Canada's High House Prices Held Up By Phony Appraisals -- Taxpayers On Hook, Report Says

Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#1
Not sure if anyone has seen this (it's a week old), but it's definitely the most gloomy article I have read to date on Canada's housing problems. Definitely worth a read and possibly some frowns for our Canadian members. I for one had no idea we, the tax payers, were securitizing the big banks' mortgages!


Canada's High House Prices Held Up By Phony Appraisals -- Taxpayers On Hook, Report Says

The Huffington Post Canada
By Daniel Tencer
07/23/2013


The “securitization” of mortgages that many economists blame for the housing collapse and subsequent financial crisis in the U.S. is now a runaway problem in Canada, says a new study that also casts doubt on whether Canadians can trust the house price information they are seeing. The study from Canso Investment Counsel, a corporate bond management firm, says mortgage securitization — bundling mortgages together and selling them to investors — has spiralled out of control in Canada in recent years.

Many economists blamed the process for the collapse of the U.S. housing market, because lenders didn’t have to worry about the ability of borrowers to pay in the long term — they would simply unload the risk onto other investors. (A concept known among economists as “moral hazard.”) In Canada, the securitization of government-backed mortgages (mortgages that have been insured by the CMHC, or other insurers such as Genworth) has exploded since the early 2000s, when the Canadian Mortgage Bond program was created and the CMHC lifted its $250,000 ceiling on insured mortgages, allowing banks to securitize most of their mortgages, the report said.

It boomed again in 2009, when the Insured Mortgage Purchase Program (IMPP) came into effect in the midst of the recession. That program saw the CMHC, the government-run mortgage insurer, start buying securitized mortgages from banks — the same mortgages it insured. “Why the federal government would assume all the credit risk of a mortgage and then buy it at a healthy premium as a ‘riskless’ asset is an interesting question,” the report states, hinting that the whole process may just be a scam designed to hold up the housing market artificially.

The result, the report said, is that the proportion of government-insured mortgages in Canada went from 30 per cent in 1988 to 75 per cent in 2013. In other words, taxpayers are on the hook for three-quarters of Canadian mortgages, should something go wrong in the market. “We believe the IMPP will eventually go down into the annals of Canadian history as a ‘stealth rescue’ of the Canadian banking system that morphed the mortgage market into a credit bubble of immense proportions,” the report says.

HOUSE PRICES ‘GAMED’?

The report also suggests Canadian house prices are being artificially inflated by an industry appraisal system that conveniently over-inflates the acceptable price range for a given house. The automated system is known as EMILI and is operated by the CMHC. It’s a computer algorithm that allows mortgage lenders to check the asking price of a house against a database to see if the price is reasonable for that market. It looks principally at square footage and previous sale prices in the area.

But the Canso report says this valuation system is susceptible to manipulation — and is being manipulated. “It is our understanding from real estate professionals and bankers that there has been extensive “gaming” of this system and excessive prices generated by this system,” the report says. “If a higher price is required for CMHC insurance coverage, the square footage, which is input by the lender and supplied by the mortgage broker, can be increased as required.”

All of this has led to what the report calls “the great Canadian debt binge” — unprecedented levels of household debt driven by record-breaking house prices. “Canadians will suffer from withdrawal symptoms from their insured mortgage credit dependency. The extent of the Canadian government subsidy to both the banking sector and Canadian homeowners through government guaranteed mortgage insurance is huge. This was not always the case,” the report says.

The report’s conclusions are almost certainly going to be challenged by the economists at Canada’s major banks, who have declared a “soft landing” in the housing market, as last year’s slowdown in sales failed to turn into a market rout. But the report suggests the real housing collapse is yet to come. The latest housing data has been particularly hard to interpret, but it does suggest a market that is out of balance. Data released last week, for example, showed house prices in Toronto jumping an unexpected 8.1 per cent over the past year. But data released a day later showed home sales in the city falling 30 per cent over the past year.

That would suggest a housing market where supply and demand have become fundamentally detached from prices. For Canso, all evidence points to a serious market correction. “We hope very much to be proven wrong, but the analysis is clear. Canada borrowed its way out of the 2009 recession by stoking our residential housing market to absurd levels. We cannot afford the houses we are living in.”
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#2
How can that be? I thought Canada was praised for NOT doing what was done in the US. Looks like you have a Fannie Mae to. I hold them solely responsible for the housing collapse here. When a lender can turn around and sell your note to another hapless "investor", they won't care about the risk anymore. What makes this possible are the likes of Fannie Mae.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#3
How can that be? I thought Canada was praised for NOT doing what was done in the US. Looks like you have a Fannie Mae to. I hold them solely responsible for the housing collapse here. When a lender can turn around and sell your note to another hapless "investor", they won't care about the risk anymore. What makes this possible are the likes of Fannie Mae.
That's what I thought too bro. I have to admit that I feel pretty stupid that this is the first time I've heard about this and I'm as shocked as you are, if not more. I thought our soft landing (or crash depending on who you ask) was going to just hurt the idiots (individual investors and homeowners) who haven't heeded the warnings and overstretched themselves, but apparently I'm the one who's ultimately going to be on the hook for their stupidity as well! At least you guys stopped bailing out the banks a long time ago - it looks like we never stopped bailing them out! :(
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#4
For Canada to go through what the US did almost a decade later is unbelievable. Do you have a young Barack Obama hiding somewhere too? They usually surface after a housing crash but instead of fixing it they embark on nationalizing healthcare, but you have done that already.
 

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#5
It is all about "Construction" related Job market. No construction no jobs - too much construction, collapse of real estate market.....take your poison.
BTW - Ross Perot had the correct vision on the subject......we need to implement it soon or there will be serious collapse of the middle class all over the place.
and no Obama has zero interest in fixing anything....he is just here to oversee the collapse of America.
 

Zob Ahan

Elite Member
Feb 4, 2005
17,481
2,233
#6
How can that be? I thought Canada was praised for NOT doing what was done in the US. Looks like you have a Fannie Mae to. I hold them solely responsible for the housing collapse here. When a lender can turn around and sell your note to another hapless "investor", they won't care about the risk anymore. What makes this possible are the likes of Fannie Mae.
They do if they have to buy back. Try getting a Fannie loan today.
 

InDaMoneyz

IPL Player
Mar 13, 2007
2,966
0
#9
Have heard this nonsense for years now. Anyone who has lived in canada and has followed the rael estate there would know that prices are determined by the market that is influenced by many factors mainly new money.
Toronto mayhave the stongest housing market in the world and the talks of a collapse or burst has been there for years going back at least 6-7 years only for real estate to climb an avg of 10% year over year! In fact even a 20-30% correction (which will never happen unless interest rates jump above 8% - which will never happen) will not correct or dent a toronto housing market which has seen a 100% appreciation over the past 6 years.

Banks, CMHC and governments already enforced many rules to curb down the prices - including the amortization down to 25 years, taxes, insurance policies, complete visibility into all clients holding and lendings and many more and they hardly made any difference in prices.

The biggest reason for this and we all know now is the new money that comes into this city. Nearly 250k new immigrant arrive in canada of which over 100k typically land in toronto. these immigrant are not the same immigrants that came 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. these are immigrants with serious money who for most part qualified based on their finacnial status and through what they can invest in the country. The new asian, iranian, jewish,....immigrants that comes here are already rich and the first thing they do is to buy a house here. In the next 2 or 3 years you wont be able to find a house in toronto for under a $million dollars - in a city 3-4 times bigger than tehran!

The condo market however on the hand is inflated and will be in trouble for various reasons. Its not something i would personally invest in but even that has not seen a serious turn of event.

What I know by now is that certain markets will never go down simply because of what they are and the demand they generate. cities like San francisco, manhattan, toronto, chicago are as secure as ever when it comes down to real estate and will be in future.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#10
The biggest reason for this and we all know now is the new money that comes into this city. Nearly 250k new immigrant arrive in canada of which over 100k typically land in toronto.
Isn't that the case with all bubbles though bro - new money keeps coming in until at some point no more new money comes in and the whole thing crumbles down?! I do agree with you that the Toronto housing market does not seem over-heated as a whole (except for some pre-dominantly Iranian/Chinese areas) and compared to other large sister cities like London and New York, but there are several things I think we need to take into account. Regardless of immigration, both Canada and Ontario's population growth rate is only 1.0% - that's 345,000 people per year for Canada. Ontario's share of immigration settlement is exactly to the same proportion as its population as a percentage of Canada's - 40%.

So, let's just look at Canada as a whole. For the past few years, we have been averaging just around 200,000 housing starts a year. That's a dwelling for every 1.7 people when compared to population growth. That seems like an awfully low number to me and I have a hard time accepting that all those housing starts are actually getting absorbed as first homes, rather than being investment properties or piling up on inventory. Also noteworthy, the population is aging and a lot of older people living in LTC's drop out of the housing market, so in reality their numbers should be taken off population growth when analyzing the housing market.

Overall, I think a lot of the condos have been snapped up for investments and that's why the condo market is on a more shaky footing than housing. Having said all that, I agree that we're most likely not going to 20-30% price drops in home prices based on current trends - at least not in Toronto. Vancouver and Victoria are seriously over-priced compared to Toronto (20% for Vancouver), so that's a whole different story and prices have already stopped dropping there - but Toronto will most likely have a soft landing only and because of the condo market.
 

Bijans

Legionnaire
Oct 18, 2002
6,654
3
San Diego, CA
#11
That's what I thought too bro. I have to admit that I feel pretty stupid that this is the first time I've heard about this and I'm as shocked as you are, if not more. I thought our soft landing (or crash depending on who you ask) was going to just hurt the idiots (individual investors and homeowners) who haven't heeded the warnings and overstretched themselves, but apparently I'm the one who's ultimately going to be on the hook for their stupidity as well! At least you guys stopped bailing out the banks a long time ago - it looks like we never stopped bailing them out! :(
More reason for your to move here once for all ;)... honestly that's sad...
 

InDaMoneyz

IPL Player
Mar 13, 2007
2,966
0
#12
Isn't that the case with all bubbles though bro - new money keeps coming in until at some point no more new money comes in and the whole thing crumbles down?! I do agree with you that the Toronto housing market does not seem over-heated as a whole (except for some pre-dominantly Iranian/Chinese areas) and compared to other large sister cities like London and New York, but there are several things I think we need to take into account. Regardless of immigration, both Canada and Ontario's population growth rate is only 1.0% - that's 345,000 people per year for Canada. Ontario's share of immigration settlement is exactly to the same proportion as its population as a percentage of Canada's - 40%.

So, let's just look at Canada as a whole. For the past few years, we have been averaging just around 200,000 housing starts a year. That's a dwelling for every 1.7 people when compared to population growth. That seems like an awfully low number to me and I have a hard time accepting that all those housing starts are actually getting absorbed as first homes, rather than being investment properties or piling up on inventory. Also noteworthy, the population is aging and a lot of older people living in LTC's drop out of the housing market, so in reality their numbers should be taken off population growth when analyzing the housing market.

Overall, I think a lot of the condos have been snapped up for investments and that's why the condo market is on a more shaky footing than housing. Having said all that, I agree that we're most likely not going to 20-30% price drops in home prices based on current trends - at least not in Toronto. Vancouver and Victoria are seriously over-priced compared to Toronto (20% for Vancouver), so that's a whole different story and prices have already stopped dropping there - but Toronto will most likely have a soft landing only and because of the condo market.
Many things you mentioned are true, but people are missing one things. With most cities and regions - for example southern florida (where I have a condo and am just starting to level off to my pre 2008 purchase price) people purchase property as an investment or as a seasonal home, toronto on the other hand is the final destination for many who invest here.
For every immigrant with a million dollar who comes here there are 10 that are waiting. I have been to many places and i know that toronto is truly the city of future for affluent future immigrants. they come to toronto because this is where they want their kids to be not only from opportunity perspective but also from a social aspect.

This doesnt mean toronto with its terrible gridlock and some stiff laws is the best city in the world as I personally still prefer places like new york, sanfran, san diego, chicago,...as I prefer less government, more earning potential and greater number of choices and opportunites, but toronto feels like home like no other place in the world. It is as close of a utopic (is that the right word?) society as you can find in the world at the moment (forget europe , its not a place for us and there is no opportunities there). So when i speak to chinese real estate agenst and they tell me many rich chinese will end up here and want to come here primarily because of canadian society and mentality and because of its weather (thats right they love the cold here appearantly) I do believe them.

With regards to housing starts, they dont quite work that way. GTA housing starts are at around 70k, we have 90-100k new people coming in to the city (not counting other canadians people moving into city). But of these the overwhelming majority are condos desgined for condo living and for young adults primarily. these young adults will start a family sooner or later and they will want a single detached home in toronto with open space to raise a family. the demand for single detached homes in toronto and even some of its suburbs like richmond hill, oakville, aurora, ethobic, thonhill, ...will only get greater pushing prices higher - i can almost guarantee you this. BUT the condo market is an entirely different story that must be looked at separetly.

So as it stands I still think toronto housing is a great investment (if you can afford it), and I rather have a property here than anywhere else, country is fairely solid, its banks are most stable in the world, it has tremendous resources, it has a healthy workforce, no international issues, has bunch of new money coming in, everyone pretty much gets along and loves everyone else and is one hour from new york and 2 hours from miami ! where else should i go ?
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#14
...the demand for single detached homes in toronto and even some of its suburbs like richmond hill, oakville, aurora, ethobic, thonhill, ...will only get greater pushing prices higher - i can almost guarantee you this. BUT the condo market is an entirely different story that must be looked at separetly.
Yeah, 100% with you on the detached homes my good man and the condo market being somewhat in trouble.

On the immigration issue though, Toronto is not the first choice for many immigrants because it's a utopian 21st century city with great infrastructure and enormous entrepreneurial potential. It WAS the first choice because Canada had and still has the easiest immigration laws in the G20, if not the whole of the Western world. Until a few years ago, you could move your whole family to Canada with $60k (if I recall the amount correctly), live in Halifax for a few months, forego your $60k and move to Toronto - no questions asked! 27 years ago when we moved to Canada, it cost anywhere between $40-$80k for a family of 4 to smuggle their way into Canada and that was 86 dollars not 2006 and it was illegal versus being a fully landed immigrant.

Even now, you can move here as a migrant worker, skilled worker or I believe with $200k CDN with your whole family, no questions asked. As a comparison, do you know how much it would cost to move to Slovenia or Bulgaria (not exactly top destinations)? Double that amount! Still, a lot of rich Russian and Arab immigrants are choosing those destinations and with Spain's new residency permit with a 500,000 Euro total real estate investment, we're going to see a major shift in where rich Russian and Chinese immigrants are going to go - 2 of the 3 main groups that were driving Toronto's immigration. The 3rd group being Iranians which I can tell you with certainly has completely dried up - I have 3 friends who word in that field in Toronto and their business has dropped to 10% of what it was 3 years ago (i.e. 90% drop). No sane Chinese person is going to pick a 2 million dollar home around low-income housing in Willowdale over villa of a similar size in Spain for a 1/4 of the cost going forward - particularly when there are no minimum stay requirements in this new scheme in Spain. Belgium, Cyprus, Portugal, Austria, Malta, Greece and Ireland all have similar schemes now to lure these rich immigrants with rock bottom prices on real estate - perfect for investors. Hell, I can't say I'm not considering a move myself! ;)

That's going to leave us with all low skilled, uneducated, low net worth immigrants from Eastern Europe, South and South East Asia (although Indians are a little more educated that the rest), Latin America and Africa. Not exactly the groups to be driving high-end real estate in Toronto IMHO.
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#15
Even now, you can move here as a migrant worker, skilled worker or I believe with $200k CDN with your whole family, no questions asked.
Do they know this in Iran? They are dropping that much on a Panamera, and there are a TON of them in Tehran. If all it took was money, you could not fly enough planes out of Iran to Canada. I also find the large percentage of unusually rich immigrants to Canada strange. Are you screening for wealth? In the US it seems like they go and seek out the poorest, least skilled people to come over. The whole lottery system is a ridiculous way to grant citizenship. A large segment of policy makers consider US citizenship as some sort of human right that must be portioned equally.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#16
Do they know this in Iran? They are dropping that much on a Panamera, and there are a TON of them in Tehran. If all it took was money, you could not fly enough planes out of Iran to Canada. I also find the large percentage of unusually rich immigrants to Canada strange. Are you screening for wealth? In the US it seems like they go and seek out the poorest, least skilled people to come over. The whole lottery system is a ridiculous way to grant citizenship. A large segment of policy makers consider US citizenship as some sort of human right that must be portioned equally.
Yeah, of course they do. But how many people have that type of money now? Don't forget, you pay $200k to the CDN government and that's non-refundable. You still need a few hundred thousand more to establish yourself here, put a down-payment on a house, buy a car and open a business. All in all, you probably need at least $0.6 mil to make a semi-comfortable move here as a "rich" immigrant. How many people do you think remain in Iran with that kind of money, especially after they took a 50-65% hit to their assets in the past two years?!

So yeah, we are screening for wealth, but we have a lot of poor immigrants coming in too (import wives, families, migrant workers, etc.) - it's so bad in fact that sometimes I think we have a "rejects wanted" sign on our embassies! ;) I think IDM is greatly overstating the net worth of the people coming in. We did/do have a lot of rich Iranians, Chinese, Russians, etc., but I think the ratio of high net worth immigrants to all immigrants is still less than 20%. Overall, I can safely say that Toronto no longer has much of a Canadian identity anymore, not that it ever really did - You have to drive at least an hour to remind yourself that you're living in an anglo-sax country! ;)
 

InDaMoneyz

IPL Player
Mar 13, 2007
2,966
0
#17
Do they know this in Iran? They are dropping that much on a Panamera, and there are a TON of them in Tehran. If all it took was money, you could not fly enough planes out of Iran to Canada. I also find the large percentage of unusually rich immigrants to Canada strange. Are you screening for wealth? In the US it seems like they go and seek out the poorest, least skilled people to come over. The whole lottery system is a ridiculous way to grant citizenship. A large segment of policy makers consider US citizenship as some sort of human right that must be portioned equally.

For large part the most recent immigrant to canada are wealthy and the requirements are greater than the 200k bihonar is mentioning. There are also tons of new iranains that are coming here. From one of the local MPs who is iranian here I have heard uptp 5000 families a year so it is substantial and yes more want to come, but allocation of immigrants are also based on continent now. Yes there are also many immigrants who come here that dont have money but thats by design and by a specific point system. Canada for example is required to fill in certain number of political/social spots and also fil certain number of needed skill workers - blue color workers. Many others also are realtives who have been on waiting lists for years. But for everyone of these like i said there are 5 chinese millionaires who are planning on coming here (these are based on research studies completed by some of canadas banks I have worked with internally).

Remember in states the need is different. Immigrant laboureres are priority but dont think Us is not getting enough rich people coming in. Contrary to this probably the richest in the world still flock to US first and foremost. US is still number one destination of the richest russian, mexicans, brazilians, asians, and even europeans. All you have to do is to go down to florida and speak to some real estate agents in palm beach, fortlauderdale and miami and ask them who is snapping up those $40million mansions and 30million$ yachts.
 
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InDaMoneyz

IPL Player
Mar 13, 2007
2,966
0
#18
Yeah, 100% with you on the detached homes my good man and the condo market being somewhat in trouble.

On the immigration issue though, Toronto is not the first choice for many immigrants because it's a utopian 21st century city with great infrastructure and enormous entrepreneurial potential. It WAS the first choice because Canada had and still has the easiest immigration laws in the G20, if not the whole of the Western world. Until a few years ago, you could move your whole family to Canada with $60k (if I recall the amount correctly), live in Halifax for a few months, forego your $60k and move to Toronto - no questions asked! 27 years ago when we moved to Canada, it cost anywhere between $40-$80k for a family of 4 to smuggle their way into Canada and that was 86 dollars not 2006 and it was illegal versus being a fully landed immigrant.

Even now, you can move here as a migrant worker, skilled worker or I believe with $200k CDN with your whole family, no questions asked. As a comparison, do you know how much it would cost to move to Slovenia or Bulgaria (not exactly top destinations)? Double that amount! Still, a lot of rich Russian and Arab immigrants are choosing those destinations and with Spain's new residency permit with a 500,000 Euro total real estate investment, we're going to see a major shift in where rich Russian and Chinese immigrants are going to go - 2 of the 3 main groups that were driving Toronto's immigration. The 3rd group being Iranians which I can tell you with certainly has completely dried up - I have 3 friends who word in that field in Toronto and their business has dropped to 10% of what it was 3 years ago (i.e. 90% drop). No sane Chinese person is going to pick a 2 million dollar home around low-income housing in Willowdale over villa of a similar size in Spain for a 1/4 of the cost going forward - particularly when there are no minimum stay requirements in this new scheme in Spain. Belgium, Cyprus, Portugal, Austria, Malta, Greece and Ireland all have similar schemes now to lure these rich immigrants with rock bottom prices on real estate - perfect for investors. Hell, I can't say I'm not considering a move myself! ;)

That's going to leave us with all low skilled, uneducated, low net worth immigrants from Eastern Europe, South and South East Asia (although Indians are a little more educated that the rest), Latin America and Africa. Not exactly the groups to be driving high-end real estate in Toronto IMHO.
Dude I can’t believe you just said this! There is nowhere in the world like north America - not even close! except for a nice trip there is nothing in europe for an immigrant looking to make it big in a nonjudgmental world.
You will always be a foreigner and just a 'guest' in Europe and I know that first hand because I grew up there and have half of my family still in France and Austria and Germany and Sweden. they are very successful but at the same time they have no connection with these countries and germans, french, austrians and ...even though they have a good life there. Bro they still make monkey chants in stadiums in italy and spain and etc.. on national TV! can you imagine this in US or canada!? they are instinctively racists and narcissistic - specially the southern Europeans - Italians and Spanish and trust me when I say you don’t want your kids to grow up there with them in their schools. Us and canada are truely home, destination where you can truly feel like you are not judged, questioned and can be who and what you wanna be. When was the last time anyone here asked you where you are from!? In all my years of travel to europe i have yet to see a first generation iranian who is proud of their adopted countries and waves their flag. Here you can see this all the time. Trust me I have very close connections with europe and know this very well.

At the same time economically you gotta be out of your mind to choose europe to northamerica! First rule of thumb: everything in north america is bigger and better in europe. Even your average lower middle class here have a 2 door garage single large home with 2-3 cars parked in front of them. There are more golf courses and fresh water lakes with amazing fishing in ontario than all of spain, italy, slovenia and austria combined! I just came back from monte carlo, cannes and southern france about 4-5 months ago and after a week couldnt wait to be back here. there is no where like Us and canada and you think people with money may consider austria, slovenia, or spain or north america to move to!? yes if they are complete morons ! well I shouldnt say that , maybe they like living in tight, crowded apartments not being able to drive to places and pay tons of money for a bit of food in some socialist country who considers them a guest! going from north america to europe is truly like going from a big city to a small village.

by the way my wife is of german and slovenian ancestry and I was in germany, lublijana and kopper 2 years ago, beautiful places but you must be nuts if you wanted to move there to live, everyone was asking about Canada and US and admiration and fascination with Canada specially made me so proud. Never forget what one of my new employees from prague said last year, he said you know why I love Canada, because it tuned me from a racist who hated jews, gypsis, muslims, other europeans, gay or people of other religions to one that loved everyone who has evolved and became a better person! That’s whay here does to you. So no toronto and Us are any immgrants first choices not because its easy (which is the case anyways) but because it is by far an obvious choice financially and socially.

Oh and one last thing, people in north america are by far the best looking and most stylish people ein the world. I have been to spain and Italy and france and I couldn’t believe how ugly people for most parts are compared to here. Nowhere in the world can you find people who look like those in Vancouver, montreal, Miami, san Francisco, new York,…..
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#19
Dude I can’t believe you just said this! There is nowhere in the world like north America - not even close! except for a nice trip there is nothing in europe for an immigrant looking to make it big in a nonjudgmental world.
You will always be a foreigner and just a 'guest' in Europe and I know that first hand because I grew up there and have half of my family still in France and Austria and Germany and Sweden. they are very successful but at the same time they have no connection with these countries and germans, french, austrians and ...even though they have a good life there. Bro they still make monkey chants in stadiums in italy and spain and etc.. on national TV! can you imagine this in US or canada!? they are instinctively racists and narcissistic - specially the southern Europeans - Italians and Spanish and trust me when I say you don’t want your kids to grow up there with them in their schools. Us and canada are truely home, destination where you can truly feel like you are not judged, questioned and can be who and what you wanna be. When was the last time anyone here asked you where you are from!? In all my years of travel to europe i have yet to see a first generation iranian who is proud of their adopted countries and waves their flag. Here you can see this all the time. Trust me I have very close connections with europe and know this very well.

At the same time economically you gotta be out of your mind to choose europe to northamerica! First rule of thumb: everything in north america is bigger and better in europe. Even your average lower middle class here have a 2 door garage single large home with 2-3 cars parked in front of them. There are more golf courses and fresh water lakes with amazing fishing in ontario than all of spain, italy, slovenia and austria combined! I just came back from monte carlo, cannes and southern france about 4-5 months ago and after a week couldnt wait to be back here. there is no where like Us and canada and you think people with money may consider austria, slovenia, or spain or north america to move to!? yes if they are complete morons ! well I shouldnt say that , maybe they like living in tight, crowded apartments not being able to drive to places and pay tons of money for a bit of food in some socialist country who considers them a guest! going from north america to europe is truly like going from a big city to a small village.

by the way my wife is of german and slovenian ancestry and I was in germany, lublijana and kopper 2 years ago, beautiful places but you must be nuts if you wanted to move there to live, everyone was asking about Canada and US and admiration and fascination with Canada specially made me so proud. Never forget what one of my new employees from prague said last year, he said you know why I love Canada, because it tuned me from a racist who hated jews, gypsis, muslims, other europeans, gay or people of other religions to one that loved everyone who has evolved and became a better person! That’s whay here does to you. So no toronto and Us are any immgrants first choices not because its easy (which is the case anyways) but because it is by far an obvious choice financially and socially.

Oh and one last thing, people in north america are by far the best looking and most stylish people ein the world. I have been to spain and Italy and france and I couldn’t believe how ugly people for most parts are compared to here. Nowhere in the world can you find people who look like those in Vancouver, montreal, Miami, san Francisco, new York,…..
Dude, I know you're joking around if you're saying people in N. America are the best looking and most stylish people in the world! Are you comparing Miami beach to some ghetto in Paris? You find Mexicans cute? For God's sake all the 3 main countries in N. America have obesity rates that are higher than the highest country in Western Europe (Great Britain). People go to work in a suit or dress with sneakers in Toronto! Yeah, people are stylish in Montreal, but that's because they consider themselves more European than N. American. And where in NY did you see a high concentration of good looking people - I saw some of the least stylish and scariest people I've seen in any big city in the world and I'm not talking about Harlem or the Bronx, but Manhattan. Have you turned the TV on to see what our Mayor and Premier look like?! ;)

And Europe is not what it was in the 80's - things have changed. Italians and Greeks (much like Iranians) are very racist, yes. But even Italy has a black football player now. Half of Germany's team are Turks and Polacks for God's sake. The problem is that people who move to these countries don't want to absorb into their cultures and mix with the general population. In Toronto, we're okay with that - by having people come here who were riding bikes until yesterday and living in a small village in China or Iran, giving them a car and throwing them on the highway or letting them recreate Sichuan smack in the middle of the city. People live here for 30 years and can barely speak the language! Europeans have rules and aren't cool with that stuff. So naturally, someone who wants to still be Iranian or Chinese and not even learn the freakin' language will have an easier time here than in France or Germany or Spain. Someone who wants to incorporate themselves into that country and culture will have an easy time anywhere that has a distinct culture.

When was the last time someone asked me where I was from? The day before yesterday in Hornby! Not that I minded the question. And yes, Canadians are lovely people and probably the least racist and most accepting people in the world. Too bad, you can hardly find any of them in Toronto any more! Anglo-sax are now minorities in several cities. I just don't have the same rosy picture of Toronto that you do. It took 2 years to fix the 401 East bound exit at Yonge whereas the Spanish build 40 km of highway in 6 months! We're technologically, environmentally and culturally WAY behind the Europeans. The only thing we got going is like you said is making it big. If you're into the whole rat race and having a bigger house and faster car and other superficial things Toronto and N. America are great. But if you're into a lifestyle where you want to work to live (not live to work), this is not the place for you. When you have people moving back from here to Iran, India, China or Bangladesh, you know there are major issues.
 

InDaMoneyz

IPL Player
Mar 13, 2007
2,966
0
#20
Dude, I know you're joking around if you're saying people in N. America are the best looking and most stylish people in the world! Are you comparing Miami beach to some ghetto in Paris? You find Mexicans cute? For God's sake all the 3 main countries in N. America have obesity rates that are higher than the highest country in Western Europe (Great Britain). People go to work in a suit or dress with sneakers in Toronto! Yeah, people are stylish in Montreal, but that's because they consider themselves more European than N. American. And where in NY did you see a high concentration of good looking people - I saw some of the least stylish and scariest people I've seen in any big city in the world and I'm not talking about Harlem or the Bronx, but Manhattan. Have you turned the TV on to see what our Mayor and Premier look like?! ;)

And Europe is not what it was in the 80's - things have changed. Italians and Greeks (much like Iranians) are very racist, yes. But even Italy has a black football player now. Half of Germany's team are Turks and Polacks for God's sake. The problem is that people who move to these countries don't want to absorb into their cultures and mix with the general population. In Toronto, we're okay with that - by having people come here who were riding bikes until yesterday and living in a small village in China or Iran, giving them a car and throwing them on the highway or letting them recreate Sichuan smack in the middle of the city. People live here for 30 years and can barely speak the language! Europeans have rules and aren't cool with that stuff. So naturally, someone who wants to still be Iranian or Chinese and not even learn the freakin' language will have an easier time here than in France or Germany or Spain. Someone who wants to incorporate themselves into that country and culture will have an easy time anywhere that has a distinct culture.

When was the last time someone asked me where I was from? The day before yesterday in Hornby! Not that I minded the question. And yes, Canadians are lovely people and probably the least racist and most accepting people in the world. Too bad, you can hardly find any of them in Toronto any more! Anglo-sax are now minorities in several cities. I just don't have the same rosy picture of Toronto that you do. It took 2 years to fix the 401 East bound exit at Yonge whereas the Spanish build 40 km of highway in 6 months! We're technologically, environmentally and culturally WAY behind the Europeans. The only thing we got going is like you said is making it big. If you're into the whole rat race and having a bigger house and faster car and other superficial things Toronto and N. America are great. But if you're into a lifestyle where you want to work to live (not live to work), this is not the place for you. When you have people moving back from here to Iran, India, China or Bangladesh, you know there are major issues.
brother you must be some student and i bet you have never live in europe. European issue has nothing to do with immigrants not wanting to assimilate, having blacks or turks on your soccer team does not make you a non racist nor accepting, its much bigger and deeper than this. You need to go there and live there to see what it means, you have lived here too comfortable to know the issues those people have there.
We just spoke how people who come here are the rich immigrants for most part and now you are contradicting yourself by saying they rode bikes before coming here!lol. So all the russian, jewish, asian,..millionaires who are snapping up multi million dollar properties in toronto driving the prices up rode bikes before coming here!? lol. Im not sure if you are in touch with real happenings of this city.
Bankrupt spanish build their roads faster than canadians!? lol ...maybe thats cause canada has less population but has cities 10 times the size of spanish cities !? what does that even suggest!? im sure you can even find some faster street repairs in iran, what will that even say?

european live and canadian work?! give me a break, I have heard that crap for as long as i remember and the reason for it casue european simply dont have as much so they make up crap! over 5 million canadians have secondary homes in florida and carolina alone and another 7 million have cottages! essentially half of canadas population have vacation homes they own in places europeans can only dream about and europeans are the ones that live!? lol...like i said I go to europe all the time and this is all missconception crap they make up. I suggest you try you picking a place in europe and try living there for a couple of years, I bet you come back crawling kissing the ground here when you get here, I really dont think you knwo whats going on.

And you gotta be joking with good looking people! lol everytime i come back from france, spain or italy im shocked with how short and ugly women are and how they look like they havent taken care fo themselves for ages! it is a well known fact here that greeks, spanish, italians,...who live here are way better looking than those back in the old country, this is known fact! netherlands, swiss and sweden had some good looking people but nothing compared to north america. you can even go to clubs and see the difference.