Messi

[Kaz]

Well, it depends when you start looking. Maradona joined Napoli in 84 and in the 84-85 season they came 8th. But just two years earlier they came 4th. The year before that they came 3rd. I guess it is fair to say they were a team that fluctuated. But I would dispute Liverpool being rich in 03-05. Not really. There is a reason why Liverpool even entertained the idea of selling Gerrard and eventually sold the club to Gillette and Hicks - they needed money. Whereas Napoli broke all kinds of records to sign Maradona. Liverpool couldn't ever do that kind of thing - they still can't.

I am biased about Gerrard, I admit. But what Maradona did for a few years carrying Napoli, Gerrard has devoted his whole career for at Liverpool. As a 'Pool fan it is impossible not to appreciate that. His is a career filled with games where he dragged his team to victory. And he has won pretty much every club title possible bar the league. I am pretty sure he is also the only player (maybe just in England, not sure Internationally) who has scored in every cup final. If he had joined United earlier in his career or Chelsea later; his legacy would not be in doubt. He'd have won everything 2-3 times over. Which is why I agree with Mahdi in a way re championships won being a flawed argument - that would make Nicky Butt greater than Gerrard.

Anyway, I wasn't sure how you were gauging Maradona's achievement but if you are saying that Cavani winning the CL with Napoli is like it, then I would say Gerrard/Liverpool is just as apt, if not more. Anyway, this reminds that Napoli actually played Liverpool in the Europa where Gerrard came on as a sub (he was injured during that time), changed the game and won it by scoring a hat-trick.

[video=youtube;jO5bvrrEGhg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO5bvrrEGhg[/video]

 

[Sly]

You are just going way too far now,
Milan without Kaka had too many champs, Pirlo, Nesta, Gattuso, Nesta, Gilardino, Inzaghi, Seedorf, ect..
Barcelona witbout Messi has Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Basquet, Sanchez, Pique, Villa, ect...
Same goes to Bayern and Barca before.
Napoli had Careca, Ferrara, Di Napoli, Fusi, Carnevale, Zola, ect...
Zola was too young too play, Fusi and Carnevale were just avarage players, Di Napoli was decent but not the best in Italy. He was warming up the bench for Azzuri. Ferrara was great defender but nothing close to like of Scirea, Baresi ,Bergomi , Maldini, Gentile, Carbini, ect... Careca great forward but nothing compare to like of Van Basten, Voller, Baggio, Mancini, Signori, Vialli and on.
So as u see Napoli was no second devision team and never was but AT THE TIME just an avarage middle table team compare to monsters likes Inter, Milan, Juve, Roma , Sampdoria, Torino, Genoa, Verona, ect...
It hasnt been exaggerated but maradona over achieved with players around him at the very very difficut league among many Stars and great teams.
Kaz jan that year Gerrad was great but Liverpool generally much bigger team than Napoli in terms of money and players. If u had took Maradona out of Napoli, they would have been middle table team while Careca.would have scored half of what he scored.

byebyenow jan, at some point of time (I think it was after Maldini quit), I remember Milan had a lot of long term injuries and a lot of players, eventhough had big names, were out of form and/or old. Kaka was the only one carrying the team on his shoulders for a long time and he did it excellently. Any time he was out for any reason, Milan played just like a very average team, lacked creativity and had big problems scoring goals. I'm sure without him they would have ended in midtable as well. Also I have to add, Careca was not Baggio but he was still one of the best strikers in the world and a regular in Brazil's national team at some point of time. Maradona was one of the most influential players in the world. Without him, his team would have been much worse. but I really think people take it over the top, just because he took a club without a name to the top, although the side was really much better than its name and history at that time. I doubt such a big exaggeration would have come up among general views if the club's name was Juventus or Real Madrid but with the same players.

But anyways, these are all personal opinions. We will never know what would have happened with a lot of ifs and buts. One thing is clear though, and that is what you see on paper.

 

[Mahdi]

uh, give me a break! As if most of those immigrant players feel any real sense towards their original country. Zidane is much more French than anything from Algeria eventhough he might have said things publicly to gain popularity among Algerians! But even if they feel they are from their original country, you can't deny that WC is a more important event for a player who will play when almost the whole world watches, compared to CL when only certain amount of people watch. I don't think this is a matter of CL vs. WC issue, because it's not even up for discussion. I rather think when Argentina/Maradona fans "kam miyaran" when it comes to success in the WC, they try to put it down and bring up CL as a defense mechanism. Just to remind you, if Argentina wins the WC, they will just have won 3, out of which Maradona only won 1. I mean even Italy and German fans have a more solid and sound reason for why they support their teams.

Why should I give you a break? All things being equal, maybe it will be a matter of attitude. Otherwise, national pride is irrelevant.

 

[byebyenow]

I know what u saying sly, actually I have argued that how Napoli always been important for calcio. I know you simply need all eleven players to win, u just cant do everything yourself, no question in that. Ofcourse it has been exaggeration because he is the star and he has fans but so as Pele and rest of them. All of them grab hypes and exaggeration from people, no question in that. But they also grab hates and jelousy too from others. Believe me I know about that Napoli strength I know there were great players with Maradona in that team. But I believe what maradona added to that team was something more than just another great player he added what it needed for that team to be able to perform toe to toe with teams much much more stronger than Napoli on paper. Yes there has been other players too that were very influencal to their team like u said Kaka, also Gerrard, Zidane for France in 06, Baggio for Italy 94 but Maradona did that for straight five years which he won two Scudetto, one Coppa, one Uefa, and one WC and always among top four in Serie A standing. Napoli was struggling in early 80s, they werent the team in 70s anymore and many rich people has started spending for other Italian teams like Berlusconi in Milan. Napoli had to spend money and thats how they brought Maradona and Careca, it still looked not enough to challange other teams on paper but Maradona went against all odds and did what was unexpected. Kaka still was with Milan, you are comparing 360 Modena with Acura typeR and comparing Dark Aeges with Renaissance. You are comparing Milan with Napoli and post Calciopoli to golden era of Calcio. Milan in any year is much much stronger team with many more stars and way more money to Napoli. In 06-07 Milan was still the second strongest team in Italy after Inter on paper. They had been one of the strongest team in the world for while, they also had many WC champs in their squad from Azzuri. Seedorf that had won CL twice before. The reason Milan started with scoring problem was because one; sheva had left, two; Gilardino and Borriello were sitting ducks for all defenders. Also many WC champs started lagging off first that season but went back to normal while season went on. That year SerieA was garbage, no Juve, and Milan, Firentina and Lazio were all deductet points and Inter was the only strong team in the whole year. It was the struggling serieA season compare to late 80s and 90s which is still the best times of calcio. That year Milan was highly rated in Europe while Napoli was near relegation zone season before Maradona join them. Beside Careca, Ferrar and Di Napoli none of those player were part of any National team. Milan had too many. Milan only had Inter and somewhat Roma and Fiorentina to worry about while Napoli had majority of the league. Kaka was very influencial in one season while Maradona did that for five years both for Napoli and Argentina. Kaka was still among the champs and stars while Maradona was among decent players, I can go on and on.
Plus Ronaldo was added to Milan team in the second half and without Ronaldo and his goals Milan couldnt make the CL for that next season. Even when Kaka was the most focal point of Milan Inzaghi, Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso and Nesta had big parts in that CL champion. I might see some similiarity in it but not even close to be compared. You say people exaggerated, I say its true and apply to all stars including Pele. But you say Maradona at Napoli was overated I say not but it was over achievment with amount of tools he had in hand. Something that I think no other player came even close to that statue.

 

[CHOBEHSAFT]

PELE YADET BASHEH

DAIE SARVARETEH

PELE NEEDS TO STFU , WHEN he has 109 goal like ali daie then he can talk...if daie said some thing about messi , since he is the best forward of all time in nt level then we should lisson, BUT PELE ..NIGGA PLEASE......

 

[byebyenow]

Kaz I missed ur post somehow, but yeah maybe the example of Cavani is not that good. But I was comparing this Napoli which is not rich, it is the different owner, the one who brought the team from Serie D to CL knockout stages. These Napoli cant spend money all their stars came pre cheap. Lavezzi and Hamsik been with them more than five years now. The early Napoli owner spent much more than these Napoli. In early 80s SerieA was struggling through scandal but it led to many teams invest huge money for foreign players, Napoli had to keep up. Napoli felt the improvement of many Serie A teams which almost cost Napoli in Serie B thats why they went out spend on Maradona. But not these Napoli.
I just wanna say this and that is that Napoli had made top table many times before and last year showed they still can but never won the scudetto without Maradona in their whole history and not just some random year but in the most competitive time of Serie A history. Maybe it was even harder to win the CL, I dont know.

 

[Khorus]

Here we go again.... Pele opened his mouth again and stirred the pot!! He occasionally says idiotic things, but in this case, he is really difficult to contradict. We all know Messi is a great player, but to be compared to the greatest ever players (plural, since I know that will start another conversation about who is #1), he has to do more, a lot more. As I have said, time and again, a great deal of Messi's success is due to the great club he is playing for. Frankly, Barcelona is making Messi look great, rather than the other way around. We will definitely have to see a lot more from Messi at the WC (and other national level competitions) to start putting him in the top 10 (or even 20) greatest ever list.

 

[CHOBEHSAFT]

MESSI RIGHT NOW CRACKS THE TOP 20 OF ALL TIME..

WE COULD ARGUE messi is the greatest club player ever....but messi needs to win the wc to crack top 3..

right now top 3 are
maradona
pele
zidane

 

[CHOBEHSAFT]

sorry
0 daie
1 maradona
2 pele
3 zidan
4 abbas kargar
5.pelatini

 

[Dr Strangemoosh]

1. Daei
2. Bavi
3. Mikilaka
4. Azzizz
5. Pelatini
6. Estevie Vunder

 

[Lover]

Messi and CR9 are failures at the international level but they have time to pass Pele...let's watch.

 

[CHOBEHSAFT]

NO ONE WI PASS PELE IN NT LEVEL...NO ONE WILL EVER WIN 3 WC

 

[Mahdi]

Messi is week in week out the best player in the world on a level above anyone else by miles at a time when more people play football than ever before hence the competition should be highest. Pretty irrelevant what he wins, in his era he's the greatest and his difference to his peers his way higher than any other players difference to their peers. Make him whatever you want, but in this era, the World Cup is irrelevant and only Champions League football matters. Seriously, it's like calling an album a flop because it doesn't win a Grammy as if a Grammy has anything to say today

 

[Real Madrid]

 

[Niloufar]

hehe!))) vay 40 sale digaro nagu, I think I'll get depression when he retires 10-15 yrs from now..

 

[Payandeh Iran]

hehe!))) vay 40 sale digaro nagu, I think I'll get depression when he retires 10-15 yrs from now..

At least you'll be around to see him retire. Man keh taa oon moghe righ rahmat ro sar keshidam.

 

[Niloufar]

At least you'll be around to see him retire. Man keh taa oon moghe righ rahmat ro sar keshidam.

whattt?! zabuneto gaz begir Nader jan! we need to 30 u healthy and upbeat for the next 50 years at least. If Janati can celebrate his 85th BD, Ferguson his 70th, so can you!

 

[Payandeh Iran]

whattt?! zabuneto gaz begir Nader jan! we need to 30 u healthy and upbeat for the next 50 years at least. If Janati can celebrate his 85th BD, Ferguson his 70th, so can you!

hala dastet be jaam nemireseh gir midi be Agh Alex?

 

[Niloufar]

hala dastet be jaam nemireseh gir midi be Agh Alex?

loool,eybaba man gir nadadam! khastam omid bedam! negaran nabash un donya khabari nist, jahanamie baraye ManU fans!(Angels dont like hooligans!lol) I think ur safer to stay here!

 

[kasra1930]

http://www.espnstar.com/.../valdano..../valdano-messi-noy-yet-in-maradona-class/</a>