How good is our current crop of players (old school ISP)

Babak G

News Team, ISP Managers Team
Feb 13, 2003
8,923
0
Parts Unknown
#21
Foo, worrying thing about individual talent is that it prospers in a cyclical nature depending on elements existing in the environment. The same factors you mentioned like youth programs, moving to Europe at younger ages, becoming role models for the new generation, etc...

The talent has dried up Id argue.

Ansarifard is being bigged up in Iran right now. But how good is he really? Shojaei was the last player that had exciting prospects and he broke through in 2005.

The mentality of our young players, even those with a little potential like Oladi, Kazemian, & others (who I dont think were ever as good as anyone even thought they were) is their own downfall too.
 

Foo

Elite Member
Feb 12, 2006
11,907
5
35
Den Haag, Holland
#22
Foo, worrying thing about individual talent is that it prospers in a cyclical nature depending on elements existing in the environment. The same factors you mentioned like youth programs, moving to Europe at younger ages, becoming role models for the new generation, etc...

The talent has dried up Id argue.

Ansarifard is being bigged up in Iran right now. But how good is he really? Shojaei was the last player that had exciting prospects and he broke through in 2005.

The mentality of our young players, even those with a little potential like Oladi, Kazemian, & others (who I dont think were ever as good as anyone even thought they were) is their own downfall too.
that's exactly what I mean when I say that's no solid basis. When u coincidentally have a talented generation of players there will be a chance to perform well, but u'll go down just as hard when the next generation is less talented. It's not stable and very opportunistic. Those factors ensure that there's a continuous process of improvement and delivery of good players.
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#27
In short: midfield is still rather strong or our strongest area; defence is still iffy; and instead of a great forward and an unreliable keeper it is mostly the other way around now.

Personally, I don't think the ability/talent of the players has changed drastically. If anything the coaching methods are probably better these days. What we have less and less of is discipline and coaches who apply tactics for the team's sake rather than letting the individuals make merry.

Take Zob Ahan as an example; sure they're talented but they do not have the most talented squad in the league. Yet they play good football and fight on all fronts for titles. This is a credit to the coach who has instilled a team mentality where with solidarity at the back they have a simple passing game which let's them utilise their offensive strengths. However, Iranians working together for the greater good has been a rare phenomenon in many facets of life and this is holding us back.

For Iran, the biggest way forward is the implementation of high standards in coaching with an emphasis on teamwork. An influx of foreign coaches would speed up this development; especially at youth development stage.
 

BehzadB

Bench Warmer
Feb 18, 2006
1,485
0
Shooshtar
#28
just a side note... speaking of Japan and Korea

The Koreans and the Japanese hire guys like Ghotbi, treat them well and with respect and when they want to move on, they fire the guy (or let his contract run out) and move on to the next guy... they do it professionally..

We hire the guy, treat him like he is our savior, then treat him like he is a criminal, then blame everything on him and ...well, you know the rest..

They are where they are and we are where we are...
the difference is in the mentality... once that is fixed, everything else falls in place, sooner or later.
 

Babak G

News Team, ISP Managers Team
Feb 13, 2003
8,923
0
Parts Unknown
#29
just a side note... speaking of Japan and Korea

The Koreans and the Japanese hire guys like Ghotbi, treat them well and with respect and when they want to move on, they fire the guy (or let his contract run out) and move on to the next guy... they do it professionally..

We hire the guy, treat him like he is our savior, then treat him like he is a criminal, then blame everything on him and ...well, you know the rest..

They are where they are and we are where we are...
the difference is in the mentality... once that is fixed, everything else falls in place, sooner or later.
Excellent observation.

This is what the mainstream English MEDIA excel at. They create a scapegoat. Even though smart media personnel and fans know that problems are much deeper. Its easier to blame Sven, Capello & McLaren, instead of admitting that Gerrard, Lampard et al were never as good as you thought they were.

Kaz, you mentioned about not agreeing with the talent. I beg to differ. Or maybe its better this way. We have a better quality pool of players. Lets say 65 players now instead of 40. However, the average level of players are honest, hard-working & solid, instead of exceptional or talented. I compare this to other countries emerging in Asian football, smaller countries and I feel they have more talented players coming through their youth ranks. Other than one of our youth teams going all the way a couple of years ago, most of ours fail in the earlier rounds. That is a good indicator of raw potential. Despite the illusion that this is a young TM, it isnt. Only Austrlia's final stab at success is older than our team. Majority of the team are over 26 years of age. Put it on paper, and ask yourself who will replace them for 2014.

I look at Japan now and the kind of players they are producing and its scary. Did you know their High School tournaments are one of the most scouted leagues/tournaments anywhere?
 

2006

Ball Boy
May 20, 2006
242
0
somewhere
#30
Current main Euro-based players (South Korea and Japan)

South Korea
MF:park Ji Sung (29) - Manchester United (Premier League)
MF:Lee Chung Yong (22) - Bolton (Premier League)
FW:Son Heung Min (18) - Hamburg (Bundesliga)
MF:Nam Tae Hee (19) - Valenciennes (Ligue 1)
FW:park Chu Young (25) - Monaco (Ligue 1)
FW:Jung Jo Gook (26) - AJ Auxerre (Ligue 1)
FW:Suk Hyun Jun (19) - Ajax (Eredivisie)
DF:Cha Du Ri (30) - Celtic (SPL)
MF:Ki Sung Yong (21) - Celtic (SPL)

Japan
FW:Ryo Miyaichi (18) - Arsenal (Premier League)
MF:Yuki Abe (29) - Leicester City (Football League)
MF:Akihiro Ienaga (24) - Mallorca (La Liga)
FW:Takayuki Morimoto (22) - Catania (Serie A)
DF:Yuto Nagatomo (24) - Cesena (Serie A)
MF:Shinji Kagawa (21) - Dortmund (Bundesliga)
MF:Makoto Hasebe (26) - Wolfsburg (Bundesliga)
DF:Atsuto Uchida (22) - Schalke 04 (Bundesliga)
DF:Tomoaki Makino (23) - FC Köln (Bundesliga)
MF:Keisuke Honda (24) - CSKA Moscow (Russia)
MF: Daisuke Matsui (29) - Tom Tomsk (Russia)
MF:Michihiro Yasuda (23) - Vitesse (Eredivisie)
DF:Maya Yoshida (22) - VVV Venlo (Eredivisie)
GK:Eiji Kawashima (27) - Lierse (Belgium)
 

Babak G

News Team, ISP Managers Team
Feb 13, 2003
8,923
0
Parts Unknown
#31
I had no idea Myachi was in Japan's squad. Big things are expected of him. Already likened to Cristiano Ronaldo, he is being thought of as potentially Japan's best ever player.
 

Foo

Elite Member
Feb 12, 2006
11,907
5
35
Den Haag, Holland
#32
I had no idea Myachi was in Japan's squad. Big things are expected of him. Already likened to Cristiano Ronaldo, he is being thought of as potentially Japan's best ever player.
He isn't. Out of the 14 Japanese players in 2006's post 9 are in the AC squad, while out of the 9 Korean players 5 are in their AC squad.
 

Niloufar

Football Legend
Oct 19, 2002
29,626
23
#33
Im more worried about the emergence of UAE (STRONG YOUTH SET UP), Uzbeks, Syria, Jordan (beating us would have been unheard of only a few years ago), Qatar, North Korea, etc...
wow good to 30 u here again Babak!:) In case some new users dont know Babak, he is one of the best sport Editorialists out there. He wrote brilliant articles for ISP for years..before he got busy with his work!

Great realistic assessment Babak. :) One thing I'd criticize Ghotbi and his predecessors in post-2006 is the fact that they could build our current TM squad based on our U-19, U-23 teams. so that by now, not only they'd have played with each other for 3-4 yrs, they are more adaptable to mold them based on team tactics and strategy and there is no age issue either.

I dont understand why youth team who made us proud in World Cup Youth games, couldnt be invited to TM games from then on.

just a side note... speaking of Japan and Korea

The Koreans and the Japanese hire guys like Ghotbi, treat them well and with respect and when they want to move on, they fire the guy (or let his contract run out) and move on to the next guy... they do it professionally..

We hire the guy, treat him like he is our savior, then treat him like he is a criminal, then blame everything on him and ...well, you know the rest..

They are where they are and we are where we are...
the difference is in the mentality... once that is fixed, everything else falls in place, sooner or later.
Excellent put Behzad jan.

Its our poor mentality as well..we dont set any target for the coach, if we do, only short term idealistic goals, and boy dont we just quickly change our minds about them?
 

ghilich

Bench Warmer
Oct 12, 2004
1,867
8
usa
#34
I remember you as Babak Golriz from Irankicks and we used to debate on that site as well. I remember you were a supporter of Branco while I was one of the earliest guys on that site that started criticizing him. In short, we don't see football the same way. The same you who backed a coach who was as sterile as vanilla ice cream without the sugar (or a Yobs stubborn moron, you choose:)) and as conservative as they come, sticking to Ali Daei as a full time starter for 4 years till the age of 36 (enough said...), now criticizes Ghotbi indirectly for not having brought new players to the TM. Well, Ghotbi has brought quite a few new players to TM and the evidence is right there on the pitch. Rezaei, Gholmai, Hajsafi, Ansarifard, Nouri, Heydari et al all get substantial playing time and they were all either not getting any playing time or were seldom used under previous coaches. So, facts say other than what you mention there. As far as the age of TM goes, we had multiple players over the age of 30 under Branco, here there is only Nekounam and Nouri who are over 30. In big tournaments like AC, EVERY coach goes with the best team they got and usually that will not result in having a team of youngsters out there. But there is a far cry between having a Cholagh striker and a bunch of over 30 players, than having one or two at 30 and a team avg age of 27/28, where you get at least 4 more years of peak performance out of most of those guys.

Another angle that is neglected in your post is the motivation, togetherness, and conditioning of TM, that was SELF EVIDENT on the pitch against Iraq. TM destroyed Iraq in the 2nd half, we kicked their ASS all over the pitch, they WILTED under the relentless runs and pressure by our team. That is coaching:) Also, lets not forget the rebellion in the WC inside TM against Branco due to his biased and stubborn player selection, most specifically A. Daei....That has not happened under Ghotbi. That is again to his credit.

Another item is that Ghotbi has given playing time to an EXTENSIVE number of players in TM. To the point that some on this site were complaining about Ghotbi "not knowing his team just before AC". As a result, we can easily field a half dozen different starters without a substantial drop in the overall TM level. That is something we have hardly EVER had in our TM and I have followed it for over 40 years. In short we have a YEKDAST, PORNAFAS, JANGANDEH ***TEAM*** under Ghotbi's coaching. He is not a genius, he is not the world's best coach, but he IS the most competent coach our TM has had in a long long time.

We don't have as many big name stars on this team than other periods in the past, but *names* don't win matches, *teams* do.

P.S.

And someone who supported Branco, will have a hard timing justifying his complaints about the lack of a youth movement under any other coach.
 

Babak G

News Team, ISP Managers Team
Feb 13, 2003
8,923
0
Parts Unknown
#35
I remember you as Babak Golriz from Irankicks and we used to debate on that site as well. I remember you were a supporter of Branco while I was one of the earliest guys on that site that started criticizing him. In short, we don't see football the same way. The same you who backed a coach who was as sterile as vanilla ice cream without the sugar (or a Yobs stubborn moron, you choose:)) and as conservative as they come, sticking to Ali Daei as a full time starter for 4 years till the age of 36 (enough said...), now criticizes Ghotbi indirectly for not having brought new players to the TM. Well, Ghotbi has brought quite a few new players to TM and the evidence is right there on the pitch. Rezaei, Gholmai, Hajsafi, Ansarifard, Nouri, Heydari et al all get substantial playing time and they were all either not getting any playing time or were seldom used under previous coaches. So, facts say other than what you mention there. As far as the age of TM goes, we had multiple players over the age of 30 under Branco, here there is only Nekounam and Nouri who are over 30. In big tournaments like AC, EVERY coach goes with the best team they got and usually that will not result in having a team of youngsters out there. But there is a far cry between having a Cholagh striker and a bunch of over 30 players, than having one or two at 30 and a team avg age of 27/28, where you get at least 4 more years of peak performance out of most of those guys.

Another angle that is neglected in your post is the motivation, togetherness, and conditioning of TM, that was SELF EVIDENT on the pitch against Iraq. TM destroyed Iraq in the 2nd half, we kicked their ASS all over the pitch, they WILTED under the relentless runs and pressure by our team. That is coaching:) Also, lets not forget the rebellion in the WC inside TM against Branco due to his biased and stubborn player selection, most specifically A. Daei....That has not happened under Ghotbi. That is again to his credit.

Another item is that Ghotbi has given playing time to an EXTENSIVE number of players in TM. To the point that some on this site were complaining about Ghotbi "not knowing his team just before AC". As a result, we can easily field a half dozen different starters without a substantial drop in the overall TM level. That is something we have hardly EVER had in our TM and I have followed it for over 40 years. In short we have a YEKDAST, PORNAFAS, JANGANDEH ***TEAM*** under Ghotbi's coaching. He is not a genius, he is not the world's best coach, but he IS the most competent coach our TM has had in a long long time.

We don't have as many big name stars on this team than other periods in the past, but *names* don't win matches, *teams* do.

P.S.

And someone who supported Branco, will have a hard timing justifying his complaints about the lack of a youth movement under any other coach.
Ghilich jaan, Old habits die hard! :)

I never once criticized Ghotbi for the lack of youth development. My issue isnt Ghotbi. In fact I think he has done a good job. My issue is the lack of quality player pool in Iran as I mentioned. This isnt a job for the national team manager. Its much deeper than that.

I was a supporter of the stability that Branko brought. In fact, many hard-core critics of Branko regretted things after he left, because we saw the shambles that our team became after that. One thing the Croat brought was tactical rigidity and structure. I think only Ghotbi has come close to doing that although Ghalemoei did shore up the defence.

I dont know why you think my post was against Ghotbi cause it wasnt. However to clarify something you said. You said Ghotbi brought these youngsters in such as Hajsafi, Rezaei, Khalatbari, etc...Well actually it was Ali Daei who opened the door to these players during his stint. In fact, more or less this is Ali Daei's selection of players, with a few changes here and there (in terms of key core of players).

Ghotbi is a good coach but when you start off with many enemies who just dont like you before you begin your job, you are bound to lose.

My worry is that we are falling backwards in Asian football. In a country of 70 million its shocking to see that quality players are hard to come by. However, be it 1 million or 70 million I am starting to realize how much more important grass-roots foundations are than anyone ever thought. Otherwise India and China would be dominating world football by the law of averages.

Nilou jaan, thank you for your kind words. I dont think its fair to blame the NT manager for not "managing" the youth set-ups. That is the IFF's job, and the proper football people which we do not have in our country.
 

Niloufar

Football Legend
Oct 19, 2002
29,626
23
#36
Nilou jaan, thank you for your kind words. I dont think its fair to blame the NT manager for not "managing" the youth set-ups. That is the IFF's job, and the proper football people which we do not have in our country.
khahesh Babak, its the plain truth..

No Im not blaming NT manager for not managing the youth set-ups. The problem is deeper than that as u mentioned.

It goes back to lack of youth academy in almost all of our clubs, except Zob Ahan and Foulad(not significant enough though) and that during IPL transfer market, our club managers tend of exchange their overpriced,hyped and aging players instead of paving the path for new young players. No wonder we are now facing alarming diminishing rate of our players moving to Europe.

But at the same time, Ghotbi had 1.5 years to invite and blend our Youth team squad in Asian Cup. Risky move I know, but it'd benefit us much more in long-term. but who cares about our football improvement these days?:eek:
 
Nov 24, 2002
27,860
1,466
#38
Ghilich jaan, Old habits die hard! :)

I never once criticized Ghotbi for the lack of youth development. My issue isnt Ghotbi. In fact I think he has done a good job. My issue is the lack of quality player pool in Iran as I mentioned. This isnt a job for the national team manager. Its much deeper than that.

I was a supporter of the stability that Branko brought. In fact, many hard-core critics of Branko regretted things after he left, because we saw the shambles that our team became after that. One thing the Croat brought was tactical rigidity and structure. I think only Ghotbi has come close to doing that although Ghalemoei did shore up the defence.

I dont know why you think my post was against Ghotbi cause it wasnt. However to clarify something you said. You said Ghotbi brought these youngsters in such as Hajsafi, Rezaei, Khalatbari, etc...Well actually it was Ali Daei who opened the door to these players during his stint. In fact, more or less this is Ali Daei's selection of players, with a few changes here and there (in terms of key core of players).

Ghotbi is a good coach but when you start off with many enemies who just dont like you before you begin your job, you are bound to lose.

My worry is that we are falling backwards in Asian football. In a country of 70 million its shocking to see that quality players are hard to come by. However, be it 1 million or 70 million I am starting to realize how much more important grass-roots foundations are than anyone ever thought. Otherwise India and China would be dominating world football by the law of averages.

Nilou jaan, thank you for your kind words. I dont think its fair to blame the NT manager for not "managing" the youth set-ups. That is the IFF's job, and the proper football people which we do not have in our country.
babak jan , this is normal , we are not Brazil to not be worry for our national team and having stars year after the year.
We went through this issue before in early 90, infact 1990 WCQ , that was worse TM squad i ever saw ! it took us 6 years to have some lights at the end of tunnel and year or two more to see the result! now is almost samething!

I think as you said the federation is manily to be blame , is not normal in a country that their under 16 win the title in Asia and dominate all teams in tournement their under 19 fail in year or two and would be worse for under 23 ,etc ! I think talent is there sometime need to be developp , coach, federation , even players , all facilites etc play the main role !
 

Silverton

National Team Player
Nov 6, 2004
4,524
6
#39
Ansarifard scored two gorgeous goals today.

I think he deserves some consideration for upcoming & talented Iranian players! Hajsafy was great today as well

Kudos to Babak for great discussion ... it's nice to see discussion and dialogue about Iranian football here on IranSportsPress ;) - in the land where Real, Barca and EPL rule the day.