Edwards: 'Iran must know world won't back down'

pansari

Bench Warmer
May 24, 2006
1,323
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#21
Keyvan_pars,

do you have not sense of national pride, or have you been living in america so long that you forgot where your from? or is simply you work for americans?

It is Irans RIGHT to develop anything it wants, even if it wants weapons it can do this, no one in this world has the right to say what other nations can and can't do, especailly if the nation itself has the same weapons!

Iran is not Pakistan, we have a wealth of natural resources, educated young population, which the greater majority aren't reglious (except for the fanatics leading the nation). Pakistan on the other hand, dson't have much for resources, population is normal, and people are very regilous there!.

Even if IR is developing nucelear just for weapons, a side product will be ENERGY !!!! and if the IR is as fanatical as they are, then they will produce a lot of bombs therefore a lot of ENERGY. Energy is the currency of the world, if Iran has a lot, it will be more powerful, and able to do more things for its people. Look at India how many nuclear power plants are going in there ?

Who ever is leading Iran can lead let them lead it, Iran is still Iran and have some pride, and stop supporting those who want to make Iran their little bitch again. Every time you post you post AGAINST IRAN, i dont care if you post agains the government, don't post AGAINST IRAN!
 

Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
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#22
It is Irans RIGHT to develop anything it wants, even if it wants weapons it can do this, no one in this world has the right to say what other nations can and can't do, especailly if the nation itself has the same weapons!
No it can't. Iran is a signatory to the NPT which prohibits it from developing nuclear weaponry.
So who says Iran can and can't develop weapons? International law says so, by which Iran has also agreed to abide.

But in terms of having nuclear capability for energy purposes, then I agree with you. No one should be able to tell Iran that they can't do this.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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#23
Behrooz, those laws are made for the powerful countries to dominate the weak ones. It is to ensure the weak stay weak and powerless so that they could be abused. Do you really believe that US, China, Israel, etc.. abide by it?
 

pansari

Bench Warmer
May 24, 2006
1,323
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#24
Tell me of the nations which have also signed the NPT, USA, Brittian, France, are they all in violation of the NPT?

If so, they cannot impose it on other member nations, and if these the most powerful nations in the world are violoating the NPT, I guess Iran can also violate the NPT, seems only fair.

Here is an analogy. On the soccer field the rules cleary state that the goal keepers are the only one allowed to use their hands, but when Brazil, Italy, Germany (powerhouse nations) begin using their hands and noone says anthing, why can't Iran use its hands? Why can't Iran even mention using its hands ????????????????????????????????????????????
 

Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
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#25
Well that's different debate. All I am presenting to you is the fact that Iran has signed the NPT. Now who else has signed it and abide by it or not is another discussion. Those who use their hands in football are breaking the law and in most cases the ref disallows a goal scored by hand (unless it's the hand of God!).

But seriously, lord jaan, when you say those laws are made by the strong to dominate the weak, that maybe the case. But I much prefer to live in a world where only very few countries possess them than live in a world where every country with potentially a mad regime possess them. How can the world be a safer place when everyone has the ability to wipe another off the map?

Let me use an analogy. Is the USA safer because everyone can carry a gun? Would you feel safer walking the streets if you knew everyone around you had a gun or a knife and could attack you at any time? All it takes is for one angry, less stable person to get really mad. If he has a gun the chances that he will use it are heavily increased.
No way. I much rather live in Canada or England where guns are illegal. I feel a lot safer.
 
Feb 22, 2005
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#26
Behrooz, nicely put and I dont disagree with you. But obviously, like people of every country who want their own to have the power and therefore have a voice in the affairs of the world, which often should dictate to a better economy, I want the same for Iran.

The future world, especially with globalization, is uncertain. One has to protect themselves so that they don't become the toilet of the world.
 

Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
16,651
1,566
A small island west of Africa
#27
Behrooz, nicely put and I dont disagree with you. But obviously, like people of every country who want their own to have the power and therefore have a voice in the affairs of the world, which often should dictate to a better economy, I want the same for Iran.

The future world, especially with globalization, is uncertain. One has to protect themselves so that they don't become the toilet of the world.
I am all in favour of Iran having nuclear energy so that we are less reliable on oil and the world can't keep screwing us because of it. But I just hope that all this makes the lives of our people better, not just bring longevity to the status quo.

You know, in a way IR doesn't need nuclear weapons to be a threat. All it needs is have full capability to provide every home and business in the country with nuclear energy rather than oil. That would mean they can decrease the sale of oil and it would really drive the Americans and the Brits mad. You see, all Americans want is Iran's oil. At the moment they are getting it and that's why they tolerate them and even love the ayatollahs. Ok the regime is crazy but they are happy with it because as long as this regime exists Iran is dependent on selling oil, nevermind that they are oppressing the people. It's all good.

But if Iran decides to close the taps on oil then vaveyla.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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#28
Behrooz, those laws are made for the powerful countries to dominate the weak ones. It is to ensure the weak stay weak and powerless so that they could be abused. Do you really believe that US, China, Israel, etc.. abide by it?
Lord,
Yes they do, and Israel is not a signatory to NPT so they don't have to obey the rules.
No country was forced to sign the NPT, so claiming it is made by powerful countries is meaningless since all signatory nations can pull out of the Treaty at will so can Iran. Iran can go home free if IRI withdraws the membership from NPT and do any thing they want but Iran will not withdraw because of automatic crippling sanctions which will immediately follow.
US, Russia, China were already a nuclear state prior to the advent of NPT and today they are accepted as Nuclear State members, all of the N5 are.
IRI is after Nuclear Weapon period!! and I think most of the world is not ready to accept nuclear armed IRI yet.
 

pansari

Bench Warmer
May 24, 2006
1,323
0
#29
Well that's different debate. All I am presenting to you is the fact that Iran has signed the NPT. Now who else has signed it and abide by it or not is another discussion
Well it is not a different debate it is infact the same debate. We are debating whether Iran is in violation of NPT, which so far it actually is not. Once evidence is shown that Iran is developing weapons then it is. Second the other nations I mentioned are also in violation of the NPT (2nd and 3rd pilliars) disarmement and use of it peacefully (as we speak development of new and sophisticated nuclear weapons occurs).

We cannot be hipocritical allow some nations to have it and others not, some not be part of NPT have openly have them (Israel and North Korea), what kind of world is this?

Personally I think IR having nuclear weapons is safer than US having nuclear weapons, because:
1. US have used them before
2. US are the world aggressors, and in a "all or none" situtation they will use them.
 

AliMR

Bench Warmer
Mar 25, 2005
2,283
0
#31
...Chance to change things from within...

hmmm, dude, are we talking about the same country ??? This is not Shah's regime that fires tear gas into population. This regime kills and asks questions later.

I would like to remind you of the 1998-2002 Intellectual and student supression and executions in IR. Nothing will change from within. Things have progressively gotten worse in IR not better.

About six months ago i had this debate with a pal of mine about how things have opened up in IR now and people are allowed to express their opinions. I said you are absolutely correct.

You can go in the street and express your opinion about poverty, prostitution, drugs, corruption, crime, pollution, traffic, traffic accidents, social injustice, etc etc ...and everyone agrees with you and then everybody goes back to their miserable lives....

so you can express your opinion ( as long as you are not offending anyone of the leaders) and you still live in your miserable world...SO WHAT IS THE POINT OF LIVING THERE IF YOU ARE NOT RICH OR CONNECTED TO ONE OF THE SHEYKhs...

About the nuclear club, once you have reactors and they are working, about 5-10 times more money is required to maintain those reactors and DISPOSE OF NUCLEAR WASTE. do you seriously (not only you but anyone who has a mind that works) think that any thing will get better for anyone in IR ...

no. the regime will be there and it will be armed with nuclear weapons.

Having said that, however, i agree with your point about the Pakis. We need to strengthen ourselves against the ISLAMIC MENACE that threatens our country from the east. It would be a comfort to have nuclear warheads pointing to Saudi Arabia(WEST), and Pakistan(EAST) but not under the AN regime.
irrelavant.
NE doesnt have anything to do with the interior issues...internal problems should be solved by inside. no one faked around with South Africa...they sanctioned them, until they changed from within... i think the reason no one attacked them was their Enerzhie hasteyee... in other words, having the NE, forced the change to come from within, rather than outside.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Band e 209
#32
Tell me of the nations which have also signed the NPT, USA, Brittian, France, are they all in violation of the NPT?

If so, they cannot impose it on other member nations, and if these the most powerful nations in the world are violoating the NPT, I guess Iran can also violate the NPT, seems only fair.

Here is an analogy. On the soccer field the rules cleary state that the goal keepers are the only one allowed to use their hands, but when Brazil, Italy, Germany (powerhouse nations) begin using their hands and noone says anthing, why can't Iran use its hands? Why can't Iran even mention using its hands ????????????????????????????????????????????
Pansari jAn,
Until we become powerful enough to make the rules we have to follow them. And I tell you Nuclear Weapons does not make a nation powerful enough (i.e North Korea) GDP does.
Countries that you mentioned above were Nuclear States before the NPT so all N5 nations are accepted as Nuclear States in the guidelines of NPT, there is no violation.
 

a123321r

National Team Player
Oct 27, 2002
5,527
0
bradford, england
#33
motori jan ... pansari is right as the countries who already had nuclear weapons are not supposed to be developing them further where as the uk is considering spending 76 billion pounds for development and maintenance of trident which is clearly illegal but you don't really hear about that on the news everyday around the world with threats of sanctions etc! and yeah obviously whoever has the power dictates the rules but at least let's not fool ourselves into thinking everyone else is playing by the rules!
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#34
Motori, can a country that has oil and with so many governments wanting to control them, be able to have a great GDP? Dont you think a country like Israel would find a reason to get US to destroy them, like they are now? Why would a war monger country allow another competition near it?

In order to have a strong GDP, you need a strong defense.
 
Aug 27, 2005
8,688
0
Band e 209
#35
Motori, can a country that has oil and with so many governments wanting to control them, be able to have a great GDP?
Of course!! Strong political leadership, clear goal for the future and functional economic plans will bring you a GDP not strong defense, I'm not saying strong defense is not necessary just does not have the vital significance of proper management and leadership.

Dont you think a country like Israel would find a reason to get US to destroy them, like they are now? Why would a war monger country allow another competition near it?
You have built up too much grudge against Israel thus are allocating them too much power in order to substantiate your point of view regarding Israel. If Israel was so powerful then how in the world Dubai, KSA or the other members of UAE could be able to built up such a GDP? considering they are all arab nation and systematically have done (or it is proved they tried) some damage to stability and security of Israel.

In order to have a strong GDP, you need a strong defense.
As I said strong defense is not vital for high GDP, Dubai doesn't even have fire cracker but they had managed to build up a substantial GDP and Singapore is in similar situation.
 
Aug 27, 2005
8,688
0
Band e 209
#38
motori jan ... pansari is right as the countries who already had nuclear weapons are not supposed to be developing them further where as the uk is considering spending 76 billion pounds for development and maintenance of trident which is clearly illegal but you don't really hear about that on the news everyday around the world with threats of sanctions etc! and yeah obviously whoever has the power dictates the rules but at least let's not fool ourselves into thinking everyone else is playing by the rules!
Abouzar jAn,
No Pansari is not right!!
I PERSONALLY believe the Treaty works as designed
The amount of the nuclear arsenal in the world has actually decreased after the advent of NPT, check out the US-Soviet nuclear disarmament (reduction) that happened during 70s and 80s, and from the date of the Treaty (1970) until today only 3 Nations has join the NWS club and only 1 was a member (N.Korea which had to withdraw from the pack) and the other 2 were not members (India and Pakistan) not a bad track record.
I would say it is better to read the guidelines of NPT then one will realize that maintaining existing arsenal of recognized Nuclear Weapon States (NWS) will not breach NPT's guideline. US (singed 1968), China (1992), Russia (back then USSR signed 1968), France (1992) and UK (1968) are allowed to develop and maintain NW under the guidelines. Why are they allowed? because US, USSR and UK were the only nations openly possessing such a weapons among the original ratifiers of the Treaty. So other nations had 2 choices when dealing with these 3, don't let them sign and basically let them be on their own (considering the terrifying atmosphere of the atomic 60s) or let them sign the Treaty and keep what they had at least this way they could expect some level of responsibility from them, so other ratifying nations decided to choose the latter.
According to "Article I" of NPT Here are what NWS nations (N5) can or can not do:
These five NWS agree not to transfer "nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices" and "not in any way to assist, encourage, or induce" a non-nuclear weapon state (NNWS) to acquire nuclear weapons. (Note that the word "development" is not stated in the Article)
According to Article II here are the responsibilities of NNWS nations:
NNWS parties to the NPT agree not to "receive," "manufacture" or "acquire" nuclear weapons or to "seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of nuclear weapons"
Article III
NNWS parties also agree to accept safeguards by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to verify that they are not diverting nuclear energy from peaceful uses to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

Did Iran have to sign the Treaty? NO!! but Iran voluntarily signed on the doted line and if we think these rules and regulations are not fair and balance then we have all the RIGHT in the world to withdraw from it, but staying in the boundaries of the Frame and not playing by the rules makes us look like a hypocrite. Israel, India and Pakistan didn't want to sign and that is why they are home free. Iran has to follow the rules unless she decides to withdraw but Israel doesn't have to because the doted line in their application form is still blank, although many people including Noam Chomsky claim Israel is indeed a NWS but it is not officially confirmed because they have never tested a NW and no one has presented any evidence of the existence. Do these NPT guidelines make sense? It depends, if you want to argue from moral stand point may be not, but legally all signatories including IRI must follow the rules until we reach a point of global status in which we will be capable of changing them.
The other problem with Iranian nuclear R&D is not the RIGHT of the nation but it is the manner in which IRI has handled the program so far, examples:
1- NPT allows enrichment R&D to all of its signatories but it MUST be transparent and IAEA must be informed of every step of the way. Iran instead maintained grave secrecy and failed to report actions dated from 1989 to 2003, even in 2003 it was not IRI who informed the IAEA but a MKO operative who blew the whistle.
2- If the program was for peaceful purposes then why did IRI purchased a copy of Chinese Thermo- Nuclear Weapon blueprints from Pakistani AQ Khan? and why did IRI kept this purchase info from IAEA all the way until it was surfaced by AQ Khan himself. Libya also purchased a copy of the same plan from same person but later on abandoned the ambitions in 2003. Iran could easily inform IAEA of this purchase and claim it was for Research only and not for Development purposes.
3- Almost every nation who has or want to extract energy from Uranium has built Conventional Light Water Reactors but contrary to the norm Iran has decided to go with clandestine # centrifuges all under ground. When you have nothing to hide then why should you hide?
4- Why is IRI so pre-occupied with enrichment program when there is NO single reactor being even close to operational level so IRI could pump the controversial FUEL in? That is equivalent of some one pumping gasoline (petrol) without even owning a Car.
5-Let me admit it again I'm economic illiterate but even using a simple calculator you can come up with this conclusion that economically it is feasible for Iran to build conventional light water reactors and import the necessary fuel from abroad because Iran needs around 4% grade U-235 to get the reactors HOT but considering the quality and amount of Uranium available from domestic resources, cost of building and maintaining over 4000 Chinese designed centrifuges will exceed the amount which we can spend to import the light water multiple times. Some one with more knowledge in this field convinced me (and many others) that only cost of maintaining several 1000 centrifuges will actually be higher than the cost of importing readily available fuel in the world market let alone the gazillion $ we must spend to build them.
Above are the examples of ambiguities from legal stand point which comes to my simple mind and if we are talking from moral stand point then I could say that is one word which has never been included in IRI's dictionary and I'm yet to be convinced that IRI is morally equivalent and/or equally responsible like many other nations in the world as a matter of fact it is fair to claim IRI stands alone on those regards.
 
Feb 22, 2005
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9
#39
Motori, but Dubai is not a threat to Israel. It has no industry and does not import anything but oil. It does not try to build weapons, nuclear energy, etc.. and sell it.

I do agree with you on management and other things you mentioned.
 
Aug 27, 2005
8,688
0
Band e 209
#40
Motori, but Dubai is not a threat to Israel. It has no industry and does not import anything but oil. It does not try to build weapons, nuclear energy, etc.. and sell it.

I do agree with you on management and other things you mentioned.
Lord jAn,
You mentioned "strong defense is necessary for high GDP" that was the reason I mentioned Dubai.