Thats fair, but I have a question to you.Shoma ha ke enghadar shah ro bad miduni va in regime o be jash ovordin...What do you have to say tomy generation ke be gha dadin ba in karetoon...Can you answer that? Instead of just answering the bashing part of my thread how about my generation ke as bain harooz dare mire to Iran and dont forget the generation thats coming unam dare to Iran as bain mire because of your guys(people who thought that the Shah was evil) actions we have to pay for it!!!So thats two generations ke be gha dade shodan(sorry for the language but am extremely pissed off when ever I think what I could of been in my own country if it wasn't for a few people ke khoshi zade boode zire deleshon.)Do you thing that's fair?So my friend with all do respect I don't think of it as a Joke and am sure no one in my generation finds it amusing the things we have and will be going through.
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Baba joon, iam only 29 years old. Chera shomaha enghadr koorkoorane be hame masael negah mikonin? Dar zemn man shaho bad nemidunam. But the guy was a dictator, a despot unless there is a different definition for those words. If you do not want the history to repeat and another generation be fck bere, we have to have a perspective on the history free of emotions. We have to learn from past mistakes.
It seems to me that here as soon as you attack shah, you get a whole bunch of people trying to attack you.
Just by questioning him, you get people calling you "desperate", "blind acorn" and "encloset melli mazhabi"
These are some of the people who have "eddaye democracy-khahi". Everyone else is khaen except their own shah. What a joke.
Just by questioning him, you get people calling you "desperate", "blind acorn" and "encloset melli mazhabi"
These are some of the people who have "eddaye democracy-khahi". Everyone else is khaen except their own shah. What a joke.
The Islamic groups for centuries have been responsible for where Iran is today. At every possiblity for democracy, the SOB akhoonds and their sheep supporters have stepped it and destroyed so they can control.
Back during Mossadegh, they back stabbed him, thinking they will have more power under Shah which they did. During 1979, they stole the revolution and it happend so fast like a storm, whatever the reason (we can debate forever what the reason was), and succeeded. There is a reason why you dont see one true democracy in any of the Islamic countries.
We need to keep that in mind when judging Shah.
Saudi Arabia, land of Muhamad, himself, is a great example. It is one of the most backward and worst dictatorships in the world.
Back during Mossadegh, they back stabbed him, thinking they will have more power under Shah which they did. During 1979, they stole the revolution and it happend so fast like a storm, whatever the reason (we can debate forever what the reason was), and succeeded. There is a reason why you dont see one true democracy in any of the Islamic countries.
We need to keep that in mind when judging Shah.
Saudi Arabia, land of Muhamad, himself, is a great example. It is one of the most backward and worst dictatorships in the world.
Sorry lord jan, but these are a few unproven statements. Again, I have done research regarding democratization for my dissertation. There are always arguments and counter-arguments in such matters. But even if we look at many other arguments, you hardly find any scientific evidence for what you are saying unless your source is someone like Esmael Nooriala, who in his articles resorts to accusing and distorting without giving evidence (we have many scholars like this and unfortunately i have to say we have roshanfekrs like this) . Democratization could have till some degree with religion, but religion is not all. If you are talking about liberation and emancipation that is something else.
As for Iran, beside, clergy there have been many other factors preventing us from becoming a democracy. Remember we have lived for 2500 years with dictatorship and not 1400 years. This is when Greece was a democracy in some ways. Centralization and totalitarianism is part of an Iranian persons mind. We see this in the very same thread. Trying to look for heroes is another issue. But all and all these are cultural issues that we are facing.However, there were more important issues blocking our path to democracy in the past century. Centralized oil economy, Lack of educated middle class during and immediately after revolution, lack of strong civil society, lack of rationalization by the people (which is due to lack of education) etc.
As for Iran, beside, clergy there have been many other factors preventing us from becoming a democracy. Remember we have lived for 2500 years with dictatorship and not 1400 years. This is when Greece was a democracy in some ways. Centralization and totalitarianism is part of an Iranian persons mind. We see this in the very same thread. Trying to look for heroes is another issue. But all and all these are cultural issues that we are facing.However, there were more important issues blocking our path to democracy in the past century. Centralized oil economy, Lack of educated middle class during and immediately after revolution, lack of strong civil society, lack of rationalization by the people (which is due to lack of education) etc.
I, for one, do not think that people who take your positions are khaen or anything close to that. That's a terrible word to use for someone who has the intention of doing something "good" albeiit misinformed and misplaced. I also do not think shah's era was the best that could be, or that shah was an angle by any means, far from it. But, I do believe that his era was much better than the current time, or anything that those melli-mazahabi supporters of the revolution wanted to bring.
My obeservation is that, you being 29 years old, I cannot believe that you have come to this belief about Mosaddegh and his followers based on just reading books. I am 100% sure that you have had someone in your life with great influence on you that supported Mosaddegh, etc. and you have become biased. You seem to be as biased as some shah supporters when it comes to Mosaddegh, his supporters and followers.
My obeservation is that, you being 29 years old, I cannot believe that you have come to this belief about Mosaddegh and his followers based on just reading books. I am 100% sure that you have had someone in your life with great influence on you that supported Mosaddegh, etc. and you have become biased. You seem to be as biased as some shah supporters when it comes to Mosaddegh, his supporters and followers.
I like to hear more about your thesis and what you have found. As you know I am a big fan of Mossadegh and what he tried to do for Iran, as well as the great man in your avatar.
However, I also do believe Shah came to be much better later on. One can appreciate that he never did mass killing like the SOB khominie and his supporters. And when the time came, he left rather go on killings. It did not take for him to hear the people (as in his great speech he said, my dear people, I too heard your voice. And then he went on quickly give democracy, disbaning Savak, etc. Compare that to other dictatoship in the region. Not one left as quickly as Shah. And hd did nto have to. He could have done what Islamic republic did, and go on killing, fear (through rape and mass torture), etc...
However, I also do believe Shah came to be much better later on. One can appreciate that he never did mass killing like the SOB khominie and his supporters. And when the time came, he left rather go on killings. It did not take for him to hear the people (as in his great speech he said, my dear people, I too heard your voice. And then he went on quickly give democracy, disbaning Savak, etc. Compare that to other dictatoship in the region. Not one left as quickly as Shah. And hd did nto have to. He could have done what Islamic republic did, and go on killing, fear (through rape and mass torture), etc...
It is highly unlikely, in fact over 90% certain that this would not be the case. If you were familiar enough with Mossadegh then you would agree. Mossadegh was a first rate astute politician. He never subverted to Kashani, a good reason why Kashani and the rest of Mullahs turned against him and disliked him so much.
Mossadegh was an excellent politician though many of his policies were quite wrong.
Mossadegh was an excellent politician though many of his policies were quite wrong.
His socialist policies. Rent control, land reform, social security, and so on. Later the Shah followed and expanded the same social policies. And that is what tore the fabric of Iranian society and brought us the 1979 revolution. There is evidence that Mossadegh did part of this to counter the great influence of the Toudeh party but nevertheless he followed the footsteps of the dominant portion of Iranian roshanfekr class, past and present, and that is to at best emulate Europe's socialist ways, thinking this must be nirvana. It could not be further from the truth, the reality. It is what has proven to bring Europe to its knees. It is what nearly bankrupted the once great United Kingdom. And Iran is most certainly not Europe. European societies are extremely uniform compared to Iran so that the tyranny of socialism is more moderate in Europe than it would be in Iran.
Consider for example land reform. Iran had a well established arbab rayat system. This is not ideal, nevertheless Iran had a great surplus of farming. Mossadegh first in a limited way and the Shah next in a total way aboloshed Arbab ra'yat. What was the result? A decimated farming sector with greatly, greatly reduced production AND the 1979 Revolution. This is how it worked. When the Arbab lands were divided and given to the peasant farmers, the newly independent land owners prove to have zero interest in owning the land and growing production. Instead the great majority sold the land, had chelokabob and moved to the cities with the money. Once the money ran out they only developed greater and greater oghde and disdain for the Shah and Iran's educated middle class. Nearly all of the obash among the revolutionaries and now the obash in charge are these type of people or the sons and daughter of these type of people.
There is a much better way.
Consider for example land reform. Iran had a well established arbab rayat system. This is not ideal, nevertheless Iran had a great surplus of farming. Mossadegh first in a limited way and the Shah next in a total way aboloshed Arbab ra'yat. What was the result? A decimated farming sector with greatly, greatly reduced production AND the 1979 Revolution. This is how it worked. When the Arbab lands were divided and given to the peasant farmers, the newly independent land owners prove to have zero interest in owning the land and growing production. Instead the great majority sold the land, had chelokabob and moved to the cities with the money. Once the money ran out they only developed greater and greater oghde and disdain for the Shah and Iran's educated middle class. Nearly all of the obash among the revolutionaries and now the obash in charge are these type of people or the sons and daughter of these type of people.
There is a much better way.
Mossadegh had many followers, younger people who tried to follow in his footsteps. This included Sanjabi, Bazargan, and Bakhtiar. None of these could hold a candle to Mossadegh in terms of understanding and playing politics. Mossadegh was simply a genius politicians. From his famous fake faintings when things were not going his way to reframe the discussion to his masterful political ploys on international level he just is in a class of his own. We Iranians have not yet produced a comparable figure.
What is unfortunate is that the current crop is even more inferior to those at the time of the revolution.
What is unfortunate is that the current crop is even more inferior to those at the time of the revolution.
Dear Fole, Dont you think you are mixing issues? I mean I know your views on socialism. But dont you think that in order for Iran to have strong democratic state we Mosaddegh and shah should have implemented those policies to generate a strong educated middle class, who are living in the urban areas mostly? If they did not attempt to that how could we have strong modern state, let alone a democratic one in a long term?
The issue is modernization not socialism.
I think you are right till some degree. But what brought revolution was a combination of few things. However, when it comes to land reforms which is definitely a factor, the issue is that it brought many traditional classes on the fringe of the cities. This led to forming of strong bond between them and traditional merchant classes (bazaris) and clergy. This also led to someone like Khomeini being able to gather so much support despite talking like an uneducated . Shah modernized the country too fast IMO. At the same time, he closed all holes trough which certain classes could voice their anger.
You are right about obash in the rev being the related to those people. Not all revolutionaries but the OBASH certainly were. This was a factor in khomeini being able to crush the opposition without much people caring. He could have done that since he had much support.
What funny is I think that the sons and daughters of the same people will be the biggest threat for the current regime.
The issue is modernization not socialism.
I think you are right till some degree. But what brought revolution was a combination of few things. However, when it comes to land reforms which is definitely a factor, the issue is that it brought many traditional classes on the fringe of the cities. This led to forming of strong bond between them and traditional merchant classes (bazaris) and clergy. This also led to someone like Khomeini being able to gather so much support despite talking like an uneducated . Shah modernized the country too fast IMO. At the same time, he closed all holes trough which certain classes could voice their anger.
You are right about obash in the rev being the related to those people. Not all revolutionaries but the OBASH certainly were. This was a factor in khomeini being able to crush the opposition without much people caring. He could have done that since he had much support.
What funny is I think that the sons and daughters of the same people will be the biggest threat for the current regime.
One of the best interviews by the khodabiamorz homayoun regarding shah's softness that caused his downfall. Uptill 1977 shah was still very popular, but in the second part of 1978 all of a sudden khomenie cameout of nowhere. he had ton of money, propaganda against the shah went into full overdrive and all hell broke loose.How can one uneducated cleric do all of this?Een with the bazaries help it was still to much to accomplish.
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Well you seemed very sure he was a dictotar like you lived through it, since were about the same age my friend. what i find a joke is the fact you weren't even around when the Shah was around but your absolutely certain that he was soooooo evil because you were told he was a dictator and an evil evil man because he protect his regime or you read a few books that were written by people who are and will always be against the guy, well the same people that set u up with that mind set are to be blamed for what Our generation has today.I know a lot of Iranians that went out against the Shah and now are like che ghalati kardim che ghohe khordim.What I find a joke is everyone with your mindset still take enjoyment of blaming the Shah for everything the IR are doing still, As I mentioned before he has been dead for 30+ plus years try to find a another person to blame man, How come you don't bash Khomeini or his policies? Atleast with Khomeini you've lived it and not gone with reading what others want you to believe about him.