Egypt' second act

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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#1
Well, looks like the plan is progressing right on schedule. First came the "elections", then this. Does this sound familiar?

CAIRO (AP) — They showed a military-style precision: Crowds of bearded Islamists proclaiming allegiance to Egypt's President Mohammed Morsi and chanting "God is great" as they descended on tents set up by anti-Morsi protesters outside the presidential palace, swinging clubs and firing rifles. They set up a detention facility, interrogating and beating captured protesters.

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-opposition-fears-violence-brotherhood-114529650.html
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
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#2
Like clockwork! I started a thread a couple of weeks ago about Egypt going down the same path as Iran... The only nice thing about these Islamists is that they're not very bright, and predictable as hell which means people will eventually catch on (like they did with the church in Europe) and not go down the same path again. Although I have not seen any references to Iran from any political figures in Egypt, I am certain the opposition is not oblivious to the situation.

For one, the military held on to power for a while and to some extent has some control even now (i.e. they followed more in the footsteps of Turkey). Another thing the Egyptians have going for them, which we didn't in the late 70's is the internet and how fast information can spread - it's much harder to keep people in the dark now about events than it was 35 years ago. There are three other important things to consider as well:

1 - Tourism: The majority of Egypt's GDP comes from this segment and the majority of Egyptians realize this. As the Salafi dude from Alexandria showed during the elections, by wanting to tear down the pyramids as the symbols of polytheism, Islamism and tourism just don't go together. Do what the IR did and ban alcohol and Sharm El-Sheikh will be a ghost town. Force people to wear "manto" and "roosari" and no tourist is going to brave 40°C temperatures to see the pyramids. The Egyptians can not afford to lost their tourist dollars and don't have the luxury of relying on their oil revenue like we did.

2 - US Aid: It's a huge some of money and although Islamists will eventually say f.. the US, like they're doing in Iran now, despite how much help they received from the US both for the Iranian revolution and the Egyptian one, Egypt's economy is at the brink, not like the situation in Iran in 79. Even the loos of that aid will push them over the edge.

3 - The IMF load: Interestingly enough, this seems to be their only saving grace at the moment. Mursi just told the Egyptians a few hours ago they have to pay higher taxes. It's one of the pre-conditions for the IMF loan to be released and it was expected next week. Within 2 hours, he had to retract that statement, the IMF delayed its release of the money into January and with foreign reserves at half of what they were when the revolution started, any more of this type of instability and uncertainty is eroding away at any gains the Islamists have made.

What these Islamists don't understand and never will is that despite being democratically elected, the constitution of a country has nothing to do with democracy - it can NOT be the will of the majority over the minority when its sole purpose is to be as inclusive as possible and to protect the rights of the minorities. As such, constitutions (including a future Iranian one) should be written by a group that represents every sector of society and that representation can not exceed the representation of any other group. And the decision on the final text has to be unanimous - that's the only way that you'll prevent one particular group from forcing its views on the society as a whole. Yes, Islamists can be represented, but every one Islamist, there has to be a secularist, a Christian, a Jew, etc., etc.
 

shahinc

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May 8, 2005
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#3
This news is BS. Islam is religion of Peace and these men are not real muslims. they must have been Israel Spies because Islam love democracy and freedom.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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#4
The real problem is not the poor and unitellegent but rather the intellgent ones that are taken by Islam and follow it. The problem is people like Bazargan, Shah, and so many such as the ones on this site that follow it. The poor and unintellegent dont get into power or have an Islamic government without the help of these religious educated.

Morsi himself is one of these educated ones. Now, he has created a situation that the real Islam followers (the poor and uneducated) are now getting empowered and if Morsi does not follow their wishes they will end up where Iranian ones ended up, dead.

Problem is with a religion and philosophy that is so badly written that no one understands what is the real meaning of the writer of it. And it is suppose to be from the creator who created this universe? Surely, this creator knew that majority of its own created humans will be poor and not able to understand his philosophy.

Problem is with a small group of educated Islamist such as in Iran and on this site who think they are following real Islam and would go to heaven and billions are not following it correctly, which translates to burning in the fire of hell.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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BH, I admire you optimism, but...we are dealing with ideologues. Anything can be sacrificed.

Tourism... Remember our beloved "shomal". The entire region lived off tourism. Did they give a hoot to the economics argument when they shut it down. It is truly a sad place now.

US Aid... Iran is standing in line to give.

IMF...Money is no object. The "bearded Islamists" will get theirs no matter what. Screw everybody else.

The difference between Iran and Egypt as I see it from here is the military. I think they are next in Egypt. All they have to do is to find another Fardoust.
 

masoudA

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Oct 16, 2008
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#6
Let's not forget one important factor....
Just like in Iran the left paved the way for ISlamists in Egypt too.
Even our leftists Iranian friends fell for it again - right here on ISP - many of you were praising the so called Arab Spring.
Your hate for nationalist dictators, coupled with your eagerness for a true democracy, and your aspirations for power - makes you perfect prays for the Islamists!!
The only hope the Egyptians have is their Army - which unfortunately may have the same fortunes as ours did........I hope the fact that they are financed by USA does not make them fully susceptible to Obama. But one thing is for sure - Egyptians leftists better leave that country ASAP.......
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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#7
Masoud, you forget that the prev Egyptian government was a dictatorship. And every dicatatorship ends at some point. It is still too early to tell what will happen with Egypt.

Let's not forget one important factor....
Just like in Iran the left paved the way for ISlamists in Egypt too.
Even our leftists Iranian friends fell for it again - right here on ISP - many of you were praising the so called Arab Spring.
Your hate for nationalist dictators, coupled with your eagerness for a true democracy, and your aspirations for power - makes you perfect prays for the Islamists!!
The only hope the Egyptians have is their Army - which unfortunately may have the same fortunes as ours did........I hope the fact that they are financed by USA does not make them fully susceptible to Obama. But one thing is for sure - Egyptians leftists better leave that country ASAP.......
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Masoud, you forget that the prev Egyptian government was a dictatorship. And every dicatatorship ends at some point. It is still too early to tell what will happen with Egypt.
Be careful now. This is what we said about the Shah. I think you judgment is colored by who pushed Mubarak out. You don't want him to go down as another Carter.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#9
Put blame where it is due, on the people of Iran and Shah. Iranians wanted democracy and Carter's action created that for them. Now, if there are muslims and follow Koran and Muhamad and end up down the toilet, you dont go blaming Carter. As for Shah, his lack of competence, decision making, and many mistakes he made, such as lack of vision that saw him throw the 2500 years party, lack of vision to know what is going on around the county, etc caused his downfall.

Islam had already badly infected the country and the virus would have taken over at some point. Which happend to be in 1979. When you have millions infected by it, what else did you expect? Shah himself was badly infected.


Be careful now. This is what we said about the Shah. I think you judgment is colored by who pushed Mubarak out. You don't want him to go down as another Carter.
 

masoudA

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Oct 16, 2008
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#10
Masoud, you forget that the prev Egyptian government was a dictatorship. And every dicatatorship ends at some point. It is still too early to tell what will happen with Egypt.
Lordi - I did not - I said "Nationalist Dictators"..........just like the shah, mubarak, Asad, King Hossein,......are dictators - but they are all "Nationalist" dictators. Obama handlers have now decided to change them all into "Islamist" dictators.........I think in their social engineering schemes they feel it's best for the rest of the world, since apparantly under Islamic regimes people tend to be ok with lower GDP's!!!
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
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#11
Be careful now. This is what we said about the Shah. I think you judgment is colored by who pushed Mubarak out. You don't want him to go down as another Carter.
Come on bro! If anything the Republicans were complaining that Obama didn't do enough to help the Arab Spring, particularly in speeding it up and spreading it. They wanted more intervention in Egypt, Libya and Syria to help the revolutions and frankly, I was totally with them (particularly McCain) on this issue. But you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in these situations. Can't blame Obama for not having done more and having done more wouldn't have yielded results that would be any different.

There's a certain learning curve these countries need to go through before you can have a fully democratic and secular nation. It took some European nations centuries to implement this and we're 35+ years in Iran with no end in sight. You can't just expect these things to happen over night nor can you force them to. It is what it is and Islamism is a force to be contended with for months and years and decades to come. Interference from the West will only empower them, like it did in Iran. The best thing to do in these situation IMHO is to sit on the sideline give them some rope and let them figure out over time how to hang themselves (like the IR is doing now) - at the end of the day, they may be fruitful in numbers, but they're not the brightest bunch.
 
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Behrooz_C

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Dec 10, 2005
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#12
Can you imagine the reverse situation. If Obama hadn't helped Libya and hadn't backed the popular uprising in Egypt, Flint would be saying Obama is supporting dictators against people's wishes.

Wouldn't you now Flint? Come on, admit it, it's easy with hindsight, isn't it.
 

shahinc

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May 8, 2005
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#13
I supported the Arab Spring uprising not because I thought it will lead to democracy in those countries. I think muslim countries , especially the ones with majority of hardliners, should once and for all, feel the filth and backward laws and ruling of " Today's Islam". They need to feel what it feels like and how it can change their lives and ... This is the only way for them to see the real face of "Today's Islam" and Islamic Clergies. Look at Iran and the popularity of Islam among the people and compare it to 35-40 years ago.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Can you imagine the reverse situation. If Obama hadn't helped Libya and hadn't backed the popular uprising in Egypt, Flint would be saying Obama is supporting dictators against people's wishes.

Wouldn't you now Flint? Come on, admit it, it's easy with hindsight, isn't it.
I am on record saying that , sadly, if you leave these countries to bring democracy all by themselves all you get is the rule of thugs. Only one model has worked. You go in on foot, drag the dictator from his palace and STAY there until they get it right. It worked in Germany, Japan, Panama and, gasp, more recently in Iraq.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#15
I am on record saying that , sadly, if you leave these countries to bring democracy all by themselves all you get is the rule of thugs. Only one model has worked. You go in on foot, drag the dictator from his palace and STAY there until they get it right. It worked in Germany, Japan, Panama and, gasp, more recently in Iraq.
There was no real choice in case of Germany and Japan and in fact the US did sit on the sidelines for too long and the eventual decision to go in was the only option. In Panama's case, there was no fanatic backward ideology (i.e. Islamism or hard core Communism) to hamper the post invasion progress. And Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan and N. Korea IMHO are perfect examples of how there is no quick fix in these situations and how countries will have to adopt and build civil institutions on their own and over time, particularly in cases where hard core ideologies exist in those societies.
 
Oct 20, 2003
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#16
I am on record saying that , sadly, if you leave these countries to bring democracy all by themselves all you get is the rule of thugs. Only one model has worked. You go in on foot, drag the dictator from his palace and STAY there until they get it right. It worked in Germany, Japan, Panama and, gasp, more recently in Iraq.
Your views of how democracy takes root is very bizarre. If we follow your logic, we should be witnessing a flourishing democracy in Afghanistan.
How your theory holds as it relates to India, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile.......?
Remember what one of your heroes (Don Rumsfeld said; "democracy is messy"? It takes time for the people who have grew up under dictatorships to learn how to respect the right of others, respect for the rule of law and tolerating the opposing views. Anybody who expects a complete democracy as soon is a dictator is removed, is utterly naive. To quote your buddy Don Rumsfeld again, the road to democratic is " a long hard slog". Fast food type democracies won't last very long.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Your views of how democracy takes root is very bizarre. If we follow your logic, we should be witnessing a flourishing democracy in Afghanistan.
How your theory holds as it relates to India, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile.......?
Remember what one of your heroes (Don Rumsfeld said; "democracy is messy"? It takes time for the people who have grew up under dictatorships to learn how to respect the right of others, respect for the rule of law and tolerating the opposing views. Anybody who expects a complete democracy as soon is a dictator is removed, is utterly naive. To quote your buddy Don Rumsfeld again, the road to democratic is " a long hard slog". Fast food type democracies won't last very long.
I assure you Iran is not on the "road to democracy" no matter ow long you wait. People who say democracy is messy and by inference are asking for more time think that the country is on a positive trajectory. It just needs more time. Time is not the problem. Does Iran need more time to become more democratic? Of course not. This is it. This is the steady state in current Iran. You keep the current system in place and 100 years from now it is gonna be the same because there is no mechanism for change and evolution. 34 years a is a long time to detect trends.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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#19
There was no real choice in case of Germany and Japan and in fact the US did sit on the sidelines for too long and the eventual decision to go in was the only option. In Panama's case, there was no fanatic backward ideology (i.e. Islamism or hard core Communism) to hamper the post invasion progress. And Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan and N. Korea IMHO are perfect examples of how there is no quick fix in these situations and how countries will have to adopt and build civil institutions on their own and over time, particularly in cases where hard core ideologies exist in those societies.
You are mixing up a bunch of things...

Germany and Japan--- I am not talking about prewar era. I am talking about post war. Germany was under formal occupation until 1955. Until 1949 the country had US-appointed military governors. Same for Japan. US ran the country down to the police force. As for Vietnam, I assure you if North Vietnam was defeated and unified with the south, you'd have an economic power house. Instead what they go was reeducation camps. Same for N. Korea. Is it a coincidence that Samsung and Hyundai are not in the north? Is there anyone who believes that Korea would not be a better place today if N. Korea had lost the war to America?
 
Oct 20, 2003
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#20
I assure you Iran is not on the "road to democracy" no matter ow long you wait. People who say democracy is messy and by inference are asking for more time think that the country is on a positive trajectory. It just needs more time. Time is not the problem. Does Iran need more time to become more democratic? Of course not. This is it. This is the steady state in current Iran. You keep the current system in place and 100 years from now it is gonna be the same because there is no mechanism for change and evolution. 34 years a is a long time to detect trends.
First, this thread is about Egypt and my post was a general observation, I mentioned many countries who have become democratic without the help of others, I do not know how you picked Iran. Second , I wanted to refute your theory that democracy should be forced upon people and there is no other way. Third, 34 years is not a long time in a life of an old nation such as Iran; besides we have had movements (i.e. green movement) albeit not fruitful yet, but the desire for democracy exists among the people, it is a matter of time.
btw: Based on your theory of installed democracy by an outside force, how come Afghanistan is not a democracy yet? Indeed the present government is as corrupt as any other government in Afghanistan history.
 
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