intersting

Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#61
Feynoord is right about Shah being a dictator. Yes, we all say Shah was million times better than garbage khominie and all his SOB supporters. We all wish he was still in power rather then the murderous muslim regime. However, lets put in perspective. The downfall of Shah happend due to very few things going the wrong way. 1) If shah had just given freedom a liitle earlier, or 2) did not leave the country and let bakhtiar run the show 3) if Bakhtiar government could last few more months (could have happend if shah stayed), etc.. However, if it had gone right, Iran could have been a democracy (with very likely Shah as a king overseeing, while elected gov running the country), and we will be looking at a country emerging along with BRICS countries.

So, the path traveled was a tiny way off, but the end result went total Shit that Khominie and all his supporters were and are.

Well you seemed very sure he was a dictotar like you lived through it, since were about the same age my friend. what i find a joke is the fact you weren't even around when the Shah was around but your absolutely certain that he was soooooo evil because you were told he was a dictator and an evil evil man because he protect his regime or you read a few books that were written by people who are and will always be against the guy, well the same people that set u up with that mind set are to be blamed for what Our generation has today.I know a lot of Iranians that went out against the Shah and now are like che ghalati kardim che ghohe khordim.What I find a joke is everyone with your mindset still take enjoyment of blaming the Shah for everything the IR are doing still, As I mentioned before he has been dead for 30+ plus years try to find a another person to blame man, How come you don't bash Khomeini or his policies? Atleast with Khomeini you've lived it and not gone with reading what others want you to believe about him.
 
May 12, 2007
8,093
11
#62
Bakhtyar came too late. Watch it carefully. I bet Shah knew he would notever come back to Iran. He used Bakhtiar to kill the time.
[video=youtube;RjrHr3Q-BaQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrHr3Q-BaQ[/video]
 
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Jun 7, 2004
3,196
0
#63
Dear Fole, Dont you think you are mixing issues? I mean I know your views on socialism. But dont you think that in order for Iran to have strong democratic state we Mosaddegh and shah should have implemented those policies to generate a strong educated middle class, who are living in the urban areas mostly? If they did not attempt to that how could we have strong modern state, let alone a democratic one in a long term?

The issue is modernization not socialism.
I think you are right till some degree. But what brought revolution was a combination of few things. However, when it comes to land reforms which is definitely a factor, the issue is that it brought many traditional classes on the fringe of the cities. This led to forming of strong bond between them and traditional merchant classes (bazaris) and clergy. This also led to someone like Khomeini being able to gather so much support despite talking like an uneducated . Shah modernized the country too fast IMO. At the same time, he closed all holes trough which certain classes could voice their anger.

You are right about obash in the rev being the related to those people. Not all revolutionaries but the OBASH certainly were. This was a factor in khomeini being able to crush the opposition without much people caring. He could have done that since he had much support.

What funny is I think that the sons and daughters of the same people will be the biggest threat for the current regime.
The issue is precisely socialism.

The deal with socialism is this. It is for closet tyrants who wish to be a hero with other peoples money, taking other people's freedom to quickly fix what they think is unfair. It is short-term at the expense of the long-term. It is short-term at the expense of long-term. It is short-term at the expense of the long-term. This is not a typo. This is to emphasize the truth that escapes most AND we have witnessed it play out in case of Iran like it always will do in every society, past, present and future. A socialist will without an exception cause more harm in the long run than any good he achieves in the short-run. Mossadegh was a socialist. And he did prove to be a closet tyrant, by the way. Did he or did he not ask for emergency powers to subvert the constitution to do as he saw fit for six months? If he succeeded do you think that he would stop at six months. I don't think so. Did he or did he not illegally stop voting to ensure that he kept the majority in the parliament? He knew and believed that Iranians are just not ready to govern themselves and need a little help. And in what way is that different than the Shah? In fact those were Shah's exact words. How can you be so critical of the Shah and overlook Mossadegh's faults? I am not discrediting the service that Mossadegh provided to Iran and Iranians just like I would not do the same with Shah's. I am pointing out that he had faults and made mistakes.

Lets take land reform. A plan imposed instantly by the central government to restore what is fair under the guise of say modernism or whatever is faulty. It is short-term at the expense of the long-term. The short-term gain that Mossadegh was after and the Shah was after was to become a hero. Instead the question to ask is this, have these people, the arbab and ra'yats entered into a contract with each other on their own or not? They had. Even if it is unfair the right thing to do is to try to make fair in the next round of bargaining, not to rip out all existing contracts. Then slowly as the ra'yats, each at a different speed, become ready they will get a chance to choose a different route. For example, the government could have developed other farm land and offered it as competition to the arbab's contract so if a particular ra'yat did not wish to stay with the arbab could have taken up the land. And the land should not just be given to ra'yats. They would earn it after certain number of years. This takes time to restore fairness but it would not cause the social dislocations we witnessed.
 
Jun 7, 2004
3,196
0
#64
On your point about democracy and a strong middle class. I think you are making too many assumptions. These reforms did not result in the outcome you prescribe. And you agree with that. And that is my point: "bad policy." You cannot impose a strong middle class by taking from the rich (arbab) and giving to the poor (ra'yat.) Instead we got mostly obash. The poor are not innocent good-hearted people that only if they got freebies would flourish. They are mostly greedy bad people that if given freebies will become "haar," just like the rich would do the same. The only difference between the approach of the government as the patriarch is that in case of the poor the freebies come directly in the form of money, land etc, and in case of the rich it comes in form of unfair law that allow them to make usury profits.
 

joonevar22

Bench Warmer
Oct 15, 2004
702
0
USA
#65
Feynoord is right about Shah being a dictator. Yes, we all say Shah was million times better than garbage khominie and all his SOB supporters. We all wish he was still in power rather then the murderous muslim regime. However, lets put in perspective. The downfall of Shah happend due to very few things going the wrong way. 1) If shah had just given freedom a liitle earlier, or 2) did not leave the country and let bakhtiar run the show 3) if Bakhtiar government could last few more months (could have happend if shah stayed), etc.. However, if it had gone right, Iran could have been a democracy (with very likely Shah as a king overseeing, while elected gov running the country), and we will be looking at a country emerging along with BRICS countries.

So, the path traveled was a tiny way off, but the end result went total Shit that Khominie and all his supporters were and are.
he had to leave(pressure from Britain and US) but his intentions WERE not that he was not going to come back.I have always believed if Shah was in power for a few more years Iran would of been what Turkey is today.And I know both you and feyenoord are huge backers of Mossadegh which is fine its understandable y Shah to you guys was a dictator.
 
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feyenoord

Bench Warmer
Aug 23, 2005
1,706
0
#66
The issue is precisely socialism.

The deal with socialism is this. It is for closet tyrants who wish to be a hero with other peoples money, taking other people's freedom to quickly fix what they think is unfair. It is short-term at the expense of the long-term. It is short-term at the expense of long-term. It is short-term at the expense of the long-term. This is not a typo. This is to emphasize the truth that escapes most AND we have witnessed it play out in case of Iran like it always will do in every society, past, present and future. A socialist will without an exception cause more harm in the long run than any good he achieves in the short-run. Mossadegh was a socialist. And he did prove to be a closet tyrant, by the way. Did he or did he not ask for emergency powers to subvert the constitution to do as he saw fit for six months? If he succeeded do you think that he would stop at six months. I don't think so. Did he or did he not illegally stop voting to ensure that he kept the majority in the parliament? He knew and believed that Iranians are just not ready to govern themselves and need a little help. And in what way is that different than the Shah? In fact those were Shah's exact words. How can you be so critical of the Shah and overlook Mossadegh's faults? I am not discrediting the service that Mossadegh provided to Iran and Iranians just like I would not do the same with Shah's. I am pointing out that he had faults and made mistakes.

Lets take land reform. A plan imposed instantly by the central government to restore what is fair under the guise of say modernism or whatever is faulty. It is short-term at the expense of the long-term. The short-term gain that Mossadegh was after and the Shah was after was to become a hero. Instead the question to ask is this, have these people, the arbab and ra'yats entered into a contract with each other on their own or not? They had. Even if it is unfair the right thing to do is to try to make fair in the next round of bargaining, not to rip out all existing contracts. Then slowly as the ra'yats, each at a different speed, become ready they will get a chance to choose a different route. For example, the government could have developed other farm land and offered it as competition to the arbab's contract so if a particular ra'yat did not wish to stay with the arbab could have taken up the land. And the land should not just be given to ra'yats. They would earn it after certain number of years. This takes time to restore fairness but it would not cause the social dislocations we witnessed.
iam sorry but you are absolutely mixing issues IMO. So, in your opinion has Europe a better democracy or US?or better put: have Western European countries better democratic systems or US??? Social democracy has nothing to do with tyranny as many European countries have democracies. Some the best democracies in the world: Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Holland, Denmark, etc... Social policies both under Shah and Mosaddegh were absolutely necessary to generate a strong state and a strong middle class which is paramount to democratic state. Look at how many countries have followed this path.

Fole jan, you are telling me that "iam making too many assumptions". However, it seems that you are also making a lot of assumptions yourself. Like saying that he could have turned to be a tyrant. You got to realize that not every one in the world believes in the way you are seeing a person being or not being a tyrant. And yes, Mosaddegh made mistake as well. Lets not make saints out of people. Where does your assumptions comes from that I do not see Mosaddeghs faults??
However, democratization has its own process and most countries in the world do not follow US's path and values of democracy.

I am not an absolutist person and I try to see the good and the bad in people.
 

feyenoord

Bench Warmer
Aug 23, 2005
1,706
0
#67
Well you seemed very sure he was a dictotar like you lived through it, since were about the same age my friend. what i find a joke is the fact you weren't even around when the Shah was around but your absolutely certain that he was soooooo evil because you were told he was a dictator and an evil evil man because he protect his regime or you read a few books that were written by people who are and will always be against the guy, well the same people that set u up with that mind set are to be blamed for what Our generation has today.I know a lot of Iranians that went out against the Shah and now are like che ghalati kardim che ghohe khordim.What I find a joke is everyone with your mindset still take enjoyment of blaming the Shah for everything the IR are doing still, As I mentioned before he has been dead for 30+ plus years try to find a another person to blame man, How come you don't bash Khomeini or his policies? Atleast with Khomeini you've lived it and not gone with reading what others want you to believe about him.
First look up the definition of a dictator in encyclopedia. Then we can talk...
Khomeini was a different kind. He was a mass murdering totalitarian dictator and a total religious fascist . But the definition of a dictator matches up with what shah was. Sorry, I just dont buy this whole distortion of history. Just because the revolution resulted in an absolute disaster, doesnt mean that shah was a non-dictator.
 

parham79

Bench Warmer
Dec 5, 2009
1,767
0
#68
he had to leave(pressure from Britain and US) but his intentions WERE not that he was not going to come back.I have always believed if Shah was in power for a few more years Iran would of been what Turkey is today.And I know both you and feyenoord are huge backers of Mossadegh which is fine its understandable y Shah to you guys was a dictator.
Turkey? no chance . You have to understand the industrial base shah was building. Iran was going to the biggest steal producer in the world. He had been dealing with the japanese to help Iran build a indiginouse electronic facilities where iran was going to start producing TV's, Fridges, Washing machines, air conditions and so on. His regime estimated that in the period of 11 years Iran's level national budget would grow by 7 times with the price of oil and a far more diverse economy. From 1976 to 1987 it was estimated Iran's economy with the oil and gas along steel and other petrochemical products that iran was going to build would be on par with most of ther biggest europian countries. Shah's ministers were all educated at the highest degree of business know how and were plannng well ahead.

Some europian economic experts had Irans standardf of living reaching those of England by the early 90's. Iran was planning to be the japan of the region. Turkey?
 

Zob Ahan

Elite Member
Feb 4, 2005
17,481
2,233
#69
he had to leave(pressure from Britain and US) but his intentions WERE not that he was not going to come back.I have always believed if Shah was in power for a few more years Iran would of been what Turkey is today.And I know both you and feyenoord are huge backers of Mossadegh which is fine its understandable y Shah to you guys was a dictator.
No way. We would have been way ahead of Turkey. Are you kidding me? Back then the Turks envied us and our growth rate was much higher.
 
Jun 7, 2004
3,196
0
#70
No way. We would have been way ahead of Turkey. Are you kidding me? Back then the Turks envied us and our growth rate was much higher.
This reminds me of a recent conversation I heard. I heard an Iranian mention with awe that Istanbul is among the finalists for the 2020 Olympics. Tehran was one of two cities considered for 1984 Olympics. Truly the 1979 revolution has been a great, great regress for Iran and Iranians.
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#71
No way. We would have been way ahead of Turkey. Are you kidding me? Back then the Turks envied us and our growth rate was much higher.
We would have been Turkey with industry, natural resources, more broadly educated population, no drain of workers as in Turkey...I don't know...maybe Northern Italy with gas and without the Euro. Anyway, unfortunately it's gone and my generation will probably never see that...let's move forward...makes no sense to delve in the past.
 

joonevar22

Bench Warmer
Oct 15, 2004
702
0
USA
#72
First look up the definition of a dictator in encyclopedia. Then we can talk...
Khomeini was a different kind. He was a mass murdering totalitarian dictator and a total religious fascist . But the definition of a dictator matches up with what shah was. Sorry, I just dont buy this whole distortion of history. Just because the revolution resulted in an absolute disaster, doesnt mean that shah was a non-dictator.
Very mature buddy.....am not going to argue with about this no more because I've made my point.Shah was 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better then this shit and thats it, hala you wanna label him a dictator or a killer or whatever makes you happy I don't agree with you because am against MKO and Tudeh communists so to me if Shah killed them so be it.I mean your going to have ill feelings towards the Shah just by looking at your Avatar of H.Fatemi and his views about the Shah and his father your obviously of the same mind set of Fatemi.So were on opposite sides of the field in this matter.
 
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Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#73
We would have been Turkey with industry, natural resources, more broadly educated population, no drain of workers as in Turkey...I don't know...maybe Northern Italy with gas and without the Euro. Anyway, unfortunately it's gone and my generation will probably never see that...let's move forward...makes no sense to delve in the past.
I am not sure I completely agree. We assume that the economic progress would have continued non stop. In my opinion any economic development without building the political and social infrastructure to support it, is doomed to fail.

They say there was one noted difference between Ataturk and Reza Shah: Ataturk realized the importance of building a political infrastructure that could outlive him,and built a multi-party secular semi-democratic system supported by the military which has endured so far. Both Reza Shah and his son failed to realize the importance of it. Their system of governance was essentially based on one man rule.

Interestingly enough, the difficulty of getting rid of IRI is because it has built a fairly robust political machinery for itself that is independent of individuals. That has made it hard to defeat.
 

parham79

Bench Warmer
Dec 5, 2009
1,767
0
#74
Te economic progress would have continued because the industrial infastructure was being built. Infact we had so many projects and not enough labour help in Iran so we had to import people to help on the these.Shah had orderd a far more diverse economy where the country had to become a full industrial power where all the needs of the country had to be produced inside the country with 11 to 15 years from 1976 an onwards.To have a powerfull economy they knew iran could not continue to ely on oil and be an import country.

As for politics, the problem with the so called opposition back then was they had no intention of working with the Shah. They were after his removal AT ALL COSTS.Armed marxist islamists had no intetion of working with him. The so called roshan fekers were asking for everything and not wiling o work with him and his socia and militar progress.
 
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Zob Ahan

Elite Member
Feb 4, 2005
17,481
2,233
#75
Te economic progress would have continued because the industrial infastructure was being built. Infact we had so many projects and not enough labour help in Iran so we had to import people to help on the these.Shah had orderd a far more diverse economy where the country had to become a full industrial power where all the needs of the country had to be produced inside the country with 11 to 15 years from 1976 an onwards.To have a powerfull economy they knew iran could not continue to ely on oil and be an import country.

As for politics, the problem with the so called opposition back then was they had no intention of working with the Shah. They were after his removal AT ALL COSTS.Armed marxist islamists had no intetion of working with him. The so called roshan fekers were asking for everything and not wiling o work with him and his socia and militar progress.


I disagree with the bold parts. Everyone but the Toodehis/Fadaian and MKO were willing to work within the system. The talk of the Shah's removal wasn't even an option until early 1357. Bazargan in 1356 told the court that "we are the last people that would be willing to reform the system. The next opposition will pick up arms".
 

Mahdi

Elite Member
Jan 1, 1970
6,999
497
Mjunik
#76
I am not sure I completely agree. We assume that the economic progress would have continued non stop. In my opinion any economic development without building the political and social infrastructure to support it, is doomed to fail.

They say there was one noted difference between Ataturk and Reza Shah: Ataturk realized the importance of building a political infrastructure that could outlive him,and built a multi-party secular semi-democratic system supported by the military which has endured so far. Both Reza Shah and his son failed to realize the importance of it. Their system of governance was essentially based on one man rule.

Interestingly enough, the difficulty of getting rid of IRI is because it has built a fairly robust political machinery for itself that is independent of individuals. That has made it hard to defeat.
It's nothing that I disagree with but I believe that this would have been a further natural process of the development of Iran. Had there been a little bit more patience and better and more political leaders, it might have happened. One problem might have been that a lot of smart and enlightened people were either in Shah's camp (Amuzegar types) or dead/in prison/didn't bother etc.
 

parham79

Bench Warmer
Dec 5, 2009
1,767
0
#77
[/B]

I disagree with the bold parts. Everyone but the Toodehis/Fadaian and MKO were willing to work within the system. The talk of the Shah's removal wasn't even an option until early 1357. Bazargan in 1356 told the court that "we are the last people that would be willing to reform the system. The next opposition will pick up arms".
If Bazargan said hat and Shah wasn not willing to listen then yes, he sould have been more open, but the MKO were getting their orders from the KGB and the soviets. They had no intention of sticking around to reform anything. Bakhtiyar gave hese guys everything they wanted, but in the end they got greedy and the end result is the mess today.
 

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#78
I am not sure I completely agree. We assume that the economic progress would have continued non stop. In my opinion any economic development without building the political and social infrastructure to support it, is doomed to fail.

They say there was one noted difference between Ataturk and Reza Shah: Ataturk realized the importance of building a political infrastructure that could outlive him,and built a multi-party secular semi-democratic system supported by the military which has endured so far. Both Reza Shah and his son failed to realize the importance of it. Their system of governance was essentially based on one man rule.

Interestingly enough, the difficulty of getting rid of IRI is because it has built a fairly robust political machinery for itself that is independent of individuals. That has made it hard to defeat.
Very true on every account. Shah built an economic and educational structure with 20th century western standards but wanted a political system that was run like Sheikhdom. You simply can't continue to educate people, raise their economic status, and expect them to not stand up for their rights.

More importantly, while he abolished all the political infrastructure in the country, he let the mosques to operate pretty much freely. When 1357 arrived the mosques and clergy had this robust organizational structure through mosques that other parties did not have, so they easily dominated those other factions because they were simply more effective and organized. The lack of political infrastructure not only helped (or even caused) the revolution, but it shaped its outcome in favor of the clergy.