Capitalism!

[masoudA]

I do not mean to divert attention from Iran's events - but I do consider this an Iran event (Believe it or not) - especially now that AN has offered to help the World solve it's problems. I think he wants to strike at capitalism - to divert attention from IRI's defaults. Some of AN's advisors have benefited a lot from internet discussions, and in-between discussions and in between the lines have learned enough to be able to make a good case against capitalism. Hence – I am hoping we can start disarming AN right here on ISP – by discussing capitalism ourselves.

Let me start by saying that I am a capitalist – but I think it has many problems that needs fixing.

1- Enemies identify Capitalism as a system in which “Capital” rules. While this is partially true – but I have a better definition for Capitalism – and from a different point of view. The way to describe Capitalism is a system that endorses “private ownership”, “Generation of Wealth” and “Inheritance”. Another words, Jazb Servat va be Miras gozashtan servat. I think this is the starting point at which one must encounter Capitalism. Do you think a person should have the right to pay money and buy a piece of earth and own properties? Do we have the right to own a house and the property it sits on? Do you believe in ownership? Your house, your car, your business,…. and more importantly – do our children have rights to our wealth – no matter how stupid, lazy and lame they are? If your answer is yes – then you are a Capitalist. You have the right to fight to lower the importance of capital in your society, or you can even insist on limits on how much capital an individual can generate – but you are still a Capitalist.

Will continue later

 

[Lover]

i just wanna f... broooooo. do u need to own a house for that?

 

[payan]

masoud jan, you are one hell of humble guy,as this poem; tavazo ze gardan frazan nekoust,geda gar tavazo kondad khoo ye oost . in other thread you made some kind words about several members, including me .i thank you for that .however as you put it we must have been doing something right which the guardian 3 days ago denied AN's jewish back ground.we started rumor here and that has travlled thousands mile round the world and made regime and intire international cartels nervous .
i guess we shouldn't worry about kham and AN anymore, the real enemy is retreating .
btw as bob dylan's song ;imagine life without home.we should continue to fight .
forgive me, this post just was an aknowledgement to your other thread .i really don't have time to post here for awhile but the damage has been done .regards .

 

[masoudA]

The intent here is not to examine Capitalism from merely an economic stand-point. We are looking at Capitalism as a political form to govern societies. And again – The idea is to disarm Ahmadinejad before he even starts to resolve problems of the rest of the world – as he intends to do on the soon coming negotiation tables. Let me clarify something – this discussion is very much on time. I hear, quiet accidentally!! Micheal Moore has come-up with a movie called “Capitalism” (???? Or something like that) providing more ammunition for AN. My point is – no matter how bad “Capitalism” may be – AN is the last person to open mouth and provide solutions.

2- Which do you prefer; to give “Handouts” or “Teach skills”? If your answer is “Teach Skills”, you have already passed the second base well on your way to third base. The right answer to this loaded question is not one of the options – the right answer is “Both” – which is one way Capitalism can be further be improved. Don’t make a mistake – Capitalists are already making handouts – at least here in America they are. But it is not clear, the impact of the handouts may have been creation of ghettos.

3- Do you prefer: 1- A smaller government that public controls, or 2- A larger government that controls the public? If your answer is 1, then you are rounding third base, heading for Home.


Payan Jaan - good to hear from you. I am in heaven these days - not because IRI is falling, but because the way Iranians are rising. what song was it talking about: daste Khastamo begir..... begir bia bala buddy - it is glorious. The way some of the SOB's were portraying Iranians was shameful - but bigger shame on me who at times doubted my hamvatans - even despite my own personal observations in Iran. Thanks god - Iranians have risen.

 

[Lover]

I prefer free everything instead of this stupid social ladder that reduces my access unless I "work hard and play hard."

Why are we forced to work so hard and not be happy while animals get to have short sweet lives?

 

[masoudA]

Ok – where were we?
Rounding third base of Capitalism, heading for home. Home is what? A life of peace and prosperity, sanity, joy, creativity, and in tune with humanity and nature. Again – “First Base” is when one finds him/herself in favor of “Ownership” and “Inheritance”, while “Second Base” is the belief in “Skills” and “Insight”, as much as discipline and hard work. Finally, “Third Base” of Capitalism is the belief in a small government that works for and is controlled by the people, rather than having a “Big Brother” that controls the masses.

Now – just like in baseball, one can miss the home plate or get thrown out before reaching home. How does a Capitalist miss Home? The answer is simple – “Greed”. Greed is the Achilles Heel of a Capitalist. Stalin said it best about a Greedy Capitalist – would sell you the rope to hang him with……Greed is what causes a Capitalist media to sell time and columns to enemies. Greed causes an average voter to vote for his pocket instead of his mind………Greed is what causes a Capitalist to sell-out it’s allies, even consider sitting across a table from a terrorist…….. Greed is to sell arms to the enemy, arms that can end-up killing your own.

 

[R_E_Z_A]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhydyxRjujU"]YouTube - TRAILER: Michael Moore's 'Capitalism: A Love Story' - OPENS NATIONWIDE OCTOBER 2nd![/ame]

 

[ball_hugger]

capitalism is good, the problem is morons confuse capitalism with anarchy/lawlessness....

 

[masoudA]

Needed to come back up.....
As I said Capitalism is only on 3rd base now.....at best. It is still the best system humanity has to offer, but the only way it can succeed is to overcome GREED.

 

[Behrooz_C]

I am not a capitalist (I don't have any significant capital, other than a mortgage ) but I believe in free market capitalism as the most effective way of taking people out of poverty and providing them with a living. Nations prosper under free markets and no other system can hold a candle to it.

Having said that, of course it is not perfect. Where ever you have people involved you get problems, but the answer to the problems is not to put more people in charge of the fixing the problems, like a government.

 

[a123321r]

man lover and ehsan should have had their own tv show!

 

[mashdi]

man lover and ehsan should have had their own tv show!

 

[keyvan_pars]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhydyxRjujU"]YouTube - TRAILER: Michael Moore's 'Capitalism: A Love Story' - OPENS NATIONWIDE OCTOBER 2nd![/ame]

your link is broken. just like your emaam zaman. everything broken dude.

you need to ask help from khatal of AN-bia

 

[Bi-honar]

I am not a capitalist (I don't have any significant capital, other than a mortgage ) but I believe in free market capitalism as the most effective way of taking people out of poverty and providing them with a living. Nations prosper under free markets and no other system can hold a candle to it.

We talked about this in another thread Behrooz jaan and I thought this would be a good eye opening article on free market capitalism at its best when you take away the enforcement of rules and regulations. The truth of the matter is that free market capitalism does not exist at the macroeconomics level and idealizing it ignores every bit of evidence that where it exists at a microeconomics (local) level the results are far from prosperity or taking people out of poverty:

Insight: Italy's Chinese garment workshops boom as workers suffer

Needed to come back up.....
As I said Capitalism is only on 3rd base now.....at best. It is still the best system humanity has to offer, but the only way it can succeed is to overcome GREED.

Unfortunately Massi joon, greed is one of the most basic and inherent flaws of mankind and it's not going away any time soon, if ever. There are of course always some less than perfect non-capitalist solutions being put forth to deal with the issue that basically say you can be as greedy as you want, but you won't end up with much more!

France heading to Super Tax for Super Rich

 

[Flint]

Damn, why didn't I think of that? I say make it 90%. I guess the calculation is that someone makes 2 million euros and you take 75% of that second million. Next year, like a zombie, he goes out and makes another million and turns 750,000 of it to the government. The year after he does the same thing. Is that how it works?

 

[Bi-honar]

Damn, why didn't I think of that? I say make it 90%. I guess the calculation is that someone makes 2 million euros and you take 75% of that second million. Next year, like a zombie, he goes out and makes another million and turns 750,000 of it to the government. The year after he does the same thing. Is that how it works?

The way I understood it, it's not the employee, rather the employer that pays that tax. They originally had it the way you described it, but apparently the court found it unconstitutional. They tweaked it so that if your salary is $2 million, you still take home the $1 million you were taking home before (based on a 50% tax rate), but the employer is now contributing another $250,000 on your behalf - in essence your salary expense to the employer becomes $2.25 million and the onus is on them to go back and reduce your salary or pay that extra tax.

 

[Flint]

Either way the individual pays. Looks like every generation is condemned to make the same mistakes. The top tax rate here in the 50s was 90%. JFK made his famous speech at the NY Economics Club arguing for a cut from 70%, calling it "paradoxical" that if you cur the rates you may end up in more revenues. You'd think by now one of these two philosophies would have proven more correct. But here come the French and they want to do it all over again. OK, let's wait and see.

 

[Behrooz_C]

We talked about this in another thread Behrooz jaan and I thought this would be a good eye opening article on free market capitalism at its best when you take away the enforcement of rules and regulations. The truth of the matter is that free market capitalism does not exist at the macroeconomics level and idealizing it ignores every bit of evidence that where it exists at a microeconomics (local) level the results are far from prosperity or taking people out of poverty:

Insight: Italy's Chinese garment workshops boom as workers suffer

Thanks for the article Behrou jan, but as I said, it is the most effective way of taking people out of poverty. It is not perfect by any means. But of all the systems we have, it is the worst. The worker asks, "what choice do I have " which tells you everything. If she didn't have this job, she'd probably be in much worse condition. If rules forced the company to pay more, then the industry would pack up and leave and do what it does elsewhere and worse.

There is no getting away from the realities. But any job is better than no job.

Regarding the top rate of tax, the current Tory government in the UK lowered the top rate from 50% to 45% and is taking more than it was before. Here is a recent article on it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...om-income-tax-in-first-month-of-45p-rate.html