How we Won Yesterday!!

[masoudA]

I was thinking for another title for this thread, but I changed my mind after observing too much self defeating attitudes.....
Before I get into the positive aspects of 22 Bahman for the Green yesterday - I will say this: If you are/were thinking/hoping the regime would collapse by several million peacefully showing up in streets, then the problem is you - not the Green movement. Several million coming out can change a government, but they have to have far more than just PEACEFUL intentions, and must be ready for a full takeover.

Now - here are the positives of 22 Bahman.
1- With all the accomodations, benefits, and all the propaganda, .......IR was not able to get 50,000 supporters in Azadi Square. Can you understand the ramafications of that? Traktor Sazi-Esteghlal game gathered a bigger crowd !! a crowd that was even willing to pay, rather than get paid. Please pay more attention to this fact - because all Iranian and non-Iranian political planners and strategists certainly do.
2- On the other hand - despite all the threats, the arrests, executions,.... the armed forces visible presence in the Streets, hos many Greens showed up? I know it is hard to quantify - but as someone said: Even if a single Green had not come out - just the anticipation and the precautions IR had to take was a great win.
3- Once again the movement was countrywide. Despite interruption in communications, people from many major cities in Iran came out to show support for the Green.
4- Unconfirmed reports was 100 arrests, and 2 deaths. Although, every single death opr arrest is terrible - but overall it went pretty good - I personally took a cy of relief - many had feared for worst.
5- On the international level...... I won't even get into details, but will say this: If IR had taken sharper measures against the Green yeasterday, several of their embassies would have been run over. I felt that yesterday - and am certain IR officials will not be safe at all anywhere outside Iran if IR gets drastic with the population or prisoners. I can gauge the temratures rising - and I thank god for that. Those of us outside can do a lot to hurt IR and to protect the Green inside.

Finally - I love the new idea - the Green Traffic. Play it right, especially in the freeway systems and cities like Tehran would be disabled in minutes. It does require some planning - especially about the time. I don't now if 6 PM is the ideal time to do it...... but then again those inside know better.

Let's get back on the saddle - you pussies-
we are in it for the long haul

 

[General Parsaian]

I was thinking for another title for this thread, but I changed my mind after observing too much self defeating attitudes.....
Before I get into the positive aspects of 22 Bahman for the Green yesterday - I will say this: If you are/were thinking/hoping the regime would collapse by several million peacefully showing up in streets, then the problem is you - not the Green movement. Several million coming out can change a government, but they have to have far more than just PEACEFUL intentions, and must be ready for a full takeover.

Now - here are the positives of 22 Bahman.
1- With all the accomodations, benefits, and all the propaganda, .......IR was not able to get 50,000 supporters in Azadi Square. Can you understand the ramafications of that? Traktor Sazi-Esteghlal game gathered a bigger crowd !! a crowd that was even willing to pay, rather than get paid. Please pay more attention to this fact - because all Iranian and non-Iranian political planners and strategists certainly do.
2- On the other hand - despite all the threats, the arrests, executions,.... the armed forces visible presence in the Streets, hos many Greens showed up? I know it is hard to quantify - but as someone said: Even if a single Green had not come out - just the anticipation and the precautions IR had to take was a great win.
3- Once again the movement was countrywide. Despite interruption in communications, people from many major cities in Iran came out to show support for the Green.
4- Unconfirmed reports was 100 arrests, and 2 deaths. Although, every single death opr arrest is terrible - but overall it went pretty good - I personally took a cy of relief - many had feared for worst.
5- On the international level...... I won't even get into details, but will say this: If IR had taken sharper measures against the Green yeasterday, several of their embassies would have been run over. I felt that yesterday - and am certain IR officials will not be safe at all anywhere outside Iran if IR gets drastic with the population or prisoners. I can gauge the temratures rising - and I thank god for that. Those of us outside can do a lot to hurt IR and to protect the Green inside.

Finally - I love the new idea - the Green Traffic. Play it right, especially in the freeway systems and cities like Tehran would be disabled in minutes. It does require some planning - especially about the time. I don't now if 6 PM is the ideal time to do it...... but then again those inside know better.

Let's get back on the saddle - you pussies-
we are in it for the long haul

جناب مسعود
بگذارید من از زاویه ای محاید و بیطرف در مورد بیست و دو بهمن موضوع را بررسی کنم
رژیم توانست طرفداران خود را به میدان بیاورد
و خودتان را فریب ندهید خیلی بیش از پنجاه هزار و صد هزار و دویست هزار بودند
شاید شما ندیدید ولی من دیدم
و در طرف مقابل جنبش نتوانست طرفداران خود را به خیابانها بکشد
شما می فرمایید که البته با وجود نیروهای مسلح جنبش نمی تواند طرفداران خود را به خیابانها بکشاند !!ا
پس از قرار معلوم طرفداران جنبش در خور ان نیستند تا رژیم را عوض کنند
در انقلاب 57 هم رژیم توپ و تانک و هزاران سرباز را به خیابانها اورد
ولی ایا طرفداران خمینی ساکت ماندند ؟
خیر
حتی انوقت که رژیم حکومت نظامی اعلام کرد مردم امدند و تظاهرات کردند کشته شدند تا رژیم عوض شد
هیچوقت رژیم نمی اید دو دستی حکومت و دولت را تقدیم شما کند
این طرفداران جنبش هستند که باید بیایند و به مقابله با رژیم بپردازند
نشستن توی خانه به این بهانه که رژیم نیروهای مسلح را به خیابانها اورده دردی را دوا نمی کند
دیروز خبری از جنبش نبود
هر چه بود طرفداران رژیم بودند
و اگر اینطور که شما می فرمایید یعنی فقط پنجاه هزار نفر بودند و شما در تهران ملیونها طرفدار دارید
می توانستید از این ملیونها فقط یک ملیون را به خیابانها بکشانید
و در مقابل دویست سیصد خبرنگار خارجی نشان دهدید که مردم رژیم را نمی خواهند
خوب از چاقو چماق می ترسید ؟
پس نشان می دهد این ملیون هایی که می فرمایید به درد بوجود اوردن یک انقلاب نمی خورند
و همان بهتر که در خانه هایشان بنشینند و تماشا کنند
به نظر من دیروز جنبش شکست سختی خورد
تا روز دیگر که شاید این شکست جبران شود


متشکرم

 

[masoudA]

General - bogzarid kheyli rahat javabetan ra bedaham.
You have very little credibility as far as being able to provide any logical statements here - and when it comes to Bi-Tarafi......well please whatever you do, never take our side.
BTW - I don't know if you know what 50,000 people looks like in the streets - but google just produced a satellite photo of yesterdays crowd during AN's speech - the size of crowd is scientifically calculatable.....

BTW - I do not appreciate your participation in my threads - please try to stay away. I hate to be banned because of you, because everytime I read your posts, only bad words comes to my mind. I am always like that when I encounter extreme Veghahat.

 

[Persian-Eagle-13]

lets just say IRI brought out 4-5 million people out into streets across the county in major cities like from tehran to yazd!!!

the population of iran stands at 72-73 million this year!!! that is still 7-8% of the total population!!

YES great job by the regime after 31 years of propaganda, and buying people and shipping them to tehran and other major cities!!


yet they couldn't keep their show rolling without interpretation on their tv broadcast of only the handful of the Green movement crowd!!!

now you tell me, it is either they have more supporters than the green movement or they cant control the small number protesters from disrupting their multimillion dollar project!!!

however you look at what happen yesterday, it was disaster for IRI after 31 years!!!

 

[sarang]

جناب مسعود
بگذارید من از زاویه ای محاید و بیطرف در مورد بیست و دو بهمن موضوع را بررسی کنم
رژیم توانست طرفداران خود را به میدان بیاورد
و خودتان را فریب ندهید خیلی بیش از پنجاه هزار و صد هزار و دویست هزار بودند
شاید شما ندیدید ولی من دیدم
و در طرف مقابل جنبش نتوانست طرفداران خود را به خیابانها بکشد
شما می فرمایید که البته با وجود نیروهای مسلح جنبش نمی تواند طرفداران خود را به خیابانها بکشاند !!ا
پس از قرار معلوم طرفداران جنبش در خور ان نیستند تا رژیم را عوض کنند
در انقلاب 57 هم رژیم توپ و تانک و هزاران سرباز را به خیابانها اورد
ولی ایا طرفداران خمینی ساکت ماندند ؟
خیر
حتی انوقت که رژیم حکومت نظامی اعلام کرد مردم امدند و تظاهرات کردند کشته شدند تا رژیم عوض شد
هیچوقت رژیم نمی اید دو دستی حکومت و دولت را تقدیم شما کند
این طرفداران جنبش هستند که باید بیایند و به مقابله با رژیم بپردازند
نشستن توی خانه به این بهانه که رژیم نیروهای مسلح را به خیابانها اورده دردی را دوا نمی کند
دیروز خبری از جنبش نبود
هر چه بود طرفداران رژیم بودند
و اگر اینطور که شما می فرمایید یعنی فقط پنجاه هزار نفر بودند و شما در تهران ملیونها طرفدار دارید
می توانستید از این ملیونها فقط یک ملیون را به خیابانها بکشانید
و در مقابل دویست سیصد خبرنگار خارجی نشان دهدید که مردم رژیم را نمی خواهند
خوب از چاقو چماق می ترسید ؟
پس نشان می دهد این ملیون هایی که می فرمایید به درد بوجود اوردن یک انقلاب نمی خورند
و همان بهتر که در خانه هایشان بنشینند و تماشا کنند
به نظر من دیروز جنبش شکست سختی خورد
تا روز دیگر که شاید این شکست جبران شود


متشکرم

mate i still tryin figure out how many faces u got ... i swear coupple years back u were tryin to change the regime all by ur self or ur budy general to faghat messengere gooshgoobesh boodi ... and now u backin regime ... i think u got something against iranians in general if not then u got some sirous issue ....

 

[Natural]

mate i still tryin figure out how many faces u got ... i swear coupple years back u were tryin to change the regime all by ur self or ur budy general to faghat messengere gooshgoobesh boodi ... and now u backin regime ... i think u got something against iranians in general if not then u got some sirous issue ....

I would say its both... Severe hatred for Iranians and severe split personality disorder mixed with illusion and schizophrenia

 

[General Parsaian]

General - bogzarid kheyli rahat javabetan ra bedaham.
You have very little credibility as far as being able to provide any logical statements here - and when it comes to Bi-Tarafi......well please whatever you do, never take our side.
BTW - I don't know if you know what 50,000 people looks like in the streets - but google just produced a satellite photo of yesterdays crowd during AN's speech - the size of crowd is scientifically calculatable.....

BTW - I do not appreciate your participation in my threads - please try to stay away. I hate to be banned because of you, because everytime I read your posts, only bad words comes to my mind. I am always like that when I encounter extreme Veghahat.

جناب
اگر این ترید را برای دلخوشی خودتان زدید پس من ساکت می مانم
ولی اگر واقعا می خواهید تحلیلی از دیروز کنید باید بگویم اشتباه می کنید
شما خودتان بعد از انتخابات وقتی میدان ازادی را پر کردید امدید و گفتید حداقل نیم ملیون نفر بوده اند
الان می فرمایید پنجاه هزار بیش نبوده اند
مگر میدان ازادی فرق کرده
یا شاید ادمها غول پیکر شده اند !!!ا
بروید ترید مربوط به تظاهرات سبزها را در همین سایت وقتی که در میدان ازادی تجمع کردید ببینید
که با همین گوگل و همین کالکولیت گفته اید حداقل نیم ملیون
جانم شما خودتان را فریب می دهید
عکس ها و فیلمها که وجود است رجوع کنید و ببینید اگر پنجا هزار بوده اند بیایید گردن مااز مو باریک تر
اگر می خواهید یک تحلیل سازنده انجام دهید اول باید با خودتان رو راست باشید و خودتان را فریب ندهیید
والا سر را توی برف کردن مشکلی را حل نمی کند


بله جانم

 

[keyvan_pars]

Bahram joon,

bi taraf too een masael yani bi mani.
bi taraf too tajavoz be zan o bacheye mardom yani KHODE MOTOJAVEZ.

behet bar nakhoreh haa vali bi taraf my ass.

agar bi tarafi chizi nagi behtareh doost e aziz.

 

[Chief]

Hmmmm!!! If this is how winning for the green gang looks like then I'd hate to see their losing, it will be ugly :boxing:

 

[ball_hugger]

we didnt win anything but we didnt lose much either... what we now know is what it will take to do the job! although it seems we might lose momentum!!

what we saw yesterday was ALL the regime could muster to the capital in an all out effort to quash the protesters, we should have done the same instead of trying to spread the protest all across Iran!! the greens should have also tried to hitch rides from all across the country to come to the capital and match their forces... this way we got some points in other cities but nobody pays attention to them anyways.. if we had been able to totally over run azadi and take control of tehran we would have pretty much done all the hard work it needed to be done!!

 

[masoudA]

BH jaan -
Let me put this another way -
Did the Green prove to still be alive yesterday? That means Green is now over 8 months old. That means IR has not been able to stabilize the country for 8 months. Stabilizing Iran is the biggest IR task as far as the international cartels and IR bosses are concerned. IR made a desperate attempt to show stabilization and popular support yesterday - and they lost even before the day started. They lost because of all the ridiculous decisions they made........decisions such as keeping reporters barricaded, cutting off telecom, installing loudspeakers,............ and then during the day - with every tear gas, arrests, beating up....they illustrated unstability.

 

[DireStraits]

Here is my view.
The regime proved they are still in control but people proved they have not withdrawn.
They sill are determind to overthrow the basterds. They are still not expierinced and organized.
I recommend you all read this article family_Zirak posted in another thread

گزارش پیک نت از میان جمعیت میدان آزادی
سبزها چند برابر بودند
اما شعارشان "سکوت" بود!
سپاه و اوباشی که مداحان با قمه به خیابان آورده بودند، برای تکرار یک 30 خرداد سال 1360 خود را آماده کرده بودند. موسوی بسیار عاقلانه عمل کرد که راهپیمائی را جداگانه برگزار نکرد، زیرا می خواستند به بهانه و تشابه 30 خرداد 60 حمام خون راه بیاندازند. احمدی نژاد که بسیار زیرکانه، درباره وقایع بعد از انتخابات سکوت کرده تا همه هزینه سرکوب و جنایات را علی خامنه ای پرداخت کند، روی این حمام خون پافشاری کرده بود. از روز روشن تر است که او و شبکه مافیائی و حتی شاید وابسته به خارج که در پشت سر او قرار دارد، این هزینه را آگاهانه متوجه علی خامنه ای کرده است. آنها با این هدف گیری، دو نشانه را می زنند. اولا علی خامنه ای را بین مردم و حکومتیان 30 سال گذشته و روحانیون مراجع سکه یک پول کرده اند و دوم اینکه آماده می شوند تا پس از پایان ماموریت علی خامنه ای، او را هم کله پا کنند!
هم هاشمی و هم اردبیلی همین مسئله را به او گفته اند، اما معلوم نیست عقلش را بدست چه کسی داده است.
امروز اکثریت مردم سبز، به احترام کلام موسوی، با آنکه میدانستند چه فضای سپاهی و امنیتی بر تهران حاکم است، با حفظ آرامش آمده بودند، اما حکومتی ها ناجوانمردانه با آنها رفتار کردند. این رفتار باعث شد که از این پس دیگر مردم به هیچ وجه روی حفظ روحیه برادری و این نوع وعده ها حساب نکنند و آماده به خیابان بیآیند.
امروز، موقعیت چنان بود که اگر کسی کمترین تظاهری به سبز بودن می کرد فوراً در محاصره لباس شخصی ها و گاردی ها قرار می گرفت و دستگیر می شد و اگر خیلی رحم می کردند بشدت کتک می زدند و رهایش می کردند. عکس و فیلم گرفتن بسیار دشوار بود، اما مردم بازهم خطر را به جان خریدید و گرفتند.
چه وحشتی از مردم دارند این ها! باید باشید و ببینید. دقیقاً با آرایش نظامی جنگی – جنگ شهری- در تمام مسیر حضور داشتند.
آیا باز موسوی از مردم خواهد خواست که در راه پیمائی های مشترک با نیروهای حکومت مثل 22 بهمن امسال با سکوت شرکت کنند؟ تصور نمی کنم. امروز حجت بر همه تمام شد که حکومت قصد جان مردم معترض را دارد.
امروز شناختن سبز ها خیلی آسان بود. هرکس شعار بلندگوها را تکرار نمی کرد و پارچه نویس های دولتی در دستش نبود سبز بود و کسانی که داخل جمعیت بودند، مثل خود من دیدند که شمار این افراد بسیار زیاد بود. یعنی کسانی که هم شعارهای دولتی را تکرار نمی کردند و هم پارچه نویس های دولتی را در دست نداشتند.
سراسر خیابان های منتهی به میدان آزادی سبز بودند، آنچنان که تلویزیون دولتی حتی جرات نشان دادن یک لحظه تصویر از نزدیک را نداشت. حتی در میدان آزادی فقط و فقط همان چند هزارتای جلوی جایگاه را که همه نظامی و بسیجی بودند را نشان می داد.

 

[General Parsaian]

Bahram joon,

bi taraf too een masael yani bi mani.
bi taraf too tajavoz be zan o bacheye mardom yani KHODE MOTOJAVEZ.

behet bar nakhoreh haa vali bi taraf my ass.

agar bi tarafi chizi nagi behtareh doost e aziz.

کیوان جان
وقتی من می گویم به عنوان یک بیطرف تحلیل می کنم
منظور ان نیست که در مورد تجاوزات و کشتار و زندان های رژیم و فساد رژیم بیطرف هستم
من می خواهم یک تحلیل بدون تعصب داشته باشم
اگر از زبان جنبش سخنت بگویم انوقت مثل مسعود می ایم و می گویم کسی نیامده بود
اگر بخواهم از زبان رژیم سخن بگویم
انوقت می گویم طرفدارن جنبش عده محدودی هستند
من باور دارم ملیونها نفر طرفدار جنبش هستند
ولی یا از ترس جانشان یا اینکه منتظر دیگران هستند تا کشته و دستگیر شوند و رژیم عوض شود و انوقت بیایند توی خیابانها و شادی کنند و بر قبر شهدا برقصند
من باور دارم اگر فردا رژیم عوض شود ملیونها بلکه دها ملیون می ایند و توی خیابانها جشن می گیرند و هلهله می کنند
ولی همین دها ملیون حاضر نیستند بیایند و در دسری برایشان ایجاد شود
من این را می گویم که اگر بخواهید رژیم را تغییر دهید باید از جان مایه بگذارید
والا بشینید توی خانه و منتظر شوید بقیه بروند وکار را تمام کنند انوقت از لس انجلس و پاریس و لندن و شمال شهر بلند شوید و جشن بگیرید ممکن نیست


متشکرم

 

[ashtar]

we didnt win anything but we didnt lose much either... what we now know is what it will take to do the job! although it seems we might lose momentum!!

what we saw yesterday was ALL the regime could muster to the capital in an all out effort to quash the protesters, we should have done the same instead of trying to spread the protest all across Iran!! the greens should have also tried to hitch rides from all across the country to come to the capital and match their forces... this way we got some points in other cities but nobody pays attention to them anyways.. if we had been able to totally over run azadi and take control of tehran we would have pretty much done all the hard work it needed to be done!!

I thought more than 60% of the 15 million in Tehran support the "green". why would you need to hitch hikers from other towns come to your support. If anything the "green" from Tehran should be hitching rides to other towns to help them out!!

 

[ashtar]

BH jaan -
Let me put this another way -
Did the Green prove to still be alive yesterday? That means Green is now over 8 months old. That means IR has not been able to stabilize the country for 8 months. Stabilizing Iran is the biggest IR task as far as the international cartels and IR bosses are concerned. IR made a desperate attempt to show stabilization and popular support yesterday - and they lost even before the day started. They lost because of all the ridiculous decisions they made........decisions such as keeping reporters barricaded, cutting off telecom, installing loudspeakers,............ and then during the day - with every tear gas, arrests, beating up....they illustrated unstability.

If duration of a movement is any indication of success then MKO and "Shahanshahi" movements have been around for more than 31 years now!

And how would destabilizing the central government benefit the average Iranians or the long term interests of the country? You think foreign firms refusing to invest in Iran somehow benefits the Iran and Iranians? You think dragging on this uncertainty is a good thing? If you got the support and the power why not end this thing once and for all and let ordinary people get on with their lives?

 

[reza+]

ashtar ... let me turn the question over to you.... it's a well known fact that a significant number (not majority, but still significant enough) of people in iran want change... should the gov just ignore their demands? is the gov for a specific group of people? my point is... these problems will come back again and again unless people feel they are being reasonably accommodated by their gov...we'll see the same problems in another 5, 10 years... make no mistake

and what is ahmadinejad's record in govenment after five years? what are his achievements wrt his election promises?

 

[masoudA]

If duration of a movement is any indication of success then MKO and "Shahanshahi" movements have been around for more than 31 years now!

You forgot the General Parsaian Hezb Mehr Movement.......
In case you have not noticed - there is a national uprising of all Iranians against your favorite Islamists.

And how would destabilizing the central government benefit the average Iranians or the long term interests of the country? You think foreign firms refusing to invest in Iran somehow benefits the Iran and Iranians? You think dragging on this uncertainty is a good thing? If you got the support and the power why not end this thing once and for all and let ordinary people get on with their lives?

Ashtar - If you only knew just how un-independent (Vabasteh) your favorite government is - you would not be supporting it - but then again........
It is so important for IR bosses to have a stable environment while they pay $5/barrel for Iran's oil. By stable I mean a supressed population that is kept quiet when all the robbery takes place. By stable I mean a Parliment that will not follow through when some of it's members openly question what has happened to billions of Iran's oil income!! The income that of-course never existed. Simply put - out of the $100/barrel oil sell - mullahs only got $5, and out of that Iran got maybe $1. So keep sending Mooshaks to orbit. How is the turtle doing BTW?

 

[payan]

the bottom line is regime has been spending the nation's wealth and bringing people out .they use our own money against us .the sad part is how low and cheap some people can get .i hate to call them my hammeehan. and some people talking the numbers were high, here,there .

 

[ashtar]

ashtar ... let me turn the question over to you.... it's a well known fact that a significant number (not majority, but still significant enough) of people in iran want change... should the gov just ignore their demands? is the gov for a specific group of people? my point is... these problems will come back again and again unless people feel they are being reasonably accommodated by their gov...we'll see the same problems in another 5, 10 years... make no mistake

and what is ahmadinejad's record in govenment after five years? what are his achievements wrt his election promises?

I do not disagree with your points. The majority of people in almost all countries in the world are one way or another dissatisfied with their governments and want some sort of change. And most people (Iranian or other) are willing to pursue this change at most by participating in an election and criticizing their government in personal gatherings and parties (when the topic of politics arises). Most people (Iranian or other) are not willing to even spend a dollar of their money, much less jeopardize their lives to bring about this kind of change.

On the other hand, politicians whose livelihood depends on being in power are by nature always dissatisfied with any government that does not give them the power base and authority that they like. A simple example is Hillary Clinton who was ready to split and bring down the Democratic Party in last election unless Obama was willing to offer her some sort of a position in his new cabinet. To this end the politicians will try to use people’s general dissatisfaction and play as many emotionally charged people as possible to get themselves to power.

Another group that is almost equally as determined as the politicians are the “big” business. To the end that a big business sees its interests are at risks from any administration or government it too will try to protect its assets by paying off disgruntled politicians who will in turn gather general public against the standing government.

But now the question is how does one go about bringing about this “change” which you mentioned. You ask about “Ahmadinejad’s record” and I will tell you that even if he (and his political party/group) have not achieved anything they’ve done at least one thing right and that is they’ve pursued the changes they wished for legally and more importantly peacefully.

You talk about change, do you not think that Ahmadinejad (and by “Ahmadinejad” I mean those who support his views including Khamenei) also wanted change in Iran, the regime and the government?

For almost 25 years Khamenei (and those who believe in his political and more importantly economic views) had been pursuing change in the IR establishment/regime. For 8 years Khamenei followed the rule of law and put up with Mousavi as his vice-president (even though he didn’t agree with him). Then for 16 years he accepted the rule of law and people’s choice of president by putting up with the economic policies of Rafsanjani and Khatami (even though he didn’t agree with them). Then came along Ahmadinejad and he fairly and squarely beat Rafsanjani 2 elections ago. He wisely spent his first 4 years in office going around Iran and “campaigning for his reelection” directly to the poor and the ignored population of cities, towns, and villages (other than Tehran) and spreading the oil wealth the population instead of paying off certain reporters and certain classes of people in Tehran (as was the norm of most other politicians before him) to do his re-election bidding for him.

Khamenei/Ahmadinejad’s group have their own visions and what they think is best for the country while Rafsanjani and his gang (including Karoubi, Mousavi, and others) have their own vision. The difference is that unlike Khamenei’s group who were willing to be patient and play with and within the rules of the system to get what they want the other sides are not willing to the same and want to either get to power or hold on to their lost power by any means necessary including demonstrations, another revolution or even a civil war and causing the partition of the country.

 

[keyvan_pars]

morde goozid.