تصاويری از اثرات "مبارزه" رژيم اسلامی با خرافات در روز عاشورا
HERE'S YOUR ANSWER.
ITS NOT BRITIANS FAULT.
ITS NOT ARABS FAULT.
ITS NOT JEWS FAULT.
ITS NOT AMERICANS FAULT.
THERE ARE NO WESTERN PEOPLE IN THAT PICTURE. JUST IRANIANS WITH PROUD CULTURE OF 2500+ YEARS!
why do you guys make it so personal.
Do I agree with what these people are doing no.
but let's face they have fun doing it let them do it. they are not hurting anybody.
atleast these folks aren't stabbing themselves.
In western socities we have mudl wrestling which would make effectively look the same.
why to wish death on people whom we don't agree with nilou jan.
If anything having lived in a pularist society must have thaught us that coexistance is possible and people should be able to excercise their rituals and also invite others as long as it is not something harmful.
Do I agree with what these people are doing no.
but let's face they have fun doing it let them do it. they are not hurting anybody.
atleast these folks aren't stabbing themselves.
In western socities we have mudl wrestling which would make effectively look the same.
why to wish death on people whom we don't agree with nilou jan.
If anything having lived in a pularist society must have thaught us that coexistance is possible and people should be able to excercise their rituals and also invite others as long as it is not something harmful.
Only if it was that simple!
It’s not the act of covering yourself in mud that’s the problem. These people could cover themselves in golaab and I’d still complain. This is religious fervour stirred by the clergy, which results in more power for Islamic government. These types of orchestrated festivities coupled with effectively worshiping the dead can raise extreme passion among the people, which the governments can harness for their own use. That’s what makes Shi’ism so worrying for the neighbouring governments.
It’s not the act of covering yourself in mud that’s the problem. These people could cover themselves in golaab and I’d still complain. This is religious fervour stirred by the clergy, which results in more power for Islamic government. These types of orchestrated festivities coupled with effectively worshiping the dead can raise extreme passion among the people, which the governments can harness for their own use. That’s what makes Shi’ism so worrying for the neighbouring governments.
Im sorry but although I respect their different opinion, I cant tolerate though when they r doing this in public where its extremely disturbing for kids and any adult who does not want to witness these bloody/torture scenes.
or I cant tolerate how they abuse their little kids in their "Moharram show". Thats inhuman and unacceptable.
why dont they do these at their homes, torture themselves for Emam Hossein all they want, without taking picture/video to show off on the street/TV?! do they have to disturb others with their rituals?! why do millions of other ppl have to get disturbed bc of couple of them?!If anything, Freedom of action has its limits too. Its permitted until it damages/hurts other people, which it clearly does in these cases.
Moharam rituals and "Taziyeh show" in south of Tehran, Iran.
or I cant tolerate how they abuse their little kids in their "Moharram show". Thats inhuman and unacceptable.
why dont they do these at their homes, torture themselves for Emam Hossein all they want, without taking picture/video to show off on the street/TV?! do they have to disturb others with their rituals?! why do millions of other ppl have to get disturbed bc of couple of them?!If anything, Freedom of action has its limits too. Its permitted until it damages/hurts other people, which it clearly does in these cases.
Moharam rituals and "Taziyeh show" in south of Tehran, Iran.
saeed jan and nilou jan.
I must regretbly tell you than based on what you have said and based what I have seen in iranian society we are simply not ready for even a nim che jefersonian democracy.
and please believe me when I say I have sympathy for where you are coming from and from my point of view it would be best if such things were not happening.
yet a society is not perfect. you will always have people who think things that a certain people with certain background though is outragous.
extrimist moslems may think that a woman who flashes her boobs in in mardie gra deserves jail time or even worse death because so called upscenity.
It has been proven over the years that any where and any time where one faction tries to ban or forbid certain belief, practices, rituals or custom it actually has back lash and starts what you would call a culture war.
My point laws of the land should not be in step with where the society is not where the elite of the society are ( I like to include myself, nilou among the elite).
look at american civil rights movements and apreciate power of gradual change.
1930s FDR negotiates peace with native americans and grants them settlements (although crappies lands)
late 1940s Truman made the arm services non segricated.
1954 brown vs board of education against supreme court proved that seprate but no equal is not true.
1964 lindon johnson signs civil rights laws.
early 1970s busing programs to take black kids to predominantly white kid school and vice versa.
Then take a look at what reza shah did.
ye shabe elame kashfe hejab kard. the whole society essentialy went in to turmoil.
Once against Fundamentally I am with you. but I differ on the vision on how the change the country. instead of being confrontational. one must advertise thier own better practices nto simply spawn resenment and polarization.
I must regretbly tell you than based on what you have said and based what I have seen in iranian society we are simply not ready for even a nim che jefersonian democracy.
and please believe me when I say I have sympathy for where you are coming from and from my point of view it would be best if such things were not happening.
yet a society is not perfect. you will always have people who think things that a certain people with certain background though is outragous.
extrimist moslems may think that a woman who flashes her boobs in in mardie gra deserves jail time or even worse death because so called upscenity.
It has been proven over the years that any where and any time where one faction tries to ban or forbid certain belief, practices, rituals or custom it actually has back lash and starts what you would call a culture war.
My point laws of the land should not be in step with where the society is not where the elite of the society are ( I like to include myself, nilou among the elite).
look at american civil rights movements and apreciate power of gradual change.
1930s FDR negotiates peace with native americans and grants them settlements (although crappies lands)
late 1940s Truman made the arm services non segricated.
1954 brown vs board of education against supreme court proved that seprate but no equal is not true.
1964 lindon johnson signs civil rights laws.
early 1970s busing programs to take black kids to predominantly white kid school and vice versa.
Then take a look at what reza shah did.
ye shabe elame kashfe hejab kard. the whole society essentialy went in to turmoil.
Once against Fundamentally I am with you. but I differ on the vision on how the change the country. instead of being confrontational. one must advertise thier own better practices nto simply spawn resenment and polarization.
Let me add to what esemani has already said, to all of which I strongly agree. Thank God freedom is slowly but surely becoming more valued here.
Just a few reminders before getting to the main piont. First, I strongly disagree with Shia religion. Second, I have news for you, experience shows that Sunnis as a group are even more mota'asseb and far more violent. Just witness your friendly Pakistani neighbor on the right and the Iraqi situation on the left. Up until recently Saudi Arabia executed people for being openly Shias. In fact they had one such execution in early 80s. Third these are general statements. So the neighboring governments are not concerned because they value their own liberties rather they want to have their own brand of fanaticism. Lastly, not all Shias do or even agree with what the people in those pictures are doing and not all Sunnis are insanely mote'asseb and violent. We are talking about a billion people here. There is a huge variation among such a large population.
And that brings me to my last point. Aside from the neighboring country comment I agree with all that you said but not with the means or methods others on this forum and elsewhere have adopted in dealing with the problem. If the problem is as you state, then insulting what is sacred to them, insulting their gods, demonizing entire poplulations and worse wishing death on them for their beliefs (not that you personally are doing this, you may I do not know) , is immoral and unjust and not surprisingly always harmful to your own self in the long run. It only makes the problem worse. You hurl insults at someones god and they become even more mote'asseb. The problem gets worse.
As repulsive as such acts may be to one's taste, justice and long-term self interest dictates a different response. Freedom, quite the opposite of what people presume requires the highest level of self discipline and self-denial. Those who cannot attain the latter will never be able to achieve freedom in their own life let alone as a community.
I absolutely do not advocate self censorship or not calling what you find false. But much of what is said is simply insults with no content.
Just a few reminders before getting to the main piont. First, I strongly disagree with Shia religion. Second, I have news for you, experience shows that Sunnis as a group are even more mota'asseb and far more violent. Just witness your friendly Pakistani neighbor on the right and the Iraqi situation on the left. Up until recently Saudi Arabia executed people for being openly Shias. In fact they had one such execution in early 80s. Third these are general statements. So the neighboring governments are not concerned because they value their own liberties rather they want to have their own brand of fanaticism. Lastly, not all Shias do or even agree with what the people in those pictures are doing and not all Sunnis are insanely mote'asseb and violent. We are talking about a billion people here. There is a huge variation among such a large population.
And that brings me to my last point. Aside from the neighboring country comment I agree with all that you said but not with the means or methods others on this forum and elsewhere have adopted in dealing with the problem. If the problem is as you state, then insulting what is sacred to them, insulting their gods, demonizing entire poplulations and worse wishing death on them for their beliefs (not that you personally are doing this, you may I do not know) , is immoral and unjust and not surprisingly always harmful to your own self in the long run. It only makes the problem worse. You hurl insults at someones god and they become even more mote'asseb. The problem gets worse.
As repulsive as such acts may be to one's taste, justice and long-term self interest dictates a different response. Freedom, quite the opposite of what people presume requires the highest level of self discipline and self-denial. Those who cannot attain the latter will never be able to achieve freedom in their own life let alone as a community.
I absolutely do not advocate self censorship or not calling what you find false. But much of what is said is simply insults with no content.
Saeedb jan,
mashdi did an "estekhareh" whether to make a post against "khorafat",and that's what he got:
http://www.niksalehi.com/estekhareh0.htm
mashdi did an "estekhareh" whether to make a post against "khorafat",and that's what he got:
http://www.niksalehi.com/estekhareh0.htm
استخاره با قرآن
و آنان كه كافر شدند و ايات ما را تكذيب كردند
آنها آتش دوزخ و در ان جاودان و
مخلدند . و آنجا بسيار بد منزلگاهي است
ايه ي 10 سوره ي تغابن
نهي شديد به خاطر بد فرجامي
(یعنی : نکن ،آخر و عاقبت نداره)
و آنان كه كافر شدند و ايات ما را تكذيب كردند
آنها آتش دوزخ و در ان جاودان و
مخلدند . و آنجا بسيار بد منزلگاهي است
ايه ي 10 سوره ي تغابن
نهي شديد به خاطر بد فرجامي
(یعنی : نکن ،آخر و عاقبت نداره)
As long as they don't impose their fundamentalist religious views into the political sphere or make their religious Book the Supreme Law of the Land, as long as they pose no harm (bodily or financially etc) to me, my family and other members of the society who don't share the same religious view with them, they can cover themselves in anything (ethical of course) they want. I'm sure in a 3000 years old society which claims the right to advent of civilization allocating a special day for a group of its constituents so they go through what ever the ritual they like (under aforementioned conditions) should not be a problem and under no circumstances be prohibited. Actually I believe government holds a direct responsibility to provide safety through out the ceremony by deploying security forces if needed.
And it could be a bonus if this group would refrain from voting....(Just a j/k guys don't crucify me for saying it.)
And it could be a bonus if this group would refrain from voting....(Just a j/k guys don't crucify me for saying it.)
Saeedb aziz,
i'm afraid,in your relentless effort to fight "khorafat",you are begining to lose your sense of humor.
let me lay it out for you in simpler terms:
"estekhareh" is part and parcel of "khorafat",so mashdi resorting to "estekhareh" to fight "khorafat" is a contradiction in terms!!
hope you now got the sarcasm in poor mashdi's previous post.
mashdi has a half finished "taziyeh" تعزیه piece,once it's done and posted,you might enjoy it,provided that you have hopefully preserved some sense of humor by then.
mashdi ro inghadr aziyyat nakon.gonah dareh.:--wink:
i'm afraid,in your relentless effort to fight "khorafat",you are begining to lose your sense of humor.
let me lay it out for you in simpler terms:
"estekhareh" is part and parcel of "khorafat",so mashdi resorting to "estekhareh" to fight "khorafat" is a contradiction in terms!!
hope you now got the sarcasm in poor mashdi's previous post.
mashdi has a half finished "taziyeh" تعزیه piece,once it's done and posted,you might enjoy it,provided that you have hopefully preserved some sense of humor by then.
mashdi ro inghadr aziyyat nakon.gonah dareh.:--wink:
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I think we forget that Persia lost the war 1300 years ago to arab invaders whose main goal was to Islamize Iran. That was the end of the nation that Cyrus, the communicator of the first human rights law advocated. The Iran that some of us advocate here is a lost cause and does not exist. For a short period of time, Pahlavi dynasty, whether good or bad, tried to bring back a new version of the nation which would respect religious belief of both secular and Islamic, although the Islamic group still had an edge. 1979 took Iran back to where perhaps the majority want to be, an Islamic country. Majority in Iran put Islam first before anything else and thus an Islamic republic makes sense. it is about integrity, where it dictates that a muslim follows the book of Koran 100%. I dont believe there is a way to follow that, unless a government is in place to promote it. A corrupt government we say, but hey, show one government that is not corrupt. Thus Saudi Arabia and Iran are true Islamic governments who although corrupt as least implement the Islamic laws.
So, rightly so, the religious Iranians have celebrated Ashoora Tassoa for centuries at some point, after the 13th century invasion. To tell them to stop doing it in whichever way they like, is wrong, regardless of how uncivilized these photos would look to the other world.
Esmani and Fole have a point here, that by banning the actions, it will backfire. Rather, if a change of government towards secularism ever happens, which in Islamic world would not make sense, the number of these people would gradually decrease, if they are shown the light of humanity. Although, like any democratic country, areas would be allocated for these rituals.
Iran must go through the most fanatic Islamic system if it is to become a democratic secular country. The country is still way too religious. You would need alot more seculars to balance the power of the religious which is what you have in the western country. We saw the few years of religious becoming more popular in US and its effect.
Till then, reluctantly, we must allow the winners to enjoy the country they won many centuries ago as the changes they forced through centuries destroyed any chances of the existence of the nation Cyrus envisioned.
So, rightly so, the religious Iranians have celebrated Ashoora Tassoa for centuries at some point, after the 13th century invasion. To tell them to stop doing it in whichever way they like, is wrong, regardless of how uncivilized these photos would look to the other world.
Esmani and Fole have a point here, that by banning the actions, it will backfire. Rather, if a change of government towards secularism ever happens, which in Islamic world would not make sense, the number of these people would gradually decrease, if they are shown the light of humanity. Although, like any democratic country, areas would be allocated for these rituals.
Iran must go through the most fanatic Islamic system if it is to become a democratic secular country. The country is still way too religious. You would need alot more seculars to balance the power of the religious which is what you have in the western country. We saw the few years of religious becoming more popular in US and its effect.
Till then, reluctantly, we must allow the winners to enjoy the country they won many centuries ago as the changes they forced through centuries destroyed any chances of the existence of the nation Cyrus envisioned.
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