Oldman Jaan
I understand what you are saying - I too believe at some point (even while Mohammad was alive), Islam crossed the line of being a religion into being a tool of Arab expansionism - and still ungoing, hence mosques being used as bases intead of center for prayers.....
However - Islam can be and is a religion to at least some of it's believers. Unlike what Osman did or what Khamenei is doing - there are Moslems who have learned how to weed through the mess and use the good elements of Islam towards better living and hopefully enlightenment. I think what Deerouz and Abz are saying makes perfect sense. The world needs to ID the defaults - and not allow Khameneis of the word to shove them into our lives under the name of FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
I understand what you are saying - I too believe at some point (even while Mohammad was alive), Islam crossed the line of being a religion into being a tool of Arab expansionism - and still ungoing, hence mosques being used as bases intead of center for prayers.....
However - Islam can be and is a religion to at least some of it's believers. Unlike what Osman did or what Khamenei is doing - there are Moslems who have learned how to weed through the mess and use the good elements of Islam towards better living and hopefully enlightenment. I think what Deerouz and Abz are saying makes perfect sense. The world needs to ID the defaults - and not allow Khameneis of the word to shove them into our lives under the name of FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
As others have noted, there decision is likely to be overturned seeing as runs counter to the legal norms entrenched in the Swiss and European systems...
How convenient that you missed this.
And we could venture the guess that the results of the referendum were due to a natural xenophobia that most national and cultural communities have.
And we could venture the guess that the results of the referendum were due to a natural xenophobia that most national and cultural communities have.
Switzerland is a conservative country and its nation's decision has mainly to do with "image" and elements and prospects associated with that image. The image they have of minarets is not associated with mosques containing peaceful worshipers praying to their Creator, rather has to do with political show of force by angry mobs shouting slogans of death to this country or that country which as they have said in their interviews will eventually lead to the practice of outdated and much feared Sharia law in their home. It also has to do with the fear of changing the landscape of their small country to an Islamic one seen in the Arab world. Right or wrong, this is the image that is portrayed in their minds and Muslims should try to change this image, as opposed to trying to force people into accepting that Islam is a "religion of peace". The "moderate Muslim" community has little presence in the real world and its voice is often silenced by the much more vocal and active radical groups. As Christ said, "a tree is known by its fruits". Saying what Islam is or supposed to be fades in comparison with the actions of its followers. Be a "Muslim", as opposed to trying to describe it!
hala man moondam, in menareh gheir az ghashangi be che dardi mikhoreh? Man khodam ghiafasho doost daram chon mano yaade dorane bachegi mindazeh, vali hala agar man tasmim gereftam too Ghotbe Shomal zendegi konam va oonja menareh nabood in dalil nemishe ke ta residam oonja Astina ro bala bezanam va shoroo konam menareh sakhtan.
aman az bikari...
aman az bikari...
I am going to disagree with you on this one.
Correct, it is a democrcy. But, along the same logic, the majority of people in the state of Texas, if they are allowed to, might vote to kick you and other immigrants or minorities out of your home today just because of their phobia or because you are a darker non-christian.
I am sure you know that the majority in the south ,through a democratic process of course, was behind slavery up to 1880s, and behind segregation up to 1960s. Just as an example, in the state of Virginia, interracial marriage between black and white was a crime up t0 60s!
I know we all have tasted the bitter medicine of (political) Islam one sort or another, and I know many of us fundomentally have reasons not to beleive in or practice Islam, but we should not let it affect our judgement. This act is inapropriate and cleraly racial in my view unless someone can help me find the connection between silent menarites and terrorism. Don't get me wrong here, of course I beleive native Swiss have the right to ban menarrites or simply block the influx of muslim immigrants and keep letting other immigrants in, but then they need to be ready to be rightfully branded as a country that has less than enough respect for the human rights.
Imagine in America there is a referendum to ban star of David....
Correct, it is a democrcy. But, along the same logic, the majority of people in the state of Texas, if they are allowed to, might vote to kick you and other immigrants or minorities out of your home today just because of their phobia or because you are a darker non-christian.
I am sure you know that the majority in the south ,through a democratic process of course, was behind slavery up to 1880s, and behind segregation up to 1960s. Just as an example, in the state of Virginia, interracial marriage between black and white was a crime up t0 60s!
I know we all have tasted the bitter medicine of (political) Islam one sort or another, and I know many of us fundomentally have reasons not to beleive in or practice Islam, but we should not let it affect our judgement. This act is inapropriate and cleraly racial in my view unless someone can help me find the connection between silent menarites and terrorism. Don't get me wrong here, of course I beleive native Swiss have the right to ban menarrites or simply block the influx of muslim immigrants and keep letting other immigrants in, but then they need to be ready to be rightfully branded as a country that has less than enough respect for the human rights.
Imagine in America there is a referendum to ban star of David....
)
What is function of minareh and in what way is considered a pillar to practice and excercise Islam?
I'm no expert, but is minare used for "moazen" to do azan ( in absence of clock,watch ,loud speaker,......)?
Every muslim, I hope, knows how to look up prayer time and schedule to be at masjid. Some consider minare an architectural facet anda beautiful, and many consider calling for prayer ( azan goii) a bit annoying .
Does civil laws allow broadcasting azan 5 times a day in a loud speaker? do swiss muslims actually expect for someone to go up minare and scream azan?????
What is the fuss here???
They didn't say don't do namaz?
If such a vote for erection or ban of it was put in my community, I would have voted in favor of banning minareh too, for cultural heritage and architectural reasons, without being bothered that I have infringed on anyone's right to practice their faith. They can still do namaz va rooze without a minare ,can't they????
I'm no expert, but is minare used for "moazen" to do azan ( in absence of clock,watch ,loud speaker,......)?
Every muslim, I hope, knows how to look up prayer time and schedule to be at masjid. Some consider minare an architectural facet anda beautiful, and many consider calling for prayer ( azan goii) a bit annoying .
Does civil laws allow broadcasting azan 5 times a day in a loud speaker? do swiss muslims actually expect for someone to go up minare and scream azan?????
What is the fuss here???
They didn't say don't do namaz?
If such a vote for erection or ban of it was put in my community, I would have voted in favor of banning minareh too, for cultural heritage and architectural reasons, without being bothered that I have infringed on anyone's right to practice their faith. They can still do namaz va rooze without a minare ,can't they????
Only Islamic countries allow call to prayer; in Saudi, religious police even chases Muslims to round them up in mosques for prayer! This ruling however, by no means prevents Muslims from having mosques or praying in them. It seems to be an attempt to take away the political "image" and in a way conform Islam to the local practices and culture, which should be little inconvenience if praying is ALL people want to do in mosques. It is amusing though that some consider this as a "persecution" of Muslims! In fact, it may do the Muslims some good and open their eyes to the brutality of real persecutions and injustices that have been going on apathetically in their own countries for decades!
BiAzar aziz,
I am not sure if it is true or not but the report was saying that 4 minnarites currently in Swiss are silent so I am not sure loud Azan has been an issue, if it was, they could simply have passed a law specifically to ban Azan.
But what the fuss is about? To me it is about formalizing/legalizing hatred in a country that is a famous symbol for tolerance and peace and other nations look up to it. I personally don't have any problem if for example a bunch of skinheads go and bring down a menarite or two in Switzerland since it is still categorised as a random act of hate. However, when it goes as a chapter to law that majority can force a minority to abondon a harmless act that has religous value to them, I start thinking something awfully wrong is happening.
I am not sure if it is true or not but the report was saying that 4 minnarites currently in Swiss are silent so I am not sure loud Azan has been an issue, if it was, they could simply have passed a law specifically to ban Azan.
But what the fuss is about? To me it is about formalizing/legalizing hatred in a country that is a famous symbol for tolerance and peace and other nations look up to it. I personally don't have any problem if for example a bunch of skinheads go and bring down a menarite or two in Switzerland since it is still categorised as a random act of hate. However, when it goes as a chapter to law that majority can force a minority to abondon a harmless act that has religous value to them, I start thinking something awfully wrong is happening.
I agree abz - and I say let's help and try to identify some of the problems.
1- Menar - as a structure it is no problem - but as a place to wake everyone at dawn - then it is a problem - do you agree?
I understand churches also ring bells - but they don't do it at dawn.....
2- Hejab - this is where the problem starts. Abz - do you think hejab must be imposed on girls? Is hejab one of the problems we need to weed out? Right now in America - there are civil laws that allows the state to take children away from abusive families - do you consider Hejab abuse of a 9 year old girl? - I do.
1- Menar - as a structure it is no problem - but as a place to wake everyone at dawn - then it is a problem - do you agree?
I understand churches also ring bells - but they don't do it at dawn.....
2- Hejab - this is where the problem starts. Abz - do you think hejab must be imposed on girls? Is hejab one of the problems we need to weed out? Right now in America - there are civil laws that allows the state to take children away from abusive families - do you consider Hejab abuse of a 9 year old girl? - I do.
That's a very good point. I think the discussion strayed from the original point when it became a debate over whether a majority has the right to do anything they want or not, and that how much it affects the democratic nature of the system.
One thing though is that why something that can be easily handle through zoning laws, are put to a referendum over (supposedly) a religious issue. If it was to send a message, IMO it was clumsy. Some friends gave examples of how certain immigrant muslim groups harass Bihejab and non-religious people in their communities. Well, banning menaeh would make no difference there. Stiff up penalties for such harrassments. Charge those people with hate crimes. Revoke their citizenship and Expel them from the country. that's far more effective.
Instead the Europeans ban minarats, but continue to import radical islamists into their countries and allow them to group and recruit and expand. Which one is more dangerous?
One thing though is that why something that can be easily handle through zoning laws, are put to a referendum over (supposedly) a religious issue. If it was to send a message, IMO it was clumsy. Some friends gave examples of how certain immigrant muslim groups harass Bihejab and non-religious people in their communities. Well, banning menaeh would make no difference there. Stiff up penalties for such harrassments. Charge those people with hate crimes. Revoke their citizenship and Expel them from the country. that's far more effective.
Instead the Europeans ban minarats, but continue to import radical islamists into their countries and allow them to group and recruit and expand. Which one is more dangerous?
The responses here are very sad and I find it very hard to see where they are coming from.
biAzar, if you are truly for preserving cultural heritage of the location you live in, then I am sure that you forbid yourself to speak Persian in a public location in the US (or wherever else you live). Also, I expect that you would be among the most zealous individuals in a campaign to ban foreign text from banners, signs, etc. and unless you boycott stores that carry Persian titles you would be quite hypocritical.
Masoud, it's clear that the minarets are not used for calling people to prayer in Switzerland and I don't believe there was ever a case of such an event occurring. There are 4 minarets in all of Switzerland with only 5% of that country being Muslim. It's so clear that this move was made due to intolerance and belief of other cultures as inferior. Right now you are on the cheering side because it fits your personal political game but very soon you'll fall on the receiving end of this hatred as well and will scream out against the very discrimination you cheered for.
biAzar, if you are truly for preserving cultural heritage of the location you live in, then I am sure that you forbid yourself to speak Persian in a public location in the US (or wherever else you live). Also, I expect that you would be among the most zealous individuals in a campaign to ban foreign text from banners, signs, etc. and unless you boycott stores that carry Persian titles you would be quite hypocritical.
Masoud, it's clear that the minarets are not used for calling people to prayer in Switzerland and I don't believe there was ever a case of such an event occurring. There are 4 minarets in all of Switzerland with only 5% of that country being Muslim. It's so clear that this move was made due to intolerance and belief of other cultures as inferior. Right now you are on the cheering side because it fits your personal political game but very soon you'll fall on the receiving end of this hatred as well and will scream out against the very discrimination you cheered for.
اولا کی گفته که معماری اسلامی خیلی عالیه. اسلام که معماری نداشته. در سرتاسر عربستان زمان محمد عرب یک ساختمان درست و حسابی نبوده جز خیمه و چادر صحرائی .
راجع به مناره عرض کنم قد متش به خیلی پیش از اسلام برمیگرده زمانی که بشر به نیروهای طبیعی اعتقاد داشته و چون آنها را نمیشناخته برای هر چیزی که خدائی قائل بوده . آلت تناسلی مرد هم بدلیل تولید مثل و هم لدت حاصله از نزدیکی برای انسان ناشناس حکم نیروی خدائی داشته و بهمین دلیل اول از همه سومری ها بودند که معابد شان را بصورت یک مناره که اگر در ساختمان آن دقت کنید درست شبیه آلت مرد است. و دو گنبد که شبیه تخم مرد بوده میساخته اند که البته مثل اینکه بعدا متوجه این تشبح شده وتبدیل به دو گنبد و یک منار شده.
دلیل استفاده از مناره هم فقط اذن خواندن و آزار سایر مردم است و نه چیز دیگر قبول ندارید تشریف ببرید ترکیه ، ایران اسهالی ، سمسمارستان (عربستان) و سایر بلاد سمسمار خوران.
اسلام دینی است سیاسی و تمام هم و غم مسلمین هم تصرف بلاد کفار است حال با جنگ نشد با تمام وسایلی که ممکن است تولید مثل کاکرچ وار یا پیشروی حلزونی و قدم بقدم.
این خریت و سادگی محرز مردم دنیای غرب است اگر گول دمکراسی را بخورند و بدشمن اجاره پیشرفت بدهند.
مطلب دیگر مسئله بهداشتی دین اسلام است. آیا هیچوقت گذراتان به مسجد حتی برای شاشیدن هم که شده افتاده. بوی تهوع آور توالتهای مسجد یادتان رفته. منکه بجز برای شاشیدن بمسجد نرفتم مگر برای مراسم ختم مادر و بعضی از بستگان. هر وقت مستراح مسجد میرفتم اول مثل اینکه میخواهم زیر آبی بروم نفس عمیق میکشیدم و با دو میرفتم مستراح و سپس با سرعت میآمدم بیرون.
هنوز که هنوز است مشگل بهداشت مسجد همان است که بوده بدلیل اینکه گاهی حسب اتفاق میروم مسجد اوکلند در شمال کالیفرنیا هنوز همان مردم یوبس اسلامی و همان توالتهای بو گندو بر قرار است .
تبلیغ اسلام برای سایر مردم بر دو نوع است یکی اسلامی که از طرف پدر و مادر بفرزند حقنه میشود که جز بزور مخصوصا پدر برای فرزندان است مخصوصا فرزند دختر یکی هم برای سایران که خیلی با سیاست در باغ سبز توام است و بیشتر پیروان جدید اسلام از ملت بدبخت و در مانده و روانی که از همه جا رانده شده اند.
اگر دین اسلام دینی بود که کاری بسایر مردم نداشت مثل سایر ادیان باینکه من آدم بیدینی هستم و بطور کلی با هیچ دینی حال نمیکنم دین اسلام هم مثل سایر ادیان بود.
راجع به مناره عرض کنم قد متش به خیلی پیش از اسلام برمیگرده زمانی که بشر به نیروهای طبیعی اعتقاد داشته و چون آنها را نمیشناخته برای هر چیزی که خدائی قائل بوده . آلت تناسلی مرد هم بدلیل تولید مثل و هم لدت حاصله از نزدیکی برای انسان ناشناس حکم نیروی خدائی داشته و بهمین دلیل اول از همه سومری ها بودند که معابد شان را بصورت یک مناره که اگر در ساختمان آن دقت کنید درست شبیه آلت مرد است. و دو گنبد که شبیه تخم مرد بوده میساخته اند که البته مثل اینکه بعدا متوجه این تشبح شده وتبدیل به دو گنبد و یک منار شده.
دلیل استفاده از مناره هم فقط اذن خواندن و آزار سایر مردم است و نه چیز دیگر قبول ندارید تشریف ببرید ترکیه ، ایران اسهالی ، سمسمارستان (عربستان) و سایر بلاد سمسمار خوران.
اسلام دینی است سیاسی و تمام هم و غم مسلمین هم تصرف بلاد کفار است حال با جنگ نشد با تمام وسایلی که ممکن است تولید مثل کاکرچ وار یا پیشروی حلزونی و قدم بقدم.
این خریت و سادگی محرز مردم دنیای غرب است اگر گول دمکراسی را بخورند و بدشمن اجاره پیشرفت بدهند.
مطلب دیگر مسئله بهداشتی دین اسلام است. آیا هیچوقت گذراتان به مسجد حتی برای شاشیدن هم که شده افتاده. بوی تهوع آور توالتهای مسجد یادتان رفته. منکه بجز برای شاشیدن بمسجد نرفتم مگر برای مراسم ختم مادر و بعضی از بستگان. هر وقت مستراح مسجد میرفتم اول مثل اینکه میخواهم زیر آبی بروم نفس عمیق میکشیدم و با دو میرفتم مستراح و سپس با سرعت میآمدم بیرون.
هنوز که هنوز است مشگل بهداشت مسجد همان است که بوده بدلیل اینکه گاهی حسب اتفاق میروم مسجد اوکلند در شمال کالیفرنیا هنوز همان مردم یوبس اسلامی و همان توالتهای بو گندو بر قرار است .
تبلیغ اسلام برای سایر مردم بر دو نوع است یکی اسلامی که از طرف پدر و مادر بفرزند حقنه میشود که جز بزور مخصوصا پدر برای فرزندان است مخصوصا فرزند دختر یکی هم برای سایران که خیلی با سیاست در باغ سبز توام است و بیشتر پیروان جدید اسلام از ملت بدبخت و در مانده و روانی که از همه جا رانده شده اند.
اگر دین اسلام دینی بود که کاری بسایر مردم نداشت مثل سایر ادیان باینکه من آدم بیدینی هستم و بطور کلی با هیچ دینی حال نمیکنم دین اسلام هم مثل سایر ادیان بود.
Dude, why do you keep linking this to IR?
IR does alot of shit wrong, and I don't think you've seen me endorse their policies here. If every country was to say we can do such and such because IR does the same to its people, then where the hell would we have all gone? I am Shia (not practicing), but I think alot of people here forget the majority of victims of IR have been these same Muslims. I don't want Bahais, Sunnis, Jews, Christians.... anybody being persecuted for their beliefs in Iran or anywhere else in the world. It has to be fair across the board, granted unfortunately alot of places do it alot smaller, but rest assured the changes will eventually occur.
Thats why it hurts me to see members here who I thought were open-minded or at least impartial towards these sort of things, siding against 4 minarets in a country where the call to prayer is already banned.
IR does alot of shit wrong, and I don't think you've seen me endorse their policies here. If every country was to say we can do such and such because IR does the same to its people, then where the hell would we have all gone? I am Shia (not practicing), but I think alot of people here forget the majority of victims of IR have been these same Muslims. I don't want Bahais, Sunnis, Jews, Christians.... anybody being persecuted for their beliefs in Iran or anywhere else in the world. It has to be fair across the board, granted unfortunately alot of places do it alot smaller, but rest assured the changes will eventually occur.
Thats why it hurts me to see members here who I thought were open-minded or at least impartial towards these sort of things, siding against 4 minarets in a country where the call to prayer is already banned.