy for overall good of the whole country.
 

Zob Ahan

Elite Member
Feb 4, 2005
17,481
2,233
#55
Ardy jaan, I did not mean that they would literally hand bags to the Americans. When the Fed buys bonds the purpose is to lower the long-term interest rates. As a result the 30 year mortgage rates come down. In fact the reason 30 year mortgage rates are down to such levels is directly because of Fed's activities. This means that each household gets say $100 a month. This money is from the Fed.

Fed's way of distributing money is crude. This has great advantages and some disadvantages. Still though, the point is that, the average American benefits from Fed's theft from foreigners. Of course the foreigners do not have to be in the position they are, they just insist to, because of their own reasons. In case of the Chinese, it is because their government is after power and does not much care for the welfare of its citizens.
FP jan, China for the 1st time ever has invested more in hard assets and commodities than US gov't bonds. They are not sitting around and doing nothing. This is a good read:
http://online.barrons.com/article/S...290564950892.html#articleTabs_panel_article=1
 
Oct 18, 2002
7,941
0
704 Houser
#57
While there is a point to be made about the knee-jerk nature of the electorate, I think in this particular case they have actually been quite consistent. Most Americans just don’t want socialized healthcare. They rejected it in the 90s, and they did it again this year. Both private and universal systems have their flaws, and I think the Democrats just need to come to terms with the reality that their vision for healthcare is not shared by the rest of the country. The most practical agenda for any administration would be to push for common sense reforms like children’s coverage and acceptance of pre-existing conditions, and leave it at that.

As for the public not really knowing what’s good for them, this is something that each party only seems to believe when their own policies are involved. They rarely give this benefit of the doubt to the other side. Don’t forget that advocates of the Bush wars frequently invoke long term benefits that “the public doesn’t see yet.” That didn’t stop the left from opposing them from day one.
Dear IZ, I am not sure why you are interpreting the result of this election as an accurate measure public's opposition to universal healthcare. I am a bit confused by your attempt to merge different ideas into a single concept. For the sake of clarity universal =/= socialized. PPACA is a lot more private than socialized (if you consider subsidies benefiting private insurers equivalent to socialism). The insurance mandate was put in at the request of the insurance lobby and it has no socialized components without a robust public option. We already have a care system that is a lot more socialized than what congress passed in this country and it is reasonably popular. It's called medicare.

Furthermore, in the opinion polls that I saw during the healthcare debate, public support for the most socialized proposal, the public option, was as high as 70%. Though, I can see how "socialized" healthcare would not fly with the public if the question was framed that way. I think if you add socialized to anything, the American public will likely oppose it. You couldn't even sell free socialized ice cream here because the public's aversion towards the term socialism is too deeply rooted. We have had a tragic yet extensive history of this kind of crazy talk from certifiable idiots like this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnLa1BvtaxM&feature=related"]YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks out Against Socialized Medicine[/ame]

As to your point about public not knowing what's good for them. I think a lot of people are probably unhappy with what was ultimately passed and many of them dislike it because they don't think it went far enough. There are many people whose opposition to the act is not on the principle of socialized care but rather its cost. Medicare was also unpopular and deeply contentious when it was passed. Should we delay any debate on unpopular issues until the public is ready for them? What about social security? The Dems will not touch that with a 10 foot pole and it will certainly fall on a Republican congress to do something about it and they will pay a heavy political price for it whenever they do. The only viable solution to the insolvency of that program is asking rich voters who have paid into the system to opt out in favor of tax breaks or privatized investment accounts but take a hit in the process. Should we wait forever because independent centrist seniors (who despite the myth don't all vote Democratic) will never be ready?

Still, let's say for the sake of argument that your claim is true, that the thumping the Dems received was primarily an indication of how unpopular the healthcare act was. So, if the Republicans, in the next two years, concentrate their efforts on defeating, defunding, repealing and replacing obamacare as they like to call it, they will win the voters' approval. If that is so, from a Democratic standpoint, I can already see a winning platform for the next election cycle. My own hunch is that repealing "obamacare" is NOT a priority for the swing voters and if the Republicans go after it aggressively it will backfire on them too. I believe Republicans are in a really tough spot because for them repealing PPACA is a base issue and a tea party priority.
 
Aug 27, 2005
8,688
0
Band e 209
#58
Forgive me for being simplistic...but why can't we do the same thing we do with cars in USA..all cars in all states ( I think) have to have liability insurance..the third party thing..and if u don't u get fined and even can go to jail in a fatal accident...now why can't a form of liability health insurance become mandatory for everyone..one that covers a persons medical bills in excess of $1000( for example) per yr...and governemnt only makes sure insurance companies are within law & ethics..just like car insurance.
There is no liability regarding personal health, unless some one has a contagious disease which in that case it will be the responsibility of the State to contain it under public safety out side of personal health care infrastructure.
 

IranZamin

IPL Player
Feb 17, 2006
3,367
2
#60
Dear IZ, I am not sure why you are interpreting the result of this election as an accurate measure public's opposition to universal healthcare. I am a bit confused by your attempt to merge different ideas into a single concept. For the sake of clarity universal =/= socialized. PPACA is a lot more private than socialized (if you consider subsidies benefiting private insurers equivalent to socialism). The insurance mandate was put in at the request of the insurance lobby and it has no socialized components without a robust public option. We already have a care system that is a lot more socialized than what congress passed in this country and it is reasonably popular. It's called medicare.
FZ jan, I don’t disagree with any of these points. When I wrote “socialized”, I used the term as defined by Americans which means pretty much anything that involves raising taxes. But of course that doesn’t mean all reactions are knee-jerk. Some oppose the increased tax on investment which they consider detrimental to economic recovery. A large number object to its cost as you said, or believe it will result in lower quality of care.

At the end of the day, healthcare overhaul wasn’t what gave the dems their mandate in 2008. It should not have been such a focal point of Obama’s presidency.


Still, let's say for the sake of argument that your claim is true, that the thumping the Dems received was primarily an indication of how unpopular the healthcare act was. So, if the Republicans, in the next two years, concentrate their efforts on defeating, defunding, repealing and replacing obamacare as they like to call it, they will win the voters' approval. If that is so, from a Democratic standpoint, I can already see a winning platform for the next election cycle. My own hunch is that repealing "obamacare" is NOT a priority for the swing voters and if the Republicans go after it aggressively it will backfire on them too. I believe Republicans are in a really tough spot because for them repealing PPACA is a base issue and a tea party priority.
I don’t think I’ve suggested healthcare was the singular issue of the election. The opposition to Obamacare was amplified by the state of economy. Do I think it would have still been a decisive issue if there had been tangible steps toward economic recovery? No I don’t. Economy trumps everything else and it will again in two years. And I do agree that if the only GOP achievement by 2012 is obstruction of Obamacare, they will be in trouble.

In hindsight, it seems the democrats simply misinterpreted their huge win in 2008. They saw the magnitude of it as not a sign of desperation by a country trying to change economic direction (just like this year), but as an endorsement of their entire agenda. I remember all the obituaries being written on “the death of conservatism” by people who apparently thought a center-right country can just shift to the left overnight! They overlooked the fact that at the point the economy tanked two months before election day, Obama was actually trailing McCain.

The economy was the main reason the dems swept everything in 08, and it should have been far and away the highest domestic priority in Obama’s first two years. That it wasn’t, indicates a miscalculation on the part of Obama and the democratic base which ended up costing them the midterms.