God - I hate Carter

[khodam]

Carter didn't ask Shah to leave because he wanted more freedom or democracy for Iranians. Carter administration not having a clue that USSR will be toppled to rubbles in 14 years and being under great influence from Zbigniew Brzezinski (Carter's National Security Adviser) who strongly believed Islam could be a formidable asset for contending and containing communism and insisted on promoting and finally establishing an Islamic government in Iran, which will be well capable of putting an end to Soviets expansion in the M.E. with minimum cost to US. Carter administration did not initiate the uprising but decided to manipulate the movement and contribute to Islamic government establishment.

Most of your assertions are just speculations, and pretty baseless ones for that too. Of course Carter had no idea that USSR would collapse, not a single soul did in 1979. When Carter and Brzezinski supported mujahideen, they were truly freedom fighters. It was only years later, after Carter had left the White House, that as a result of infiltrating Arab fighters they became an ideological force. The claim that the US wanted to replace its most important ally in the region with an anti-American regime to confront USSR is so laughable I'm not going to even begin discussing it. Reagan Administration was really the main culprit in letting that branch of fundamentalism getting out of control with Wahabi funding.

Carter's push for human rights did not start the revolution. If anything, those changes were the only way to prevent a revolution. Alas, it was way too late for Iran.

 

[AMirza]

No Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeasing you here Khodam Jaan - Yes I think and certainly hope the world is sane enough to be out to fight terrorism - and even if they are not - I for one am !! I certainly don't agree with Classic Wars devised by the arms Industry and implemented by politicians - It's evil and it has to stop. But classic wars between armies in one thing, blowing up civilians is quiet something else !!! that is where as one person, I draw the line.

And if you ask me - there is no nuclear problem between Iran and America - it's all for public consumption. Just think about it;
- 65 million Iranians want a regime change,
- America which has beein pissed for 27 years, then 911 happened (or did it not ?) - it changed America forever - 3000 dead, they will make sure it will never happen again.
- Brits enjoying IRI for 27 years - recognized the monster it had created and wants to surgicaly remove them with as little harm to it's image and operations in the middle east.
- EU - has been feeding off the Brits pass-moondeh in Iran, the hate to lose it - but they rather lose it than have 911 happen on their soil.
- China nd Russia - the same - have been feeding off the Brits pass-mandeh.

So what happens when one considers all ? - a crisis is the best solution to keep 65 million Iranians Sare-Kar - over atom as far as IRI is concerned !!! wooow - who knew one day the world shall witness "Sineh Zani Atomi" in Iran !!!!
Imagine the millions in Iran sleeping better thinking about the yellow cake !!!! as for the players - USA can't come and say I want to change the regime - it's against UN rules, neither can the Brits !! At the same time, the Brits, EU, and others can't come out and say we are enjoying ridiculously CHEAP Iranian resources - can they ?

Sorry for the long post - but stop thinking about the atom crisis and fekr noon bash keh kharbozeh abeh !! :cigar:

 

[khodam]

And if you ask me - there is no nuclear problem between Iran and America - it's all for public consumption. Just think about it;

.....

Wow Wow slow down!!! LOL. If you were trying to confuse me, then good job! Still you didn't answer a simple question. What would you advise the US to do about the issue, crisis or not? Nothing? Anything?

 

[AMirza]

Again - there is no nukilar issue - it's just an excuse - so why should I or America want to do anything about it ? As I said - it's an excuse for public consumption. A crisis pushed by America - why ?
Because when and if they ever have to play the "War/occupation" - as they did in Iraq - they will have the most public and international support - even military support !!! or at least not facing any opposing arimes other than Iran's - as it was the case in Iraq. Get it ?
Plesae feel free to ask any questions if you are still confused.

However - what should us as Iranians do ?
A- we can make life easy for us and the Americans by taking care of business - internaly - today.
B- We can sit around and do nothing - and watch America (and the world) do away with Akhoonds (and trsut me they will do that) - separate ourselves from akhoonds and their supporters, and hope the transition is as harmless as possible.

We can always turn-around in 25 years and make Americans apologise for intruding in our political affairs !!! :yohoo:

 

[Motori]

Most of your assertions are just speculations, and pretty baseless ones for that too. Of course Carter had no idea that USSR would collapse, not a single soul did in 1979. When Carter and Brzezinski supported mujahideen, they were truly freedom fighters. It was only years later, after Carter had left the White House, that as a result of infiltrating Arab fighters they became an ideological force. The claim that the US wanted to replace its most important ally in the region with an anti-American regime to confront USSR is so laughable I'm not going to even begin discussing it. Reagan Administration was really the main culprit in letting that branch of fundamentalism getting out of control with Wahabi funding.

Carter's push for human rights did not start the revolution. If anything, those changes were the only way to prevent a revolution. Alas, it was way too late for Iran.

Were you driving on Jimmy Carter Expressway in Atlanta Jawjaa while you were typing this??
What Mujaahedin are you talking about?? Carter didn't care about Mujaahedin because they were freedom fighters, he supported them because they were fighting against USSR backed COMMUNIST regime of Noor Muhammad Taraki.
So you are saying Carter decided to dismiss the most powerful and reliable US Alie in the region just for Humanitarian reasons? WOW??
No one said Carter started Iranian Revolution, I said the Administration decided to contribute to it getting materialized because of Anti-Communism environment it could produce.

BTW: It was Carter's and Zibigniew's Idea (Use Islam against communism) to recruit and enlist a not so famous guy name Osama Bin Laden. Can you read??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#History

 

[Fatso]

I actually think Carter was one of the better presidents. Hostage situation really hurt him and Reagan and pals were able to use the situation to their advantage, making under the table deals with Iran's government at the time, and also heavily supporting Saddam and his filthy buddies.
Blaming Carter for the revolution is pretty much the same as believing Reagan stopped Communism.

By the way artaville, I usually never agree with you, but in this case, you took the words out of my mouth.

 

[khodam]

Again - there is no nukilar issue - it's just an excuse - so why should I or America want to do anything about it ? As I said - it's an excuse for public consumption. A crisis pushed by America

I see you managed to confuse the hell out of yourself as well!!!

Real or imaginary, once a crisis is faced by the government, they have to react to it. Even if your assertion is right that there is no real crisis (which is so not the case!), the US government has to react to this "imaginary", "created-for-public-consumption" crisis, or they'll see the same backlash that Carter saw in the future elections. Having cleared that up, back to the old question: How would you suggest the US should deal with this "imaginary" crisis?

I really suggest you cut back on watching Daei jAn :dance3: !!!

 

[Motori]

IMO, Carter and his adminstration (including Brizhinev) were not proactive to see how things will shape up, on the contrary I think they were reacting to the events leading uo to revolution as they unfolded!

Grant it they could have done things to change the out come of events, but their national interests was better served on the sidelines or indirect influance on the out come.

I still think it was Shah's backward policies that sidelined and prevented Iranian intellectuals from getting directly involved with students and citizens. Those policies closed the door to reason and helped put Islam/akhoonds as the only viable movement with disasteros results.

p.s, thanks westi for recognizing the voice (text in this case) of reason :cheer-2:

Arti jAn,
I'm not saying US or UK or anybody else started the revolution (that would be direct insult to Iranians) and concurring with you I strongly believe Shah is (was?) the first to blame. He was so pre-occupied with his self-righteousness and contending with our northern neighbor that he got quite distant from the reality of every day lives of his own ppl. Revolution started from Mosques and then transfered to the streets.

 

[AMirza]

Or maybe - you should expand your vision a bit.
US is just following a UN process - a process dictated by the decesions and actions NOW of the UN security council. They are playing all their cards right - what changes do you see necessary ? You see - maybe you don't understand the concept of being ACTIONARY versus being REACTIONARY. There is nothing better for IRI if they whole world is REACTIONARY - just as the Iranian population has been. America has no option but to be Actionary towrds IRI - just as they were against Taliban and Saddam - as I said - they just have no choice. That is why they will never take the "Military" option off the table - and will use it gladly - to make sure Iran will never train or fund terror.

Still confused ?
It's hard to wake someone who pretends to be sleeping !!

 

[khodam]

Were you driving on Jimmy Carter Expressway in Atlanta Jawjaa while you were typing this??

Actually I'm right next to Ronald Reagan Highway in Simi Valley while typing this!

What Mujaahedin are you talking about?? Carter didn't care about Mujaahedin because they were freedom fighters, he supported them because they were fighting against USSR backed COMMUNIST regime of Noor Muhammad Taraki.

Pay more attention. I never said that Carter supported Mujahideen BECAUSE they were freedom fighters. I said that WHEN Carter supported them, they were more freedom fighters than anything else. There is a big difference.

So you are saying Carter decided to dismiss the most powerful and reliable US Alie in the region just for Humanitarian reasons? WOW??

Again, when did I say that? I said, explicitly (I don't know how you missed it!!!), that Carter's push for human rights had nothing to do with the revolution. It neither initiated it, nor helped it. If anything, it could have prevented a revolution if it was done few years earlier. And to say that he supported (or contributed to) an Islamic regime as an anti-USSR strategy is ridiculous. The revolutionary sentiments were way more anti-american (and of course anti-Shah) than anti-communist. And it wouldn't have taken a genius to anticipate that post-revolution Iran would be closer to USSR than to US.

No one said Carter started Iranian Revolution, I said the Administration decided to contribute to it getting materialized because of Anti-Communism environment it could produce.

BTW: It was Carter's and Zibigniew's Idea (Use Islam against communism) to recruit and enlist a not so famous guy name Osama Bin Laden. Can you read??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#History

Well, I can read, don't worry. But I can also think and put 2 and 2 together before I open my mouth. I never disputed that it was ZB's idea to use muslim sentiments to confront USSR (that was the only thing you had right!), nor did I say it was a good idea. But at Carter's time, the evidence was not there that it was such a terrible idea. In contrast, in Reagan's time it was obvious that the idea was dangerous and he still persued it.

I'm not here to defend Carter, but the blame he gets from Iranians are, well, unfounded, to say the least. The thing is, it's very very very very difficult to be the US president (or leader of any superpower) AND a good person at the same time. Carter has come closer than anybody else in recent history (since US became a superpower) in achieving that. And in so doing, he put his political life on the line. In my book, that merits respect.

 

[khodam]

It's hard to wake someone who pretends to be sleeping !!

Indeed!!! Nobody could wake up Daei jAn from his Napoleonesque sleep, could they?

So if I understand correctly from your lecture in response to my simple question, you approve of the course of action taken by the US administration?

Keeping my fingers crossed for a simple answer to a simple question :dance3:

 

[lordofmordor]

One has to look at the action of one man to see what he is made of. Carter has certainly done alot after his presidecy to show that he is a man of peace and into human rights. His spending much time building home for poor in America, et... is a good display. Having said that, a president does not have full power to just do as he wants. It is hard to know the motives of Carter to get rid of Shah, but certainly he is tons more peaceful than other US presidents by a mile.

The same way, one cannot completely blame 100% on shah. Yes, he was a dictator but to make him such evil is totally wrong. Shah had many CIA agents working around him. After the coup againt Mossadegh, and the Iranians military pretty much controlled by US for a while and Savak by CIA, it is questionable the amount of control he had at different stages of his rule. Can that be why he left the country when told by America? Why the military did not do enough to stop the revolution or make a coup? Very few would ever know.

We cannot blame Carter, I agree. I was just talking to an extremely intellectual open minded person the other day and I said what did you think when the revolution was happening and Khominie was about to take power. He said many of us thought that he is a muslim cleric and would use Islamic values and do good for Iran. We had no idea a muslim like him would turn into such monster.

 

[AMirza]

Lord Jaan -
don't fall prey to what happens in the surface !!
Other than Sharing a Nobel peace prize - Carter and Ebadi have somethin else in common - they are tools to screw things up or sustain the ongoing screw-ups !!!

Just recently - there was an election in Palestine won by Hamas - guess who was the RESPECTED international observer over the election ??? Yes - Jimmy !! once again he goes somewhere and hands power to the PLO !!!
To be honest with you - I have a hard time thinking 60% of the Palestinians truely want Hams to rule them towrds their future - I think there were serious cheatings right under Jimmy's nose. And it will take Jimmy another 15 years before he realizes how bad he screwed up in Palestine - if ever !!!

 

[lordofmordor]

NY Times had a great article after the Palastinian election with stats of the polling stations. Palastinian authority made a mistake of placing several people on each poll whereas Hamas had one. If you totalled the number votes, you would see that Hamas would loose and about 60% or more of the votes did go to Palastinian aruthority but got spread between several of their members.

 

[AMirza]

What is important is where the ballots are taken, who keeps the ballots,who counts it, and finaly who sums-up the counts.

For example - this was a real case of IRI chaeting - they fill ballots with favorable votes and deliver them to Vezarat Keshvar !!! totaly independant of what actualy takes place in the real vote stations !! as a result there can be 100% accuracy at the stations - but 500% cheating at where ballots are stored, counted or where votes are summed-up !!

 

[khodam]

What is important is where the ballots are taken, who keeps the ballots,who counts it, and finaly who sums-up the counts.

So I assume from your lack of response to my simple question that your answer is yes, right? Do you approve of US's course of action in dealing with Iran? Or maybe you don't like where that answer will take you in our discussion?

As for the Palestinian elections, you do realize that Carter was only ONE of hundreds of observers (that is people who observe, not those who collect or count the votes) during the elections. And a Hamas victory was predicted before the election, it was only teh extent of teh victory that was surprising. Finally, Carter center does election monitoring all around the world wherever they are permitted, it wasn't only for this election. You shouldn't really distort the facts, or you won't be that different than IRI.

 

[beystr]

The topic is Carter ..right..? Arti jon..what chew talkin' about?

How soon do we forget that Carter a year before the revolution on a visit to Iran , called "I-ran an Island of stability". and then this human rights freak would turn his back on a long time freind of USA knowing he's terminally ill, just to get a better deal in future from up and coming mullahs...what a nice guy,,,forget niceties...what do u think that decision alone did to US credibilty and partnership values in the eyes of the other so called allies?

And then when mullahs did a sodomy on him and took the US embassy..remember the incredible military rescue plan designed to trigger a regime change and a kooo deee taaaa ?
Akhoonds are ruthless to week people.... and deservedly sold his clueless ass to the lowest offer from Reagan...one more president like Carter and u could have safely called the end of USA as we knew it.

the moral conclusion to people like Carter is that ..Idiots by their nature can not be nice guys and doostie khale kherse and the peanut farmer could be hazardous to health and safety of any country they khoday nakarde want to help.

 

[Zob Ahan]

The iranian conspiracy theory lovers love to hate Carter. I have gotten tired debating those people. Baba in 1979 there WAS a revolution in iran. Carter is not to be blamed for anything. If he were prez today he would still push for democracy in Iran.

 

[beystr]

Et'tefaghan.. My point was that Carter as a politician was, is.... way too clueless, visionless and much too amature to push for any political agenda much less democracy ..and in that democracy in middle east. again just like the big ol' bear trying to kill the magas with the big rock and ending up smashing the beloved's grill. so yes the poor ol' guy wanted to sneak up behind all intelectuals!! and discovered a new democractic movement in middle east via an Islamic ideology!!! and in the process ended up killing any hopes of democracy in middle east in his life time and possibly risking an islamic revolution all over the world.

 

[AMirza]

Dear Zob Ahan -
How do you explain Hoizer Trips to Tehran and the distabilizing of the Iranian Armed Forces ?

Dear Khodam -
Don't think of these debates as a means of me beating you in a debate or vise versa - these are debates which stimulates thoughts and formulates Idealogies. Having said that - Yes USA is taking the right approach on getting the international community on their side - that is certainly the right approach for USA. But is it the best approach for you and I and the Iranian population ? My answer: So far so good. They need to keep the pressure on IRI to weaken it - hopefuly to a point the Iranian population can take care of IRI without any military intervention. One thing that is very important to know is that nothing will ever happen to IRI unless the threat of military intervention (Iron Fist) is there. Another words - IRI dog will obey orders only if they see the stick in your hands.