Dec 29 News/Discussions

perspolis ny

Bench Warmer
Mar 4, 2005
584
1
نوشته شده در ۸ , دی , ۱۳۸۸ | توسط آ | احمد رضا از فرمانده هان پلیس گفته است:”نیروی انتظامی در اغتشاشات امروز از سلاح استفاده نکرده است”. منبع / [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzq2iyfSvU"]YouTube- ‫سردار رادان با صداي لرزان از كشته هاي روز عاشورا ميگويد‬‎[/ame]
نه تنها او ، بلکه دادستان هم گفته که کشته شدگان جز علی موسوی بقیه با هر چیزی جز گلوله کشته شده اند. شاید درست می گویند چون در ایران پدیده ای داریم به نام لباس شخصی ها. گویا هم قرار نیست در هیچ دادگاهی محاکمه شوند. این تازه ترین عکس ها نشان می دهد حاکمیت (پلیس یا لباس شخصی) ، مسلح بوده اند و اتفاقا شلیک هم کرده اند:
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
These guys are digging their graves in every which way they can:

Intel report: Iran seeking to smuggle raw uranium

VIENNA — Iran is close to clinching a deal to clandestinely import 1,350 tons of purified uranium ore from Kazakhstan, according to an intelligence report obtained by The Associated Press on Tuesday. Diplomats said the assessment was heightening international concern about Tehran’s nuclear activities. Such a deal would be significant because Tehran appears to be running out of the material, which it needs to feed its uranium enrichment program. The report was drawn up by a member nation of the International Atomic Energy agency and provided to the AP on condition of that the country not be identified because of the confidential nature of the information.

Such imports are banned by the U.N. Security Council. In New York, Burkina Faso’s U.N. Ambassador Michel Kafando, a co-chair of the Security Council’s Iran sanctions committee, referred questions Tuesday about a potential deal between Iran and Kazakhstan to his sanctions adviser, Zongo Saidou. Saidou told the AP that, as far as he knew, none of the U.N.’s member nations have alerted the committee about any such allegations. “We don’t have any official information yet regarding this kind of exchange between the two countries,” Saidou said. “I don’t have any information; I don’t have any proof.”

A senior U.N. official said the agency was aware of the assessment but could not yet draw conclusions. He demanded anonymity for discussing confidential information. A Western diplomat from a member of the IAEA’s 35-nation board said the report was causing concern among countries that have seen it and generating intelligence chatter. The diplomat also requested anonymity for discussing intelligence information. A two-page summary of the report obtained by the AP said the deal could be completed within weeks. It said Tehran was willing to pay $450 million, or close to euro315 million, for the shipment. “The price is high because of the secret nature of the deal and due to Iran’s commitment to keep secret the elements supplying the material,” said the summary, adding: “The deal is to be signed soon.” An official of the country that drew up the report said “elements” referred to state employees acting on their own without approval of the Kazakh government.

Full article: http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20091229/NEWS02/91229022/1263/rss
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
Iranian Dissidents Find Escape Route Through Iraq

by Quil Lawrence
December 29, 2009


Demonstrations in Iran have been centered in big cities, and so far haven't gained traction in the traditionally rebellious Kurdish province in the northwest of the country. But while Kurdish Iranians don't appear quite ready to join the "Green Movement" — as the opposition is being called — they do seem to be helping dissidents from Tehran escape Iran on the way to Europe. Sepideh Pooraghaiee and her husband — Iranian journalists who have both spent time in Iran's infamous Evin prison — contacted friends who live in the Kurdish area of Iran when they decided they needed to leave. Pooraghaiee and her husband were already in trouble when the protests over June's disputed election began.

She had spent 110 days in jail, and her husband about six months, she says. To be released on bail, both Pooraghaiee and her husband signed statements saying that they would no longer be involved in politics. But after President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was returned to office in an election they both believe was stolen, they began writing about the government crackdown. When Pooraghaiee got a threatening call directly from a government ministry, she decided her time was up. "I was in danger because I know the truth," she says. "And it was bad for them."

Escaping Iran

Pooraghaiee and her husband got in touch with friends from the Kurdish area of Iran, which has a long, porous border with Iraq's autonomous Kurdistan region. Through methods she would not describe in detail, Pooraghaiee soon found herself in Iraq, where she gave this interview. "It was the first time that I rode a horse, especially in mountain," she says. "It was vey hard." Sitting nearby is the Kurdish man who helped Pooraghaiee escape. He asked not to give his name, but he did volunteer that he's helped about 100 Iranians recently, most of them en route to Europe.

Pooraghaiee is understandably grateful. She says that all of Iran's minorities are a part of the Green Movement. "Kurdish, Baluchi and Turkoman — all of them took part in demonstration," she says. Her benefactor politely does not contradict her. But one element missing, so far, from the Green Movement protests has been the organized involvement of ethnic minorities like the Kurds, Arabs, Baluchis and Azeris, who make up nearly half of Iran's population.

Skepticism Of Movement

There are several Iranian Kurdish separatist groups based in the north of Iraq, but so far they're not convinced by the Green Movement. The Iranian Kurdistan Democratic Party has kept a base for decades in the northern Iraqi city of Koya. At the moment, they are also hosting a number of exiles from Iran, but these are not members of the Green Movement. They're Iranian Kurds who have fled because they say the Iranian government discriminates against them.

Salam Pur, a 33-year-old librarian from the Iranian city of Kermanshah, fled in June, but not because of the strife after the election. He had been working with Kurdish cultural groups, and both he and his wife were fired from their jobs. Next to him, 25-year-old Muhammad Reza Hematgar, who crossed the mountains from Iran earlier this month, has a similar complaint. "We have no freedom in Iran," he says. But Hematgar left mostly because no one would hire him as an architectural engineer. At demonstrations in Tehran, Hematgar heard the Green Movement call for the release of detained protesters.

But Hematgar says there's been no mention of Kurdish political dissidents who have been arrested or even executed. Another Iranian Kurdish exile agrees. "In our hearts, we love anyone who is going to topple the Iranian regime," says a man who calls himself Muhammad. But, he adds, they aren't sure that the Green Movement really wants to change Iran so drastically. Muhammad says the movement will succeed if it joins its cause with ethnic minorities. But that's something he believes the Green Movement is, so far, afraid to do.

P.S. This lat part I underlined is obviously an interesting assertion and one that I have not seen us discuss (personally I hadn't even thought of that until this point).
 
Feb 7, 2004
13,568
0
Editorial: Iran’s War on Its People

We are inspired by the bravery of Iranians who continue to demand their rights, even in the face of their government’s relentless and shameful brutality. Iran’s leaders are so desperate to repel a rising tide of popular unrest that even Ashura — which marks the death of Shiite Islam’s holiest martyr — is no longer sacred.

The anniversary, which fell on Sunday, is supposed to be a time of peaceful commemoration. Even during war, Iranian governments have honored the prohibitions against violence during a two-month period surrounding Ashura. Tehran’s current rulers have proved again that their only belief is in their own survival.

On Sunday, the police opened fire on a crowd of protesters, reportedly killing at least 10 people, and arrested hundreds more. Government forces are also believed to be behind the assassination of Ali Moussavi, nephew of the opposition leader Mir Hussein Moussavi, the leading candidate in June’s fraudulent presidential election. On Monday, opposition Web sites reported that several opposition figures were detained, including former Foreign Minister Ibrahim Yazdi; Emad Baghi, a human rights activist; and three of Mr. Moussavi’s top aides.

The government is trying hard to keep the Iranian people, and the world, from learning the full extent of its abuses. Foreign correspondents have largely been barred from the country. Journalists there risk their lives when they dare to do their jobs. Redha al-Basha, a Syrian journalist with Dubai TV, has been reported missing. He was last seen in the midst of the protests, surrounded by security forces. He must be released unharmed. Thankfully there are still many people — journalists, bloggers, concerned citizens with cellphone cameras — who are determined to get the word out.

The protests began when Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini, stole the June election for President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The government killed and imprisoned protesters and many feared the movement would flag. It hasn’t, and the demands for reform seem to have won significant support from important members of Iran’s clerical class.

President Obama is right to remain open to dialogue with Iran and to continue looking for a peaceful resolution to the dispute over Tehran’s nuclear ambitions. He is also right to condemn the violence against Iranian civilians and to place the United States on their side, as he did in his speech accepting the Nobel Peace Prize and in comments on Monday.

The government still appears to have firm control of the main levers of power, including the brutish Revolutionary Guard and the Basij militia. But Ayatollah Khameini — who helped lead the 1979 revolution against the shah — should not ignore the echoes of history when protesters defy the death blows of security forces and chant “Death to the dictator” on the streets of Tehran.

The Iranian people are demanding what all people have a right to demand: basic freedoms, economic security, and the knowledge that their government is committed to protecting, not killing its citizens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/opinion/29tue1.html?_r=2
 
Feb 7, 2004
13,568
0
Iranian Dissidents Find Escape Route Through Iraq

by Quil Lawrence
December 29, 2009

Demonstrations in Iran have been centered in big cities, and so far haven't gained traction in the traditionally rebellious Kurdish province in the northwest of the country. But while Kurdish Iranians don't appear quite ready to join the "Green Movement" — as the opposition is being called — they do seem to be helping dissidents from Tehran escape Iran on the way to Europe. Sepideh Pooraghaiee and her husband — Iranian journalists who have both spent time in Iran's infamous Evin prison — contacted friends who live in the Kurdish area of Iran when they decided they needed to leave. Pooraghaiee and her husband were already in trouble when the protests over June's disputed election began.

She had spent 110 days in jail, and her husband about six months, she says. To be released on bail, both Pooraghaiee and her husband signed statements saying that they would no longer be involved in politics. But after President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was returned to office in an election they both believe was stolen, they began writing about the government crackdown. When Pooraghaiee got a threatening call directly from a government ministry, she decided her time was up. "I was in danger because I know the truth," she says. "And it was bad for them."

Escaping Iran

Pooraghaiee and her husband got in touch with friends from the Kurdish area of Iran, which has a long, porous border with Iraq's autonomous Kurdistan region. Through methods she would not describe in detail, Pooraghaiee soon found herself in Iraq, where she gave this interview. "It was the first time that I rode a horse, especially in mountain," she says. "It was vey hard." Sitting nearby is the Kurdish man who helped Pooraghaiee escape. He asked not to give his name, but he did volunteer that he's helped about 100 Iranians recently, most of them en route to Europe.

Pooraghaiee is understandably grateful. She says that all of Iran's minorities are a part of the Green Movement. "Kurdish, Baluchi and Turkoman — all of them took part in demonstration," she says. Her benefactor politely does not contradict her. But one element missing, so far, from the Green Movement protests has been the organized involvement of ethnic minorities like the Kurds, Arabs, Baluchis and Azeris, who make up nearly half of Iran's population.

Skepticism Of Movement

There are several Iranian Kurdish separatist groups based in the north of Iraq, but so far they're not convinced by the Green Movement. The Iranian Kurdistan Democratic Party has kept a base for decades in the northern Iraqi city of Koya. At the moment, they are also hosting a number of exiles from Iran, but these are not members of the Green Movement. They're Iranian Kurds who have fled because they say the Iranian government discriminates against them.

Salam Pur, a 33-year-old librarian from the Iranian city of Kermanshah, fled in June, but not because of the strife after the election. He had been working with Kurdish cultural groups, and both he and his wife were fired from their jobs. Next to him, 25-year-old Muhammad Reza Hematgar, who crossed the mountains from Iran earlier this month, has a similar complaint. "We have no freedom in Iran," he says. But Hematgar left mostly because no one would hire him as an architectural engineer. At demonstrations in Tehran, Hematgar heard the Green Movement call for the release of detained protesters.

But Hematgar says there's been no mention of Kurdish political dissidents who have been arrested or even executed. Another Iranian Kurdish exile agrees. "In our hearts, we love anyone who is going to topple the Iranian regime," says a man who calls himself Muhammad. But, he adds, they aren't sure that the Green Movement really wants to change Iran so drastically. Muhammad says the movement will succeed if it joins its cause with ethnic minorities. But that's something he believes the Green Movement is, so far, afraid to do.

P.S. This lat part I underlined is obviously an interesting assertion and one that I have not seen us discuss (personally I hadn't even thought of that until this point).

Behro jan,

This is very important issue IMHO. It has always been in my mind and tried to talk about it. As mentioned in the article, we are talking about 50% of population. This movement needs to be as inclusive as possible. Unfortunately many of us are tainted and intoxicated with chauvinism and don’t even want to recognize the issue of national minorities within boundary of present Iran. Things have to change for better (federalism) If we want to keep these people in the union. They never received their fair share and it is about time to address this injustice.
 
Last edited:
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
I am going through varioud pro-government sites (Fars, Raja, Jahan, Alef, parcham, ...) and one thing I notice is that how lame the reactions are. They claim that Imam Hussein was insulted and Quran was set on fire, yet no explosion of condemnation, fury, etc?! Just lame statements from the usual bunch, a demonstration in Elm-o-San'at that was countered by Green's demonstration (pretty brazen act just a day after the events), attack on Sanei's offices around the country (likely planned last week), and a bunch of farmaayeshi rallies. and yes, the MPs walk around the parliament backyard!

And yet more important is that you don't hear from so many. And I don't mean just Khamenei who is still quiet. Many from the Majlis minority factions did not attend the MPs "rally in support of Quran!" (Alikhani, Shahriari etc). The Majlis minority actually issued a statement whose focus was almost entirely on the attack on Khatami's speech. Karoubi's statement you have all seen. Ali Motahhari just issues a seven-point plan that is mostly what the greens originally wanted. Tabassi, Nategh, Javadi Amoli and several other top dogs issue guarded statements that implicitly asks both sides to back down, and nothing from Hashemi yet.

Interesting reaction to a supposed "Quran burning" incident. As we say in Persian, "Hanaye aghayoon peesh khodeshoon ham rangi nadareh".
 

Zob Ahan

Elite Member
Feb 4, 2005
17,481
2,233
I am going through varioud pro-government sites (Fars, Raja, Jahan, Alef, parcham, ...) and one thing I notice is that how lame the reactions are. They claim that Imam Hussein was insulted and Quran was set on fire, yet no explosion of condemnation, fury, etc?! Just lame statements from the usual bunch, a demonstration in Elm-o-San'at that was countered by Green's demonstration (pretty brazen act just a day after the events), attack on Sanei's offices around the country (likely planned last week), and a bunch of farmaayeshi rallies. and yes, the MPs walk around the parliament backyard!

And yet more important is that you don't hear from so many. And I don't mean just Khamenei who is still quiet. Many from the Majlis minority factions did not attend the MPs "rally in support of Quran!" (Alikhani, Shahriari etc). The Majlis minority actually issued a statement whose focus was almost entirely on the attack on Khatami's speech. Karoubi's statement you have all seen. Ali Motahhari just issues a seven-point plan that is mostly what the greens originally wanted. Tabassi, Nategh, Javadi Amoli and several other top dogs issue guarded statements that implicitly asks both sides to back down, and nothing from Hashemi yet.

Interesting reaction to a supposed "Quran burning" incident. As we say in Persian, "Hanaye aghayoon peesh khodeshoon ham rangi nadareh".
Alikhani was in the majles rally.
 
Jan 23, 2003
3,619
0
And yet more important is that you don't hear from so many. And I don't mean just Khamenei who is still quiet. Many from the Majlis minority factions did not attend the MPs "rally in support of Quran!" (Alikhani, Shahriari etc). The Majlis minority actually issued a statement whose focus was almost entirely on the attack on Khatami's speech. Karoubi's statement you have all seen. Ali Motahhari just issues a seven-point plan that is mostly what the greens originally wanted. Tabassi, Nategh, Javadi Amoli and several other top dogs issue guarded statements that implicitly asks both sides to back down, and nothing from Hashemi yet.
Deerouz jan Alikhani did attend. He was interviewed during the march (see Zobahans clip). You think Tabassi's statement was guarded? Apparently he has asked the green leaders to be executed!

I saw 2 significant developments today which make me think something terrible is around the corner:

1) Up to now Ali Larijani and Bahonar were guarded and never insulted the opposition. But today they both completely joined the other side. Larijani was sounding like Fatemeh Rajabi!

2) Same with Tabassi. If I recall correctly a few weeks after the coup AN went to Mashhad and Tabassi didnt welcome him (first time ever he didnt see a visiting president) and when Hashemi went to Mashhad after his friday prayers, he was well received by Tabassi. If todays news is true, he has completely switched

We thought Ashura events would deepen the split, it seems it has unified them :mad:
 

eshghi

News Team
Oct 18, 2002
8,302
0
San Diego, CA
Well, going through it as kids was one thing Amir jaan - we had no role to play in it. Even the constant bombardment of Tehran by the Iraqis in my teens did not bother me as much as some of these images and videos coming out today, even though we lived around Gisha - being the target zone at least twice. The frustration today is moestly by the fact that we can't help much and no one has offered a way for us to help, other than completely dropping our lives and going back. It would have made me feel somewhat better if we could at least support the families of these brave hamvatans who've lost their lives at least financially, to get them through these tough times. I honestly wish we could do something, anything.
BH jAn, I wrote this to draw attention of those who claim that Shah's regime was not nearly as savage; that if Shah had been "cruel enough" to order his army to kill more people , the 78-79 unrest may have died away but he was nice and kind and didn't want to kill. :) Back in 78-79, six months into the unrest, far more had been killed by the Shah's regime than this time around. Even though it as harder to get news and pictures out in many ways, I saw plenty of pictures and videos of army units shooting directly into crowds.

I don't write this to vindicate the bastards killing people today, but to remind the younger generation not to be fooled by history revisionists and opportunists. For my generation, it's the second time going through the same emotions all over again; the anger; frustrations; feeling helpless yet hopeful. I can only hope that our youth today are more mature politically than we were. That they don't let their emotions but brains to drive them. Otherwise, our future may not be nearly as bright as we imagine even with IRI completely dismantled and gone. Frankly, looking at increasing level of violence by the movement, I am becoming more concerned. I can't recall a single democracy resulting from violent movement, and that's exactly where we seem to be headed. If so, we should all expect and be prepared for a drawn-out, long, protracted battle -perhaps even civil war- in Iran.
 

eshghi

News Team
Oct 18, 2002
8,302
0
San Diego, CA
Many years from now, I think we will all see the events of Ashoora as a turning point that set the movement back. I personally believe that burning motorcycles, setting fires to buildings, and beating of Basijis has, at least in the short term, put the regime on offensive. That's why I suspect the regime itself may have been instrumental in staging some of these events. I think Mousavi, Karoubi and Khatami are all in imminent danger of being arrested, and predict they will be sometime in the next week or so. If IRI can not fully use this opportunity to its own advantage, then their end may be much nearer than we can all imagine. Otherwise, expect widespread arrests, imprisonments, and harsh sentences, and for the movement to be shut down almost completely. The movement is not going to die. It will move underground and become far more radical.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
Deerouz jan Alikhani did attend. He was interviewed during the march (see Zobahans clip). You think Tabassi's statement was guarded? Apparently he has asked the green leaders to be executed!
My mistake. I read on one rightist site that Aikhani had not attended. I probably confused Tabassi's statement with another.

We thought Ashura events would deepen the split, it seems it has unified them :mad:
Actually, no, I disagree. Obviously they have to circle the wagons when the main opposition slogan is "death to velayat faghih". What did you expect? However, I have no doubt that many in the Larijani, Nategh, bahonar camp are ready to use the events of Ashura day to their benefit. they will gather other top dogs to argue that Khamenei/AN togeter have screwed up a simple issue and made it into an existansialist threat to IRI. I can even hear them saying that: Look how you made people's slogans go from "Ahmadi Dorooghgoo" to "Khamenei Ghateleh".

As Khodam said on the other thread, at this point the regime has no choice but to escalate. So arrests of Mousavi and karoubi must be imminent and a big show fo force to try to crush the spirit of the opposition. However at the same time, I expect a group of top regime guns, probably led by Larijani brothers, would try to raise the red flags behind the scene to find a solution to their benefit. Perhaps Ali Motahhari's plan was a first to test the water. Something along the lines of getting rid of AN and his cronies, quietly limiting Khamenei's power, and controlling the other main levers of power. Obviously a conflict between this group and Khamenei/AN would be unavoidable. However I have no doubt that many in the top positions of the regime are quite concerned about the screw ups of Khamenei/AN team and see their own existence in danger. Whether they succeed or not, depends on how much support they would be able to gather at the top levels.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
Many years from now, I think we will all see the events of Ashoora as a turning point that set the movement back. I personally believe that burning motorcycles, setting fires to buildings, and beating of Basijis has, at least in the short term, put the regime on offensive. That's why I suspect the regime itself may have been instrumental in staging some of these events. I think Mousavi, Karoubi and Khatami are all in imminent danger of being arrested, and predict they will be sometime in the next week or so. If IRI can not fully use this opportunity to its own advantage, then their end may be much nearer than we can all imagine. Otherwise, expect widespread arrests, imprisonments, and harsh sentences, and for the movement to be shut down almost completely. The movement is not going to die. It will move underground and become far more radical.
Dear Eshghi, escsalation is inevitable at this point, but it could go either way. Sometimes a huge crackdown is the last step before a complete chaos.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
Abed jaan, the issues are so polarized at this point that they've all been forced to take sides. With 1500+ arrests reported , I don't think we could have expected too many of them to bite the hands that feed them and side with the people. I think this polarization was inevitable and would have happened back in early July if the events had continued at the original intensity. If anything, they've all made themselves legitimate targets at this point and I don't believe the regime has the resources to protect every single onle of them around the clock, having been stretched very thin. It will take them some time to understand the fury they're facing from the people (don't forget they may not been viewing the same pictured/videos or reading the same articles we do) and that's the point the house of cards will come crumbling down. I'm actually quite impressed with the few MP's who didn't join the march.

Deerouz jaan, I've been studying those news orgniazations since June and it has always been the same way. That's why I mentioned in the above paragraph that many people inside the regime do not have a good picture of what's really going on (much like people in Shah's time didn't), but as the unrest spreads even more, it will be difficult to distrust one's own eyes. The press will fall at some point, exactly as it did the last time. If some of us are optimistic enough to think that even Basijis will make a turn-around, the press is and has always been a much weaker link than a fanatic ideological organization.

Amir jaan, I agree with you completely except the part that you said you don't recall a single democracy resulting from a violent movement. I actually don't recall any democracy having resulted from a movement which did not include elements of violence. One either respects people's rights and hands power to them (in which case they're already respecting a democratic structure) or they hold on it and fight for it until they can, which has been the way most democracies have been achieved on the ashes of tyranny and oppression IMHO. Having said that, I do not consider this movement violent by nature (which is a good thing) and if and when it turns to violence it will be out of necessity, not choice. I think our people have shown the utmost political maturity by mounting huge protests, waiting and gauging the reaction of those in power, seeking other solutions and only when eveyrthing else has failed, coming out again and demanding their rights more firlmly than they have before. I think we all have to be proud of their patience, their perseverance and the path they've chosen. I remain VERY hopeful that the results achieved this time around (through any means) will be substantially better than the last time.

#8 jaan, I'm completely with you on that. I think we've ignore a large portion of the Iranian population for too long and we need to start listening to their voices, vowing them and seeking their support for reaching a goal that's inclusive of their cause, their rights, their equality and prosperity within the Iranian society. Cyrus was successful because he brought all these "nations" together and I've always believed that the way Iran will reach democracy is through acknowleding that it will be a nation of nations.

P.S. Amir jaan you sound so down. I was feeling pretty crappy myself until I read your post and I find myself having to pick me up a little bit for some supportive hugs. No one, no entity, no group and no ideology can ever stop a movement that's in line with God. By God, I don't necessarily mean the Abrahmic God, but universal freedoms and truth. There have been bigger falacies than the IR which have been brought down in the course of history. This is just a tiny little battle in the bigger scheme of things and one that will be won by those who are on the side of the truth. Unless, we think that freedom and democracy are not on the side of the truth (which would be a whole different philosophical discussion), we have nothing to worry about, absolutely nothing and this battle will be won by those who deserve it. In the battle of good and evil, it is always the good that prevails and if we stop beliveing our entire history and the lessons of our ancestors, we have already lost this battle.
 
Last edited:
Abed jaan, the issues are so polarized at this point that they've all been forced to take sides. With 1500+ arrests reported , I don't think we could have expected too many of them to bite the hands that feed them and side with the people. I think this polarization was inevitable and would have happened back in early July if the events had continued at the original intensity. If anything, they've all made themselves legitimate targets at this point and I don't believe the regime has the resources to protect every single onle of them around the clock, having been stretched very thin. It will take them some time to understand the fury they're facing from the people (don't forget they may not been viewing the same pictured/videos or reading the same articles we do) and that's the point the house of cards will come crumbling down. I'm actually quite impressed with the few MP's who didn't join the march.

Deerouz jaan, I've been studying those news orgniazations since June and it has always been the same way. That's why I mentioned in the above paragraph that many people inside the regime do not have a good picture of what's really going on (much like people in Shah's time didn't), but as the unrest spreads even more, it will be difficult to distrust one's own eyes. The press will fall at some point, exactly as it did the last time. If some of us are optimistic enough to think that even Basijis will make a turn-around, the press is and has always been a much weaker link than a fanatic ideological organization.

Amir jaan, I agree with you completely except the part that you said you don't recall a single democracy resulting from a violent movement. I actually don't recall any democracy having resulted from a movement which did not include elements of violence. One either respects people's rights and hands power to them (in which case they're already respecting a democratic structure) or they hold on it and fight for it until they can, which has been the way most democracies have been achieved on the ashes of tyranny and oppression IMHO. Having said that, I do not consider this movement violent by nature (which is a good thing) and if and when it turns to violence it will be out of necessity, not choice. I think our people have shown the utmost political maturity by mounting huge protests, waiting and gauging the reaction of those in power, seeking other solutions and only when eveyrthing else has failed, coming out again and demanding their rights more firlmly than they have before. I think we all have to be proud of their patience, their perseverance and the path they've chosen. I remain VERY hopeful that the results achieved this time around (through any means) will be substantially better than the last time.

#8 jaan, I'm completely with you on that. I think we've ignore a large portion of the Iranian population for too long and we need to start listening to their voices, vowing them and seeking their support for reaching a goal that's inclusive of their cause, their rights, their equality and prosperity within the Iranian society. Cyrus was successful because he brought all these "nations" together and I've always believed that the way Iran will reach democracy is through acknowleding that it will be a nation of nations.

P.S. Amir jaan you sound so down. I was feeling pretty crappy myself until I read your post and I find myself having to pick me up a little bit for some supportive hugs. No one, no entity, no group and no ideology can ever stop a movement that's in line with God. By God, I don't necessarily mean the Abrahmic God, but universal freedoms and truth. There have been bigger falacies than the IR which have been brought down in the course of history. This is just a tiny little battle in the bigger scheme of things and one that will be won by those who are on the side of the truth. Unless, we think that freedom and democracy are not on the side of the truth (which would be a whole different philosophical discussion), we have nothing to worry about, absolutely nothing and this battle will be won by those who deserve it. In the battle of good and evil, it is always the good that prevails and if we stop beliveing our entire history and the lessons of our ancestors, we have already lost this battle.
My turn to spam/troll:

THANK YOU.
 

Zob Ahan

Elite Member
Feb 4, 2005
17,481
2,233
Abed jaan, the issues are so polarized at this point that they've all been forced to take sides. With 1500+ arrests reported , I don't think we could have expected too many of them to bite the hands that feed them and side with the people. I think this polarization was inevitable and would have happened back in early July if the events had continued at the original intensity. If anything, they've all made themselves legitimate targets at this point and I don't believe the regime has the resources to protect every single onle of them around the clock, having been stretched very thin. It will take them some time to understand the fury they're facing from the people (don't forget they may not been viewing the same pictured/videos or reading the same articles we do) and that's the point the house of cards will come crumbling down. I'm actually quite impressed with the few MP's who didn't join the march.


BH jan who didn't join?
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
BH jan who didn't join?
ZA jaan, wasn't there a report earlier in this thread about one of the MP's who got into an argument with the majles security because he hadn't joined the march outside and security called him a khaen? I've read so many articles and posts today, I don't even know what I read where, but I'm pretty sure it was here. Anyway, I assumed "one of" to mean there were others who didn't join.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
ZA jaan, wasn't there a report earlier in this thread about one of the MP's who got into an argument with the majles security because he hadn't joined the march outside and security called him a khaen? I've read so many articles and posts today, I don't even know what I read where, but I'm pretty sure it was here. Anyway, I assumed "one of" to mean there were others who didn't join.
Here is the report. It mentioned Alikhani and Shahriari; that's why I thought Alikhani did not attend. Obviously their source was wrong:

http://jahannews.com/vdcdfj0j.yt0kx6a22y.html