Is Iran better off today than it was in the 1990’s?

[DireStraits]

Ofcourse NO. How can you be in doubt?
Dollar price has gone up.
Life is harder.
economy is gone down. Just look at football stadiums. How many people are there in stadiums now compare to 10 years ago? Ali Daei said it. It is because of econmy.
Still Iran Air is closed. No flights out of Iran.
Heavy sanctions. Low oil price.
They are sucking our oil up at cheapest possible price. We may get our freedom once no oil is left. Future is dark.
[video=youtube;b2QVl6Cfb4E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2QVl6Cfb4E[/video]
گریه کردم ناله کردم حلقه بر هر در زدم
سنگ سنگ کلبه ویرانه بر سر زدم
اب از ابی نجنبید خفته از خوابی نجنبید

 

[DireStraits]

is any of you commenting here living in iran now?

You mean if we moved to Iran we could see we are wrong.

 

[Bi-honar]

Personally for me, none of this stuff had any effect on me.

It may not have had a lasting effect on us Fatso jaan because we've lived outside the country for so long, but I kinda understand what Soroosh is saying here. Had we still been living in Iran, I think things would have been very different and it's hard to ignore that the general population (living there) is more dogmatic, depressed and hopeless. Hell, you can see those qualities loud and clear even here and among friends who lived under the IR for some time and are living outside Iran now.

 

[keyvan_pars]

Okay I'm generalizing. That's why those in Iran can identify so much with those who left Iran before or in the early days of the revolution. That's why a figure like Mousavi, Karoubi and even Rafsanjani gains so much popularity in a country where "none of this stuff had any effect" on people

Despite a massive hike in information flow and education level, Iran is a much more religious, much more superstitious and much more indecisive nation than it was 30 years ago. This is all the effect of the Islamic Republic education system and propaganda. That's all I'm saying.

Exactly. could not have heard it better.

...propaganda and FEAR.

the brutality in which people were suppressed in 2009 has left a longing fear in the memory of Iranian people.

 

[ChaharMahal]

Despite a massive hike in information flow and education level, Iran is a much more religious, much more superstitious and much more indecisive nation than it was 30 years ago. This is all the effect of the Islamic Republic education system and propaganda. That's all I'm saying.

I am not sure what indecisive has to with being religious. Khomeini was pretty decisive guy.

but the more important point being what is the barometer that points to people being more religious?

Surely There are at least two schools of thoughts in Iran when it comes to practicing religion.
Tarighat (Daravish)
Shariat (Akhoonds)

It seems to me that Daravish are suffering from a lack of new Blood and government persecution.

The Much larger group Shariat does not seem to be as healthy as 30 years ago per the following.

The participation Rate at mosques
The participation Rate at Ashoora and Tasooa
The compliance with Full Hejab seems to all time-low
The Broadcasting of live music in City Streets which thirty years ago was impossible.

It is true that Iranian people to a large degree are still superstitious but how did we determine that they more so than 30 years ago?

 

[Bache Tehroon]

You're using people's methods of participating in social activities as a measurement for your argument. It doesn't work that way.

In Europe and North America people are visiting each other a lot less compared to 50 years ago. Does that mean they're less in touch? Not at all. If anything, they're more aware of each others' immediate situation than ever.

Participation in mosques, Ashoor and Tasoo'a doesn't really indicate a change in people's beliefs. Those are social gatherings and are slowly fading away as they lose their benefits.

Hejab is an inconvenience for women, so it will slowly fade away and is no indication of a change in their spiritual beliefs. If you look back in history, voluntary Hejab has always been at an 'all time low' compared to its past. Less and less women will wear hejab voluntarily as time passes. Forced Hejab is an impossibility in the long run anyway and will go away.

 

[ChaharMahal]

You're using people's methods of participating in social activities as a measurement for your argument. It doesn't work that way.

In Europe and North America people are visiting each other a lot less compared to 50 years ago. Does that mean they're less in touch? Not at all. If anything, they're more aware of each others' immediate situation than ever.

Participation in mosques, Ashoor and Tasoo'a doesn't really indicate a change in people's beliefs. Those are social gatherings and are slowly fading away as they lose their benefits.

Hejab is an inconvenience for women, so it will slowly fade away and is no indication of a change in their spiritual beliefs.

Look; You said the society is more religious than 30 years ago.
I still have not seen any circumstantial evidence pointing to that.

I am skeptical because of what I said and some more.
In the End of the Day being Religious means that you observe certain semantics required by that Religion's institutions.
In the Case of Christianity going to Sunday Mass or Christmas Mass, or Easter Mass would be some indications of one's certain degree of religiosity.

In Islam/Shia There are far more functions to participate in which increases the Sampling population.

To add to previous stuff
Do More people Pray Five times a day in their own Homes?
Do More people Fast 30 days of Ramadan than 30 years ago?
Do More people go to private tutoring classes for Quran or Other Religious studies?
Do More people go Sofreh Abolfazl and ...?
Do More people Cook Ash Nazri?
Do More people Host Cermons by An Akhoond on Fridays in Their Yards
Do More people Whisper Azan in ears of Babies?

At the End of the day you must exhibit your religiosity in some fashion.

I am just not sure what leads you to believe that Iranians are more religious than 30 years ago.

Again That's not to say Iranians are not religious; but the key point that you presented is that they are more religious than 30 years ago.

 

[Zob Ahan]

BT I agree with most of your viewpoints on this topic except I don't think people are more religious today than the 1990s. It is the other way around. Alot of people have lost faith in their religion.

 

[keyvan_pars]

Islam was small business during the reign of Mohamad Reza Shah.

during the reign of Rooh-ollah it became a corporation.

seyd ali e mafool made it into a conglomerate of corporations.


ملت جمهوری اسلامی هم که قربونشون برم این باد هستن . یک روز سوسیالیست و کمونیست و آخوند و ملی گرا همه میرن تو کون خعمینی
بعد همه میشن طرفدار طالقانی
یک سال باد میشن میمون (مقلد) شریعت مداری
بعد میشن دلقک خاتمی
بعد میگن پ م م (پرسیدنت محمود مشنگ) برای محرومان اومده
حالا هم که روحانی میخواهد کلاهک اتمی بچپونه توی فلان ا شون و همه مثل گوسفند به به میکنن

مشگل آخوند و خدا و پیغمبر نیستن هر آدمی با یک ربع عقل میدونه که بست دین و مذهب یعنی بخور بخور مشگل خود ا ملت هستند که بهشون فرو میره باز هم چهار دست و پا میشینن که بهشون فرو بره

من اینور اونور خواندم که مثلا در زمان خاتمی هنر و ادبیات شکوفا شد یا الان ایران جوانان گروهه موسیقی هوی متال داران مثل این عکسها و این یک مبارزه مدنی است
این یعنی از دست دادن هویت و ترسیدن در اینه نگاه کردن
اگر کسی حجاب اش اومده پایین یا مثلا تو پارک از دختر لب میگیره برای این هاست که سپاه و بسیج این رو میخاد نه اینکه مسالان یارو داره مثل بابک خرمدین یا ابو مسلم ضد آخوند مبارزه میکنه
این مبارزه نیست این خود را زدن به اون راه است

 

[feyenoord]

Trough my gf who came out of Iran around 2 years ago I have had the privilege to get to know members of activists who are part of Iran's green movement, active members of civil society and are supporters of Mousavi. Now the girl I am dating is from a small city in North of Iran and she is a feminist and not religious at all. Most of her friends who are activists and some are well known or have been imprisoned during and in the aftermath of 2009 elections, are also non-religious. Among them are people with liberal views, neo-marxists and feminists. Many of these people support Mousavi NOT because of his religion or something. No, there are different reasons for it. One that I hear often is that he did not back off and stood with people.

Funny thing is since I have got to know many of them, I have realized that Iranians inside Iran are more brighter than dogmatic Iranians outside. Yes, they do not stand up and get their rights for some reasons but they have far better understanding of the matters IMO. Funny thing is, my gf thinks that Iranians outside are far more dogmatic.

In the end, what BT says is more personal than anything else IMO. It is just generalization.

 

[Playboy]

is any of you commenting here living in iran now?

considering the angry and reactionary responses i got the answer must be 'no'.

 

[keyvan_pars]

Trough my gf who came out of Iran around 2 years ago I have had the privilege to get to know members of activists who are part of Iran's green movement, active members of civil society and are supporters of Mousavi. Now the girl I am dating is from a small city in North of Iran and she is a feminist and not religious at all. Most of her friends who are activists and some are well known or have been imprisoned during and in the aftermath of 2009 elections, are also non-religious. Among them are people with liberal views, neo-marxists and feminists. Many of these people support Mousavi NOT because of his religion or something. No, there are different reasons for it. One that I hear often is that he did not back off and stood with people.

Funny thing is since I have got to know many of them, I have realized that Iranians inside Iran are more brighter than dogmatic Iranians outside. Yes, they do not stand up and get their rights for some reasons but they have far better understanding of the matters IMO. Funny thing is, my gf thinks that Iranians outside are far more dogmatic.

In the end, what BT says is more personal than anything else IMO. It is just generalization.

some interesting points.

However, to generalise without some sort of evidence seems to be a little abstract.

Let me clarify what I mean by generalisation;

Who are 'Iranians outside Iran' ?
by what do you (or your lady friend) classifies 'iranians outside IR' ? one year, two years, 35 years or even one day ?

Also, as to your very accurate comment

they do not stand up and get their rights for some reasons

I suspect one reason might be fear of the security forces which is a formidable task for any pacific and civilized human being.

I am sure of myself that this would not be a course i would have chosen being subject to what the regular person is in Iran, on daily basis, but I can easily say that 85% of people i know would sit around and do nothing because they do not believe in acting in a group and also are against working towards a social democratic secular republic in which most of people can have basic human rights because it means taking belongings away from the filthy rich (in form of taxes and supplanting corruption) and providing towards education and health of the group.

 

[shahinc]

considering the angry and reactionary responses i got the answer must be 'no'.

And while everyone answered your question, you refused to answer the same question.

Do you live in Iran ?

 

[feyenoord]

some interesting points.

However, to generalise without some sort of evidence seems to be a little abstract.

Let me clarify what I mean by generalisation;

Who are 'Iranians outside Iran' ?
by what do you (or your lady friend) classifies 'iranians outside IR' ? one year, two years, 35 years or even one day ?

Also, as to your very accurate comment I suspect one reason might be fear of the security forces which is a formidable task for any pacific and civilized human being.

I dont disagree with you that I may be generalizing. Look, in the end we do a lot of generalizations in our statistics. You do it as well, and it is visible in your previous post. BT also did it in his points. I believe his issue is far more on personal level. Anyway, when I say Iranians outside Iran, I mean especially the older generation who lack critical thinking about issues. In my opinion the younger generation are exposed to many sources though which they can think more critically about issues and at the same time they do not believe in absolute values (or absolute truth).

I am sure of myself that this would not be a course i would have chosen being subject to what the regular person is in Iran, on daily basis, but I can easily say that 85% of people i know would sit around and do nothing because they do not believe in acting in a group and also are against working towards a social democratic secular republic in which most of people can have basic human rights because it means taking belongings away from the filthy rich (in form of taxes and supplanting corruption) and providing towards education and health of the group.

You may be right. Another issue is that Iran has oil and thus government run economy, which in turn corrupts people and at the same time paves the way for oppression. Another issue is that the way the revolution has turned out has made people distrust to have another revolution. I personally believe that revolutions are reactionary and there is not much thinking and strategy involved in them.

 

[parham79]

In the late to early 2000's life was better.Things were less expensive and there was some social freedom compared to khomenies and war period.. It sill dosent come close to anything to the last 15 years of the Shah when Iran was rocketing to become a superpower, but compared how incompetent this regime had been from the outset, atleast it was filled with little more hope.But it is not fair to blame this regimes economic collapse on Ahmadinejad. Rafsanjani is the bastard who invited sepah and the invisible mafia into Iran's economy wich has sucked the life out of Iran's wealth.It has been 35 years of plundering and destruction.

 

[TeamMeli]

The one huge difference between now and 20 years ago is how apolitical people have become. Not ONE political word is spoken when you get together. It is all about how to live, make money and get ahead. Those taxi cabs rants we all fondly remember are gone. Not a word is spoken. They have written off regime change entirely. There are enough goodies in shops that you can live it up only if you had the dough. So off to work I go.

That is so true 20 years ago Iranians were so well informed but now the goal is different as long as they are fed, they are happy. Also the word better is a relative term is Iran better off from 20 years ago, yes they don't need to worry about a war. Is Iran good NOPE. I don't have the numbers but even the government of Iran estimates that unemployment is as high as 40%, so the real number is probably closer to 60%. Six out of Ten Iranians are probably looking for work. Also, the toman has gone way up(I don't know the conversion rate) but last time I checked it was 4000-1USD and price for food increased as well greatly. When I visited in 2006 it was bad so I'm sure eight years later it is a lot worse.

 

[keyvan_pars]

I dont disagree with you that I may be generalizing. Look, in the end we do a lot of generalizations in our statistics. You do it as well, and it is visible in your previous post. BT also did it in his points. I believe his issue is far more on personal level. Anyway, when I say Iranians outside Iran, I mean especially the older generation who lack critical thinking about issues. In my opinion the younger generation are exposed to many sources though which they can think more critically about issues and at the same time they do not believe in absolute values (or absolute truth).

Then again critical thinking is a state of mind and does not match with age.
To analyse an issue, be it a social, political, etc., one must consider all angles. Taking that course in matters, some of the older generation (because they have seen before and after) are able to dig deeper into matters. And taking your point that 'younger generation are exposed to many sources' assuming you mean online sources that have not been available in previous decades, I will quote:"seek and you will find".
My father being in his late 60s does at least three to fours a day of research on the internet.

so again generalisation can be applied to the youth and to the elderly.
My confusion is when statements are made with no evidence to back them up.
par example: 'especially the older generation that lack critical thinking', I am afraid this is a paradoxical statement because for every older person living outside iran that lacks the ability for critical thinking i can present 5 under IR.

You may be right. Another issue is that Iran has oil and thus government run economy, which in turn corrupts people and at the same time paves the way for oppression. Another issue is that the way the revolution has turned out has made people distrust to have another revolution. I personally believe that revolutions are reactionary and there is not much thinking and strategy involved in them.

Well yes. Revolution or rebellion should be the last resort for the simple moral reason that it ends in loss of human life and bloodshed. The question is that are all other avenues exhausted. In my view all other avenues were exhausted many years ago but since I don't live under the oppression of the shite clerical regime in IR it is not for me to say that it is time for a rebellion or not.

It is their decision to make not mine. (by their i mean the people who live in the land once called Iran)

 

[Ardesheer]

considering the angry and reactionary responses i got the answer must be 'no'.

No, that was the indication of how dumb the question was without giving an answer.

 

[masoudA]

thanks to the human effort and the third industrial revolution (telecom) you don't really need to rely on here say anymore.
You can see by yourself.
in addition, i am sure at every corner of the earth people come in touch with people who have just left IR or travel back and forth.

KP jaan - there are things going on in Iran you can only experience when you live there. BT said people have become more religious......yes there are more Shaam Gahribaan and sofreh nazri, but only when you get to know these people you understand how fake they truly are and how these events are a part of a certain social/political correctness. I was went to a masjid on Ashura - met saheb aza (the guy who paid for the whole thing) in his house before going to masjid - found him doing opium and vodka with his friends, before we all proceeded to the masjid!!!! Iranians have an amazing ability to fake and adjust.......which is not necessarily a good thing. Only by living and working in Iran you get to scratch the surface of all the pretending that goes on amongst the population. I bet you even Khamenei does a little baba karam in his solitude!!

Anyway guys - anything good that may have happened in Iran in the last 20 years is not because of IR - it is despite IR. Let me give you an example......during the shah era we were so bombarded with the western culture....we had very little time or interest to get to know Molana or Hafez......after the revolt IR puts out so much BS propaganda on TV which nobody watches.....but it has freed up a lot of time to get into other stuff in a selective manner. Feynord is correct - the new generation of Iranians raised in Iran are great.....despite IR.

 

[Persian-Eagle-13]

BT I agree with most of your viewpoints on this topic except I don't think people are more religious today than the 1990s. It is the other way around. Alot of people have lost faith in their religion.

base on my experience people outside of iran are more religious than the ones inside of iran!! cause whenever you are not forced to do something you do it as you see fit and at your own convenience. but when you are forced to do something you do a half ass job at best and it becomes civil disobedience.

the new generation in iran is totally missed up when it comes to religion.