San Marco, from saint to public enemy: the Dutch Hypocrisy

Bijan

Bench Warmer
Apr 18, 2004
667
0
#1
San Marco, from saint to public enemy: the Dutch hypocrisy


The Dutch branch is one of the most renowned schools of football throughout the world. Its status is not solely due to the upbringing of illustrious players in the likes of the great Cruyff, Van Basten, Gullit, Rijkkaard and many more, neither does Holland take a special place in the heart of the game only because of its breath taking football in ’74 and ‘78. What makes their school of football “Dutch” is their 4-3-3 system.

This system, in the words of Cruyff, ‘allows maximum field occupation’, and its emphasis is on three aspects: ball possession, ball circulation and the best use of space. By an even occupation over the wings and the middle of the pitch, the team threats to break out from every possible position. In post-modern football, in which the backs are an essential part of the attacking strategy of teams playing 4-4-2, it means crippling the opponents by freezing their backs. Furthermore, it means closing down as much as possible space for the opponent by having players present in all areas. This all is meant to, and if carried out well it will lead to, controlling the opponent and the opportunity to regain the possession over the ball as soon as possible.

When being in possession over the ball, it requires minimum movement of players to realize a situation of maximum possible triangles. The reason for it is that the player holding the ball has maximum delivery options. For example, when the left midfielders holds the ball, he could pass it to the left winger, to the centre forward, to the central midfielder, to the central defender or to the left back; these players are all situated from 15 to 20 metres from him as this system requires that there is a maximum distance of fifteen metres between the each line. Therefore, the ideal length of the team is 35 to 45 metres. The point being made is that due to the maximum delivery options situation, the ball can circulate quickly and over ground. Therefore, a change from wing to wing, a penetration through the same wing, or through the middle, is a matter of minimum passes, if carried out quickly and justly.

This brings us to the third virtue: the best use of space. As it has become clear, the use of space is central to this concept. Not only it obligates the backs to man-mark forwards, it also enables the team to create maximum playing possibilities with minimum effort. Whilst a winger in the 4-4-2 system has to cover 60 metres from a defending position to an attacking one, in 4-3-3 the winger runs about 30 metres. It also creates space between the backs and the central defenders, as the backs are strictly limited to the wings.

This basic tactical, and for some readers perhaps boring, discussion of the 4-3-3 system is essential in explaining my points in this writing. First is that the likes of Cruyff, Van Basten and Gullit do not take their status in the game solely on the basis of their extraordinary techniques and physiques, but a large portion of this merit is thanks to their unique tactical understanding of team play and use of space. The foundation and the sharpening of this tactical brilliance roots back to the Dutch school of 4-3-3. The very same goes for their total football, which in the foremost place was tactical genius. The Dutch football tams of 74 and 78 would not have been remembered in the same way had it not been for the 4-3-3.

The second point which I want to make is that after having won the European Cup in 1988, Dutch football has known one sole achievement which spoke of dominance: the CL trophy won by Ajax in the mid nineties. The national team, however, played a 4-4-2 system throughout the 90’s and did not win one sole tournament, neither did it manage to reach to the final. The golden Ajax generation that conquered Europe with 4-3-3 was to be named the “just-too-short-generation” in the national team. In this period, going along with the ‘globalization’ of football, many Dutch teams, professional as well as amateur ones, chose for the 4-4-2 system.

It was then that Cruyff started the prophecy of the disasterous future of Dutch football; he had noted the shift away from the 4-4-2 and warned for jeopardizing the very fundaments of Dutch football. He noted that the Dutch educational system, which had always been based on 4-3-3 and in which basic technique played an essential part, neglected these aspects and focused on physical strength and long balls. In Cruyff’s vision, the tactical brilliance that was the hallmark of their school was being destroyed. While respecting his view, nobody really considered his doom scenario. That is until Holland failed to qualify for WC’02 which was a national disaster. From that point, people, and especially the KNVB (the Dutch football association) started to carefully listen to what Cruyff had to say. After the semi-final loss against Portugal, the weak status of Dutch clubs in Europe and the irritating elite-like behaviour of their internationals, the KNVB went to Cruyff for advice. His advice was simple: we don’t have the fighting spirit of the English, the consistency of the Germans, the cleverness of the Italians or the infinite pool of talent of the Argentineans and the Brazilians. What we do have is a unique tradition of tactical perfection. And we need to go back to those roots, that is what makes us distinct, that is what makes our football Dutch. And it is there where our strength lies. This is the third point that I wanted to make: the KNVB decided to fall back on 4-3-3 under the motto “we haven’t been able to won anything with the 4-4-2 so we can just as well profile ourselves with our own system”. Cruyff advised the KNVB to consider Van Basten for the job, who had kept himself away from football for ten years then, as in Cruyff’s vision he had the character and the genius to do it. And above all, the guts to throw everything around.

And that is exactly what Van Basten did. The veterans, with the exception if a few, were put aside and he welcomed man newcomers. He strictly chose for the 4-3-3 system and said that his goal was to play “attacking, attractive and dominant” football. His new approach and the new national team became accessible to every player who played well, regardless of their name. This created an accessible image for the public as well, as the national team did no longer belong to those select footballers that every coach had chosen in the past ten years. He gave the national team back to the folks, and due to his status as the player that he was, and his relaxed relation with the media, he gained a lot of credit with the public. Since he had changed everything and started to build a new team of a new generation of footballers, the evaluation date by the KNVB was set for Euro ’08. Qualifying for WC’06 was seen as an extra bonus, but not a must. He realised the easiest qualification in Dutch history however, and Holland survived the group of death, portraying decent performances.


The turning point, however, was the 1/8th final against Portugal. In a life or death battle, in which the experienced and clever Portuguese frustrated the young Dutch footballers and got them totally of concentration, Holland lost and Van Basten’s declarations that we should understand that we don’t have the quality depth that teams like Argentina, Brazil and Italy have nor the experience and mentality like the Germans, alongside him giving a 7 on a scale of 1 tot 10 to his own coaching, irritated the people. Extra oil on the fire was his decisions to send Van Nistelrooy and Van Bommel in exile: he didn’t call them up for the friendly games following the WC and hadn’t called them for an explanation. They went to the media and it became a national matter. Van Basten declared that he didn’t have to treat the internationals like babies. This added to his already arrogant image. He said that Van Bommel neglected his defensive duties, which was Van Basten’s critique prior to the WC as well, and that Van Nistelrooy lacks the proper technique to function as the central forward in the 4-3-3 (in this system, unlike the 4-4-2, a lot more participation and ball circulation is expected form the central forward). In his defence, it was Maniche, Van Bommel’s direct opponent, who walked away from Van Bommel’s back and was totally unmarked when he received and shot the ball in the goal. The winning 1-0! And as far as Van Nistelrooy is concerned, he is a natural finisher, but he is not exactly Maradona’s twin.

Van Nistelrooy was eventually called up again due to his high scoring rate at Real, and after a bit of wining and playing hard to get, he returned. So did Seedorf. And Holland kept on winning, though not by spectacular games, and easily qualified for the European Cup.

Meanwhile, Van Basten has turned into public enemy number one of the Dutch, a nation that in this way expresses their national hypocrisy when it comes to football. Before Van Basten, during the 4-4-2 period, the national team was criticized for being the collection of a bunch of individualists, that it formed no team, and that it had a hard time qualifying. The results were poor. Well, if anything, Van Basten has put together a team that walks through fire for each other, that is eager to win, that is hungry and that is humble. Their collectivistic attitude would make the likes of Marx jealous.

Now they say that it is the 4-3-3 system that doesn’t function well and blame him for holding on to it too tightly. Yet, the very purpose of him being appointed was to revive the Dutch school of football. Then they argue about why he puts a right footed player on left and vice versa. The reason for it is simple: Robben is injured and so is Van Persie (the left footed right winger that does operate well on right). This leaves Van Basten with no quality wingers. In order to add an extra surprising element to their game, he puts a left footer on right, so that his direct opponent does not know whether he will go along the line of will cut in and shoot. Besides, the best operating 4-3-3 in the world now is Barcelona, not accidentally also advised by Cruyff, and it is the same situation there: Messi on right, Ronaldinho on left. So it doesn’t necessarily have to be a problem.

Then, after having led 42 matches as head coach he has only lost 4!! The best average of all national coaches in the history of Holland. Two of those losses didn’t even matter as they were friendly games. His team has received 3 goals in this qualification and if they win tomorrow Holland will be the highest seeded team in the tournament, winning the only spot up for grabs as group head.

This is not to say that there is absolutely no short coming to notice. Of course, they only scored 11 goals in 14 matches. It is a low average. The scoring department should be fixed. But then again, against Luxemburg Holland had about 29 shots on goal and scored solely once. And there were at least 4 one-on-ones, and many shots on the 16 which could have had been sealed. At times there were great combinations and spectacular plays. But in the end, the newspapers crucified Van Basten again for boring and unspectacular play and the lack of goals, and so did the public. Well, in the first place, it was definitely not boring or low in quality. Secondly, what can he do? Bench Van Nistelrooy for having missed two one-on-ones? If he does so, then they will all blame him for leaving out their top marksman!

And the most ridiculous claim is that Van Basten does not know what it takes to make a central forward function is his team. The hypocrisy derives from the opinion, shared by the criticasters, that Van Basten is unarguably the best central striker in the history of the game. A genius. According to that notion, it would be illogic to claim that he has no clue about the needs are for a striker to function well!

Through all this critique, which has seen Marco van Basten become form hero to public enemy, Johan Cruyff’s unconditional support for him and the 4-3-3 plays a central role. People have got tired of him too! While a couple of years ago there was a national saying “Cruyff is always right”, now people publicly say that he doesn’t know where he is talking about and that he is a weak analyst. That is a hypocrite remark about arguably the world’s most intelligent football player in history. And as a coach, whose main instrument is analysing, he led arguably the most attractive playing club-side ever, Barcelona of ’94.

Much of this critique is shared by the international media. But you can’t expect much from them. First, many of them really don’t have a clue of what they actually are typing. Second, they are mostly followers; if somebody shouts something, they will simply echo it. Third, they do not know the ins and outs of the discussion and situation I described above.

The disappointment I am experiencing regards the Dutch public. Their expectations always immensely high, as they not only want to win, but they want to do it in the most beautiful way. There is nothing wrong with wanting that, but a realistic evaluation would not be out of place, since nobody winning the World/European Cup in the past decade and a half has done it with a great offensive style. They seem such hypocrites: they want change, but don’t give time for it; they know the reasons for Van Basten’s appointment, but act like they have forgotten; they say he is a genius, but try to understand him; they remember booing Seedorf until 2004, but sympathise him when Van Basten doesn’t select him; they act like Van Bommel is better than Deco, Sneijder better than Pirlo, Van persie better than Messi, Van Nistelrooy better than…anybody; Seedorf better than Kaka!!

And themselves higher football geniuses than Van Basten.
 
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westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
Oct 18, 2002
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Av. Aristide Maillol, BCN
#2
excellent article my friend! excellent!!!

I'm having this discussion with someone else through PMs right now. This Dutch team lacks the talent, the quality, the stars, the everything. The only way for them to win ANYTHING is by playing as a compact unit and this is what they do. This unity could take them the longest at the Euro, but still the media simply acts as if this Dutch team is the chosen one by God and they want the youth coach, who won a U-21 tournament that nobody really cares for, as head coach. The fact that Hollywood Royston was player of the tournament, speaks a lot.
Netherlands doesn't have ONE single decent defender any bigger club would care to sign, yet they have only conceeded 3 goals. The fact that with half a week of preparation for national teams you can't go out and beat any team defending with 11 with 4-0, because you lack automatisms, is also something barely few understand.
Marco is on the right way...to me he is like Michael Corleone. If he can't help the dutch, no one else can.
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#3
football is a funny game especially in Holland's case. a country that is so advanced in its football system producing the best players, tactics and overall system hasn't or doesn't use its best resources.

I dont know what they are trying to achieve with Van Basten, I really dont. They were nothing special in the world cup and refused to use players such as Van Nisteruuy in crucial moments. Surely Ruud being the master goal poacher could have pulled one back againts Portugal instead of that useless Kuyt.

Another thing we saw how well Guus did in this reigns with S.Korea in 02 taking them to fourth place when his native Holland hadn't even qualified or in 06 when he took Australia to their first world cup after 32 years and takes them to the second round only to lose to Italy by the narrowest of margins.

It makes you wonder what he (Guus) would do now with Holland with so much talent at his disposal. So when westi says 'If he can't help the dutch, no one else can' he is talking nonsense!! Its like having a stihl chainsaw to cut down a tree but instead opting to use an axe. Sure they both get the job done , but how do you want to get the job done?

So in this aspect I dont understand modern day football and I think capitalism and the ridiculous amount of money have damaged the game . You can say that it has taken the 'pride' out of the game . When Brazil is not able to use Scolari or Holland with Guus or Mourinho for Portugal you wonder why?!

Maybe it is an experimental thing I dont know but I can tell you that Holland wont do shit at next years euro2008. Their team lacks character and leadership.
 

westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
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#4
It makes you wonder what he (Guus) would do now with Holland with so much talent at his disposal. So when westi says 'If he can't help the dutch, no one else can' he is talking nonsense!! Its like having a stihl chainsaw to cut down a tree but instead opting to use an axe. Sure they both get the job done , but how do you want to get the job done?

Could you please mention 1 dutch defender playing at a big club, 1 defensive midfield and anyone but Sneijder, Ruud or Van Persie playing for a big club? (Robben doesn't count, since he doesn't really play..hehehehee) Then we might evaluate "this talented dutch team".Thanks!

Guus Hiddink?? The same Guus Hiddink who failed to qualify with Russia?? Are we talking about the same person or is there another Guus Hiddink somewhere?
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#5
Could you please mention 1 dutch defender playing at a big club, 1 defensive midfield and anyone but Sneijder, Ruud or Van Persie playing for a big club? (Robben doesn't count, since he doesn't really play..hehehehee) Then we might evaluate "this talented dutch team".Thanks!

Guus Hiddink?? The same Guus Hiddink who failed to qualify with Russia?? Are we talking about the same person or is there another Guus Hiddink somewhere?
this team is one of the most talented teams in europe. It is young , athletic and skilled.

OK sure they dont have big name defenders and defensive midfielders, but so what?!! Everyone knows big name players dont always win tournaments.
Do you remember the reigning champions;)? And I consider Babel another great player playing for a big club.

Other than that it has talents left right and center in offence. Just take a look at this:

---------------------------RVD

-------Babel-------------------------Van Persie

-------Sneijder--------------------Van Der Vaart

----------------------Van Bommel (since you are obsessed with big name clubs:D)

Now you would be blind to or in denial to tell me that is not talented.

Guus Hiddink is a master tactician, a legend in Korea, Australia and Holland. Now can you tell me what was Hollands last best result at a world cup was besides not qualifying and first round exit?!! So it is fair to say that he is the best dutch coach in the last 20 years.
 

westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
Oct 18, 2002
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#6
this team is one of the most talented teams in europe. It is young , athletic and skilled.

That's the point...it is NOT!

OK sure they dont have big name defenders and defensive midfielders, but so what?!! Everyone knows big name players dont always win tournaments.
It's a matter of having quality or not. even that Greek team was the most talented greek team in history. At the Euro, the dynamics of a tournament took place.

Do you remember the reigning champions;)? And I consider Babel another great player playing for a big club.
He doesn't really play. He warms the bench more.

Other than that it has talents left right and center in offence. Just take a look at this:

---------------------------RVD

-------Babel-------------------------Van Persie

-------Sneijder--------------------Van Der Vaart

----------------------Van Bommel (since you are obsessed with big name clubs:D)
Nice try, but that's all about it. Van Bommel is not a defensive midfield. If you play that midfield against anyone, you will be run over. Try Maduro, De Zeeuw or anyone else there instead.


Now you would be blind to or in denial to tell me that is not talented.


No, I'm realistic and compare it with other teams. That team is neither great nor talented nor anything else. It's just average. If you had read the article, you would know better.

Guus Hiddink is a master tactician, a legend in Korea, Australia and Holland. Now can you tell me what was Hollands last best result at a world cup was besides not qualifying and first round exit?!! So it is fair to say that he is the best dutch coach in the last 20 years.
And he failed with Russia to qualify, your point is?
Do you understand the fact that Hiddink failed to qualify with Russia or not?? If you don't understand it, I can't help you either. Go and pick the bricks.
 

xoraster

IPL Player
Oct 21, 2002
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#7
Nice article.

If Holland dont stick to what they can and know, they willjust be another Belgium or Denmark. European nobodies.
All the best to San Marco.
 
Sep 25, 2005
2,966
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#8
That's the point...it is NOT!



It's a matter of having quality or not. even that Greek team was the most talented greek team in history. At the Euro, the dynamics of a tournament took place.



He doesn't really play. He warms the bench more.



Nice try, but that's all about it. Van Bommel is not a defensive midfield. If you play that midfield against anyone, you will be run over. Try Maduro, De Zeeuw or anyone else there instead.




No, I'm realistic and compare it with other teams. That team is neither great nor talented nor anything else. It's just average. If you had read the article, you would know better.
[/b]


And he failed with Russia to qualify, your point is?
Do you understand the fact that Hiddink failed to qualify with Russia or not?? If you don't understand it, I can't help you either. Go and pick the bricks.
Man you took a long time to reply, you must have gave it some serious thought

If you call this team average then Cote D' Ivoire is average and Greece is shit. I dont know what teams you are comparing Holland to but I cant see others being much better other than Brazil , Argentina, France, Italy, Spain and maybe Portugal.

I would actually play Landzaat in DM position or De Jong but since you were looking for players in big clubs I thought that Van Bommel would best fit your description.

With the right management I believe that this team can go far, someone like Hiddink would be ideal. With the transformation he made out of the socceroos I dont see why he wouldn't be able to do 5x better with this team.

Guus had a tough group this time round England ,Croatia is never easy. And the Israeli's showing great improvement. However I gaurantee you they will make the WC.
I think you fail to aknowledge what this man has achieved and the miracles he has worked. Not many managers can get S.Korea to beat Italy at a world cup.
 

Bijan

Bench Warmer
Apr 18, 2004
667
0
#9
Westi, I'm glad you liked it. It was a very long piece, but I wanted to make sure that it needs no extra explanation. Yet, there are some who either don't read the piece in its entirety, or.. I don't know. I let the others be the judge of that.

Anyway, dear wallah weghber, you said that you simply can't undrstand what they want to achieve with Van Basten. As I explained in detail in the first post, which you may have not read completely, the KNVB decided to go back to the roots of the Dutch school of football. The reason for that was the lack of dominance in club football and the national team. With the 4-4-2 system, Holland had not only failed to capitalise on an excellent generation of footballers (surely better than the contemporary one), but their performances were really starting to wprry everybody. After Ajax' CL win in 1995, which was accomplished by the 4-3-3 system, not one Dutch club had an acual chance of winning the CL. PSV did make it the semi's once, but no one really saw them as an authority. In addition, Holland hadn't qualified for WC'02, while Van Gaal had already been so chique to make the hotel reservations in Korea in advance, and failed to deliver at Euro'04, again with "big", established names in the squad. The likes of F. De Boer, Davids, Seedorf, Van Nistelrooy, Vd Sar, Van Bommel, Stam, Van Bronckhorst..and many more sorry faces. If it hadn't been for Robben playing a great tournament, they wouldn't have made it in the semi's anyway. In that tournament, they were totally outclassed by both the Checks and the Portueguees.

This led the KNVB to go to Cruyff for some advice; the same Cruyff that had been sketching this doomscenario for over a decade ago. Cruyff advised the KNVB to get back to 4-3-3, to go back to the roots, to start with other, younger players and to invest in the youth. He did warn them however that such dramatic turnaround from strategy will take time and will have its costs in the short run, but will solely benefit them in the long run.

So Van Basten was appointed with the mission to revive 4-3-3, to bring a realistic, humble view to the national squad, and start seeing their real position in the world of football: a long way from the top.

He has done so, and he has done it like nobody else could have done: 42 games, 4 losses, 2 of which that mattered. Top seeded european squad in world rankings, and probably group head at the Euro next summer. They did this conceding solely three goals, and as Westi very rightfully said without not one defender of international status. Of course, they didn't play very attractively, but also that from my point of view is an exaggeration. Against Luxemburg they created a lot of chances, but it were the players, like your Mr.-he-surely-would-have-scored-one-against-portugal-Van Nistelrooy, who missed those chances. Ruud the Nerd missed two one-on-ones, and seemed to think: "can anybody please shoot the ball against my feet so that it becomes a goal...just like my team mates did against Lazio two months ago?!?!"

Apart from the jokes, Ruud indeed is an established goal scorer. But his technical abilities and his participation in ball circulation are way below average. That explains Cruyff's declaration that "he is a great goal scorer, but a below-average footballer". Therefore, he is not very suited for the central forward position, he needs a guy like Raul, who can play ball, next to him. Just like Inzaghi needed Sheva.

And if you think: well...then play 4-4-2 with Van persie next to him! I already explained the motives to play 4-3-3, besides the fact that it gives you the best use of space and it pins down the opponents' backs. Maybe this clarifies for many why Hollanbd concedes only three goals in this qualification, and four during the WC qualification. So during 33 qualifying games, they conceded only 7 goals and lose solely once! Not bad huh? For more explanation on the benefits of the 4-3-3, do read my first posts and if you want to get into discussion, do it on the bases of my arguments there.

As far as Seedorf and Van Bommel are concerned: a system of three midfielders means a lot of responsibilties and the ability to play quickly and smartly. Van Bommel does not qualify for the first as he lets loose of his man too much. Seedorf is best suited for a 4 or 5 midfielders system, like he plays in Milan. He of course is a good player, and when having his day he can be quite creative. But fact is and remains that he holds on to the ball too much. His decision taking takes simply too long, and slows down the game. Then, he also wants to play on the central midfielder position. Now, who would you rather have there as playmaker: Sneijder or Seedorf?

About Babel I won't even start discussing, as he really does not have what it takes. He is selected rather because the lack of better, than due to his virtues.

And Guus Hiddink, I too find him a great coach. Only fact remains that he failed with Holland at Euro'96 and WC'98. And he had an established, internationally renowned generation at his disposal, hadn't he? The entire Ajax team that won the CL had hit peak under his spell, yet they went to QF at Euro and Semi at '98. And he had Bergkamp on his best. And, he probably won't qualify Russia...
 

Bijan

Bench Warmer
Apr 18, 2004
667
0
#10
Westi, I'm glad you liked it. It was a very long piece, but I wanted to make sure that it needs no extra explanation. Yet, there are some who either don't read the piece in its entirety, or.. I don't know. I let the others be the judge of that.

Anyway, dear wallah weghber, you said that you simply can't undrstand what they want to achieve with Van Basten. As I explained in detail in the first post, which you may have not read completely, the KNVB decided to go back to the roots of the Dutch school of football. The reason for that was the lack of dominance in club football and the national team. With the 4-4-2 system, Holland had not only failed to capitalise on an excellent generation of footballers (surely better than the contemporary one), but their performances were really starting to wprry everybody. After Ajax' CL win in 1995, which was accomplished by the 4-3-3 system, not one Dutch club had an acual chance of winning the CL. PSV did make it the semi's once, but no one really saw them as an authority. In addition, Holland hadn't qualified for WC'02, while Van Gaal had already been so chique to make the hotel reservations in Korea in advance, and failed to deliver at Euro'04, again with "big", established names in the squad. The likes of F. De Boer, Davids, Seedorf, Van Nistelrooy, Vd Sar, Van Bommel, Stam, Van Bronckhorst..and many more sorry faces. If it hadn't been for Robben playing a great tournament, they wouldn't have made it in the semi's anyway. In that tournament, they were totally outclassed by both the Checks and the Portueguees.

This led the KNVB to go to Cruyff for some advice; the same Cruyff that had been sketching this doomscenario for over a decade ago. Cruyff advised the KNVB to get back to 4-3-3, to go back to the roots, to start with other, younger players and to invest in the youth. He did warn them however that such dramatic turnaround from strategy will take time and will have its costs in the short run, but will solely benefit them in the long run.

So Van Basten was appointed with the mission to revive 4-3-3, to bring a realistic, humble view to the national squad, and start seeing their real position in the world of football: a long way from the top.

He has done so, and he has done it like nobody else could have done: 42 games, 4 losses, 2 of which that mattered. Top seeded european squad in world rankings, and probably group head at the Euro next summer. They did this conceding solely three goals, and as Westi very rightfully said without not one defender of international status. Of course, they didn't play very attractively, but also that from my point of view is an exaggeration. Against Luxemburg they created a lot of chances, but it were the players, like your Mr.-he-surely-would-have-scored-one-against-portugal-Van Nistelrooy, who missed those chances. Ruud the Nerd missed two one-on-ones, and seemed to think: "can anybody please shoot the ball against my feet so that it becomes a goal...just like my team mates did against Lazio two months ago?!?!"

Apart from the jokes, Ruud indeed is an established goal scorer. But his technical abilities and his participation in ball circulation are way below average. That explains Cruyff's declaration that "he is a great goal scorer, but a below-average footballer". Therefore, he is not very suited for the central forward position, he needs a guy like Raul, who can play ball, next to him. Just like Inzaghi needed Sheva.

And if you think: well...then play 4-4-2 with Van persie next to him! I already explained the motives to play 4-3-3, besides the fact that it gives you the best use of space and it pins down the opponents' backs. Maybe this clarifies for many why Hollanbd concedes only three goals in this qualification, and four during the WC qualification. So during 33 qualifying games, they conceded only 7 goals and lose solely once! Not bad huh? For more explanation on the benefits of the 4-3-3, do read my first posts and if you want to get into discussion, do it on the bases of my arguments there.

As far as Seedorf and Van Bommel are concerned: a system of three midfielders means a lot of responsibilties and the ability to play quickly and smartly. Van Bommel does not qualify for the first as he lets loose of his man too much. Seedorf is best suited for a 4 or 5 midfielders system, like he plays in Milan. He of course is a good player, and when having his day he can be quite creative. But fact is and remains that he holds on to the ball too much. His decision taking takes simply too long, and slows down the game. Then, he also wants to play on the central midfielder position. Now, who would you rather have there as playmaker: Sneijder or Seedorf?

About Babel I won't even start discussing, as he really does not have what it takes. He is selected rather because the lack of better, than due to his virtues.

And Guus Hiddink, I too find him a great coach. Only fact remains that he failed with Holland at Euro'96 and WC'98. And he had an established, internationally renowned generation at his disposal, hadn't he? The entire Ajax team that won the CL had hit peak under his spell, yet they went to QF at Euro and Semi at '98. And he had Bergkamp on his best. And, he probably won't qualify Russia...
 

westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
Oct 18, 2002
36,645
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Av. Aristide Maillol, BCN
#11
And Guus Hiddink, I too find him a great coach. Only fact remains that he failed with Holland at Euro'96 and WC'98. And he had an established, internationally renowned generation at his disposal, hadn't he? The entire Ajax team that won the CL had hit peak under his spell, yet they went to QF at Euro and Semi at '98. And he had Bergkamp on his best. And, he probably won't qualify Russia...
exactly..he had the best generation of all, and despite being a great coach, he couldn't really deliver either, although 4th place and best football of the tournament was an achievement. second best was rijkaard btw. to me his team probably played the best football since and Euro2000 should have been theirs, if it wasn't for penalties. That game was a shame.

Man you took a long time to reply, you must have gave it some serious thought
It took me 4 minutes actually.

If you call this team average then Cote D' Ivoire is average and Greece is shit. I dont know what teams you are comparing Holland to but I cant see others being much better other than Brazil , Argentina, France, Italy, Spain and maybe Portugal.
Cote D'Ivoire has 2 defenders at a great club, a defensive midfield Holland can only dream of, and a pretty good attacking line too. And Germany, and England, and....

I would actually play Landzaat in DM position or De Jong but since you were looking for players in big clubs I thought that Van Bommel would best fit your description.
Because he is a DM, no?? :D

With the right management I believe that this team can go far, someone like Hiddink would be ideal. With the transformation he made out of the socceroos I dont see why he wouldn't be able to do 5x better with this team.
Because there's not much left to make better

Guus had a tough group this time round England ,Croatia is never easy. And the Israeli's showing great improvement. However I gaurantee you they will make the WC.
I think you fail to aknowledge what this man has achieved and the miracles he has worked. Not many managers can get S.Korea to beat Italy at a world cup.
Farkinhell, why are you so thick? The point was that even Guss "Mr.MiracleGod" Hiddink failed to qualify with Russia. You might want to check it out again, but the Russian league is about 3 times as good as the dutch league and Hiddink picked his players from that league, while Van Basten mainly picks from the Dutch League, yet Hiddink failed to qualify with that team. What makes you believe that he would have qualified with the Netherlands?
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#12
Guus Hiddink?? The same Guus Hiddink who failed to qualify with Russia?? Are we talking about the same person or is there another Guus Hiddink somewhere?
Yeah, I think you're going to lose the argument with that one. Marco Van Basten is hardly the greatest coach in the world and should not be compared to Guus Hiddink as a coach. We're talking about same Guus Hiddink who would bring in talent from everywhere, lose it every year to poachers and still bring a strong PSV to the CL.

I agree that Holland isn't as strong as people expect it to be, but then again the statement that no one else could do better, or as well as San Marco, is pushing it.
 

Kaesra

Bench Warmer
May 29, 2006
2,014
0
Holland
#13
Nice article and a good view of situations

The dutch public will always stay like this , you cant please them . Leo beenhakker said recently in an interview that he wouldn't want to work in Holland anymore bc of the fact that it is never good whatever they do . He also praised marco and said that what he is doing with this team is unique .

I personnaly have other objections at the 4-3-3 system , I think it should be the first formation oranje should use , but when you don't have the people to play that system with then you should have another system to fall back on. Only the last two matches marco has done this but he still doesn't want to call it a 4-4-2 , He calls it a 2-4-4 or a 4-2-4 but not a 4-4-2. I don't know what you guys think but putting van der vaart at rightwing in a 4-3-3 system isn't genius but stupid especially when you have tried it before and it hasn't worked. With this he actually is admitting that there arent the players to play the 4-3-3 system with , Don't get me wrong I think they should play 4-3-3 but when Van persie and robben are injured and you don't have other good options for both Lw and Rw you shouldn't play 4-3-3 . Also you guys yourself admitt that there aren't any good top level Defenders , well don't forget the Central defenders in the dutch 4-3-3 system always where very very important people who could move up a line and create the needed extra man . Oranje doesn't have such a player ; the best one they have that can do something like this is Ooijer and we know that he aint no De boer or someone like that .

And don't you guys be too hard on Guus , I mean I don't even think his / Russias main objective was qualifying for the European C '08 but for The World Cup 2010 ( its not only what I think It's what they said )and the way I see it he has 2/3 more Years to do that and he has already improved this team greatly. And didn't the article say that Van basten's task was'nt Playing well in /Qualifying for The World cup 06 but the Ec 08 so aren't you being a tad hypocrite yourselfs by saying Guus hasn't done a good Job ??!? I mean FUcking up a WC for Oranje or Not qualifying for EC 08 with Russia when they should be even at level yet , wich of the two is worse , You chose.

And you guys say he didn't qualify for the EC 08 , well the game England-Croatia hasn't ended nor started so you are jumping to conlusions.


And Btw Bijan you are saying Babel does not have what it takes and that he is selected rather because the lack of better, than due to his virtues. I am sorry but than you haven't paid much attention to Marco the saint and Genius because Babel is Marco's favorite / Lievelingetje ( He even had extra training only with babel and he has praised him on many occasions and they know each other from ajax youth and he is always with the selection)and according to you Marco knows what a good striker is so what are you saying that babel isn't a good striker and that Marco is wrong about him ?

Van Basten should just come out and say he isn't for the Beautiful football , but that he plays Italian football . Result is most Important . Than people wouldn't be so hard on him , but the guy promised good / beautiful and Dominant football and did not dilliver so people start to talk . It's his own fault thats how I see it .

PS Its such a shame Cruyf never was dutch bondscoach , I think it's bc of Rinus he didn't want his student surpassing him so he told/recommended the KNVB (Dont know if it was named this also back then ) to chose other Managers . I think he could have done a wonderfull job.
 
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westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
Oct 18, 2002
36,645
1
41
Av. Aristide Maillol, BCN
#14
Yeah, I think you're going to lose the argument with that one. Marco Van Basten is hardly the greatest coach in the world and should not be compared to Guus Hiddink as a coach. We're talking about same Guus Hiddink who would bring in talent from everywhere, lose it every year to poachers and still bring a strong PSV to the CL.

I agree that Holland isn't as strong as people expect it to be, but then again the statement that no one else could do better, or as well as San Marco, is pushing it.

That's not the point..

the point is that given Guus recent failure, there's no way anyone could guarantee that he would do much better with this team. Also, before Guus had WC98, he had Euro96, when half of the team did whatever it liked to do and there were tensions inside the squad. Van Basten's main job is to keep fractions out and let them play as a team and that's his biggest task so far.
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
#15
That's not the point..

the point is that given Guus recent failure, there's no way anyone could guarantee that he would do much better with this team. Also, before Guus had WC98, he had Euro96, when half of the team did whatever it liked to do and there were tensions inside the squad. Van Basten's main job is to keep fractions out and let them play as a team and that's his biggest task so far.
I think you're essentially comparing these two things unequally. For Guus to have made them to qualify, in itself, would have been a big effort. The fact is that he took them to the last hurdle, and the players had their chance to take it all - they didn't. So, to put it so simply is just denying the fact that he did do a great job for them and made them look half-decent.

Neither is a guarantee, but I'd put my money on Guus before I would Marco.
 

westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
Oct 18, 2002
36,645
1
41
Av. Aristide Maillol, BCN
#16
I think you're essentially comparing these two things unequally. For Guus to have made them to qualify, in itself, would have been a big effort. The fact is that he took them to the last hurdle, and the players had their chance to take it all - they didn't. So, to put it so simply is just denying the fact that he did do a great job for them and made them look half-decent.

Neither is a guarantee, but I'd put my money on Guus before I would Marco.
You can say the same thing about Marco. The fact that he qualified for the World Cup in 2006 by beating Czechs for the first time in 8 years, and his record for 2008 are both pretty good and specially qualifying for 2006 was close to a miracle, at least with that record.

Some people overestimate this Dutch team. The fact is that it's nothing but an average-above average European team with players who believe they are better than they actually are.
 

Kaesra

Bench Warmer
May 29, 2006
2,014
0
Holland
#17
And he failed with Russia to qualify, your point is?
Do you understand the fact that Hiddink failed to qualify with Russia or not?? If you don't understand it, I can't help you either. Go and pick the bricks.

Farkinhell, why are you so thick? The point was that even Guss "Mr.MiracleGod" Hiddink failed to qualify with Russia. You might want to check it out again, but the Russian league is about 3 times as good as the dutch league and Hiddink picked his players from that league, while Van Basten mainly picks from the Dutch League, yet Hiddink failed to qualify with that team. What makes you believe that he would have qualified with the Netherlands?
Westi do you want to get back at this , Now yes or no bc I think Guus did kinda qualify.

And why do you think the eredivisie is that bad , do you watch it ?
 

westwienmaskulin

News Team, ISP Managers Team, ISP Podcast Team
Oct 18, 2002
36,645
1
41
Av. Aristide Maillol, BCN
#18
Westi do you want to get back at this , Now yes or no bc I think Guus did kinda qualify.
well..that's what they call in Spain Floranal! :D

And why do you think the eredivisie is that bad , do you watch it ?
I watch it when I can, but honestly...what's there in the league? The problem is the lack of depth to me and the defenses are at times pretty shambolic. It's not worse than Belgian league, but not that much better either.
I actually like a couple of players, Afelay as an example..but still...that league is simply nothing worth of mention.
 

Kaesra

Bench Warmer
May 29, 2006
2,014
0
Holland
#19
well..that's what they call in Spain Floranal! :D



I watch it when I can, but honestly...what's there in the league? The problem is the lack of depth to me and the defenses are at times pretty shambolic. It's not worse than Belgian league, but not that much better either.
I actually like a couple of players, Afelay as an example..but still...that league is simply nothing worth of mention.
Well the leage isn't that good and I am not saying that it is , but a lot of good players have developped themselfs (Chivu , ibrahimovic ,ronaldo , romario , van persie , sneijder , van der vaart , van nistelrooy ,a lot more dutchmen , Alves , a ton of swedes,norwegians and a lot more especially if you look at the near past say 5/10 years ago )and there is a lot of young talent comming why do you think clubs like manu, arsenal , chelsea etc are stealing those dutch talents from ajax and psv and others . Atleast every year at least one good new player comes out of the eredivisie and that is not something you can say for example the Belgian leage . And the leage gets worse bc teams can buy the players of of them easily. I watch it and can't say it's good but trust me it isn't bad neither. Their is a reason the dutch call their own leage the micky mouse leage but really they arent that bad.
 
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Sep 25, 2005
2,966
0
#20
westi joon russia qualified hahahahahahahah

russia qualified hahaahahahhahaha

you lost this one!

listen u little crack head
i make u feel maskuline.. then make u drop dead
i got the ball holmes you , maybe didn't know
Im grtest im i'm the fastest i messed u up and made u look no show.
this how we goin play two for me and none for yay
and if u talk crack im'all make u pay
seven eight nine homie maybe u dont know me
cos now on ur knees now just about to blow me
dont mess with the guus, cos now u loose goose , just got squirted with juice.
 
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