The Correct Term is "Azari Turk" and not "Azari" Only - Deal with it!

Pahlevoon Nayeb

National Team Player
Oct 17, 2002
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Poshteh Kooh
#41
As for language Pahlevooon, it is true that Persian is our national language and common language.

You need to realize that it is not the same for us Azari Turks as it is for you.
We cherris Persian too and are proud of the culture, don't get me wrong!

However, if someday, say if Pan FARS become so strong like Pan Turkist regime in Turkey and I have to choose between Persian languge and Azari Turkish, I will, with great pain, of course, choose Azari Turkish as my language over Persian language. That is hypothetical, however. I am sure, over the time, patriots like you and many others here, will need only be informed on how important Azari Turkish is for us and how we feel about it and despite all propaganda like nationalistic texts in our school books how proud we are of our mother tongue.

It is our mother tongue and the sweatest thing to my ears. What would you do if someone tells you that your language is not Persian or Iranian but a Semite language?
Agha Referee,

I have a mixed ancestry. The majority of my background is from Guilan, and the other portion from Esfahan. As such, I am well versed in the nuances of being proud of a particular language and sensitivity towards its origins.

As a child growing up in Tehran, I remember the feelings of sorrow washing over me whenever I heard a “Rashti” joke. Later, when I moved to the States, I befriended a young teenager my own age, whose parents just happened to be from two different parts of Azarbaijan. That was well over thirty years ago and our friendship has since morphed into brotherhood. Still, after all these years, my friend never loses an opportunity to speak Turkish whenever the occasion arises. In the process, I have also picked up some Turkish from him as he’s learned some Guilaky from me. So, I am also well versed in how proud Azari Turks are of their language.

As our friends Motori and Ramin have already mentioned, I don’t believe there’s even a remote possibility that Azari Turkish is going to go away anytime soon, nor do the rest of us want it to.

True, the PanFarcism you speak of is a disease on par with, say, fascism and Nazism. But so is Pan Turkism. And, having spent some time in Turkey, let me tell you that the latter is far more prevalent than Pan Farcism is or ever was, even during the height of the Shah’s rule. You only need to compare the relative freedom the Kurds and Azaris enjoy in speaking their language in Iran versus what the Kurds have to endure in Turkey to see the how much larger and more destructive Pan Turkism is.

Given the commonalities in language and culture we Iranians share, beyond ensuring one’s language does not die – say, through speaking it, writing in it, and promoting it – I don’t see what is accomplished by continuously emphasizing that you, as an Azari Turk, feel more affinity to Turkish and that you would choose Turkish over Persian should push come to shove, even after all have already pretty much agreed with you that that would be your inalienable right. Do you not see how I or any other patriot might also see such repeated pronouncement as some sign of greater loyalty to the Turks of Turkey as opposed to the Iranian nation?
 

IranZamin

IPL Player
Feb 17, 2006
3,367
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#42
Referee aziz, again, your comment was not really a joke and more in line with other views you've expressed over the years. Others have responded the same way I did and they read your post with the smiley.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know who you hang out with, aziz, but I honestly don't know anyone who denies the Turkish roots of Azari language!

Ethnically, there are those who consider Azaris a purely persian group who have come to speak a Turkish dialect, and there are other equally misguided factions who insist that Azaris are just Turkish people but Iranian nevertheless. Both sides are only half right.

There is no question that the Azari ancestry includes the Turkic tribes that moved there. But what happened to the non-Turks who were already there for centuries?..Were they all killed?...Did they all move?...Did they vanish?...Has no one moved there since!?...The idea that Iranian Azaris are a homogeneous "Turkic" ethnicity is just as wrong as the notion that they are simply Persians who just happen to speak a different language. As reflected in the language itself, the Azari bloodline contains a mixture of the Turkic immigrants and the non-Turks already there. That's what shapes the rich Azari culture and gives it the unique Iranian flavor. The only problem is you are obsessed with the Turkic part just as some others are with the Persian one. And neither has a reasonable view of the issue.

Most Azaris I've met actually prefer the term Azari to anything else as they consider it a more accurate reference to their heritage.

In the end, this tribalist nonsense, this obsession to prove that "Azaris are Turks" or "Iranians are/aren't Aryan", no matter how well-intentioned, is divisive, trivial, and of service to no one. Especially at a time when much more critical issues are on the table.
 
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Oct 1, 2004
8,122
205
#43
I can assure you Azari language will not die.

A portion of my family are Kurdish. 3 generations back when they moved to Tehran, none of the children born in Tehran learnt how to speak, read or write Kurdish.
Whereas the Azeri families we know, even if they haven't been out of Tehran for 200 years, all their family members can speak as if they don't know any other language.
 

oghabealborz

Elite Member
Feb 18, 2005
15,124
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Strawberry field
#44
However, if someday, say if Pan FARS become so strong like Pan Turkist regime in Turkey and I have to choose between Persian languge and Azari Turkish, I will, with great pain, of course, choose Azari Turkish as my language over Persian language. That is hypothetical, however.
Now you are talking ! to ease that great pain take some pain killers so it wont hurt that much .

If you are looking for sympathy on this site ,I am afraid you wont find much but I am sure there are sites out there such as that wolf thing that will greet you with open arms and give you a pat on the back ....
 
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Mar 13, 2007
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#45
On another note:

Turkish history and Turks from turkey are some of the most uncivilized people that have ever existed! their prolonged crimes against humanity and ironicaly those in their so called golden ottman era - only some 4/500 years ago is astonishing and unmatched ! modern day turks are not much more advanced believe me.

Perhaps the most and biggest systematic state sponsored case of slavery, sex traficking and rape in the history of humanity occured during this golden ottoman era they are so proud of! not to mention the genocides they committed against armenians and some other ethnicities.

Now, no matter how barberic iran's current regime is, one can not argue the incredible impact persians have had in advancing civilisation in every aspect which is only matched by greeks. While one can not even think of one significant turkish scientist, humanist, artist or thinker, pre and post islamic iran is packed with significant innnovators and figures that changed the world for the better.

again I support any azeri or kurdish struggle for independence and even separation as it is their right to do so, but if they calim that they have a rather deeper connection to turkey due to their language than iran than I say they dont know what the hell they are talking about !
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
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Jabolqa Opposite Jabolsa
#46
Now you are talking ! to ease that great pain take some pain killers so it wont hurt that much .

If you are looking for sympathy on this site ,I am afraid you wont find much but I am sure there are sites out there such as that wolf thing that will greet you with open arms and give you a pat on the back ....

Oghab Jaan,

Do you think the hypothetical situation I mentioned is even possible? If so, what would you do if you were in my shoes, ditch your own mother tongue and become Iranian? Do you think, then, Iran is Iran or another monsterous country and culture?

For me, if someday Azari Turkic language dies, Iran had died long before then... Because an Iran without Iranian Azari Turkish language is NOT IRAN...
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
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Jabolqa Opposite Jabolsa
#47
On another note:

Turkish history and Turks from turkey are some of the most uncivilized people that have ever existed! their prolonged crimes against humanity and ironicaly those in their so called golden ottman era - only some 4/500 years ago is astonishing and unmatched ! modern day turks are not much more advanced believe me.

Perhaps the most and biggest systematic state sponsored case of slavery, sex traficking and rape in the history of humanity occured during this golden ottoman era they are so proud of! not to mention the genocides they committed against armenians and some other ethnicities.
That is much debated. Others did similar things. Iranians were not free of those charges either....Even in our golden era of Achaemenid Darius. Just read Darius' own inscription in Behistun.
Anyway this is irrevalent. Today Turks of Turkey speak Turkish, that is a very close language to ours. So there is a connection there.

Afghans and Taliban speaking Iranic languages of Persian and Pashtun too. But does that make any difference in the way we are connected to them culturally and linguistically to Afghans?

Now, no matter how barberic iran's current regime is, one can not argue the incredible impact persians have had in advancing civilisation in every aspect which is only matched by greeks. While one can not even think of one significant turkish scientist, humanist, artist or thinker, pre and post islamic iran is packed with significant innnovators and figures that changed the world for the better.
You forget that Saljukids, Ghaznavids and Safavids were all Turkic, the latter Azari Turkic kingdoms. Do you only give credit to Darius for Babelions, with the official langauge of his empire being Aramaic and not Persian, building Persepolis udner him but taking credit away from Sultan Malekshah Saljukid for Khayyam's calendar and all the things they have done during Saljukids/

again I support any azeri or kurdish struggle for independence and even separation as it is their right to do so, but if they calim that they have a rather deeper connection to turkey due to their language than iran than I say they dont know what the hell they are talking about !
Nobody says we have deeper connection to Turks of Turkey than Iranian. But it is not just a shallow connection, in the same way we have linguistic connections to Afghans and Tajiks.
Of course, we are more Iranians. In fact, I think Iran without Azari Turkish language is not Iran anymore. Iran without Turkic Azari is closer to modern Turkey than Iran we know: a proudly pluralistic and great country. DO NOT KILL Iran and its great culture by trying to take its head out. The head speaks Azari Turkish and without it, it will die and with it the great Iran..

I am not saying Azarbaijan is more important than Gilan or elsewhere. But the day you decide to trying to homogenize the country by killing the cultures of Iran's ethnics and in the name of unity, you are killing Iran, no matter where your target is.
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
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#48
Agha Referee,

I have a mixed ancestry. The majority of my background is from Guilan, and the other portion from Esfahan. As such, I am well versed in the nuances of being proud of a particular language and sensitivity towards its origins.

As a child growing up in Tehran, I remember the feelings of sorrow washing over me whenever I heard a “Rashti” joke. Later, when I moved to the States, I befriended a young teenager my own age, whose parents just happened to be from two different parts of Azarbaijan. That was well over thirty years ago and our friendship has since morphed into brotherhood. Still, after all these years, my friend never loses an opportunity to speak Turkish whenever the occasion arises. In the process, I have also picked up some Turkish from him as he’s learned some Guilaky from me. So, I am also well versed in how proud Azari Turks are of their language.

As our friends Motori and Ramin have already mentioned, I don’t believe there’s even a remote possibility that Azari Turkish is going to go away anytime soon, nor do the rest of us want it to.
Agreed and moved by the post so far!

True, the PanFarcism you speak of is a disease on par with, say, fascism and Nazism. But so is Pan Turkism. And, having spent some time in Turkey, let me tell you that the latter is far more prevalent than Pan Farcism is or ever was, even during the height of the Shah’s rule. You only need to compare the relative freedom the Kurds and Azaris enjoy in speaking their language in Iran versus what the Kurds have to endure in Turkey to see the how much larger and more destructive Pan Turkism is.
Pahlevoon Jaan,

I do not believe in comparisons. We are in Iran and no way we can compare ourselves to Afghanistan, Turkey or some other Arab countries.
We have been a very tolerant and pluralistic culture except when Reza Shah tried to follow Ata Turk's bad model.

So I expect Iran to be Iran and not just better than Turkey!


Given the commonalities in language and culture we Iranians share, beyond ensuring one’s language does not die – say, through speaking it, writing in it, and promoting it – I don’t see what is accomplished by continuously emphasizing that you, as an Azari Turk, feel more affinity to Turkish and that you would choose Turkish over Persian should push come to shove, even after all have already pretty much agreed with you that that would be your inalienable right. Do you not see how I or any other patriot might also see such repeated pronouncement as some sign of greater loyalty to the Turks of Turkey as opposed to the Iranian nation?
I never said I feel closer to Turkey than to Persian speaking Iranians.
However, I am againt discounting the close relations between Turkic speakers of the world and Azari Turks of Iran.
I am not sure if you have listened to Tajik songs or not. I love them because I can relate to them. I love the accent and relate to them. But does that make me a FARS separatist? NO.
In the same way, I love my Turkic heritage. My point here is when a FARS speaking fellow, not knowing anything and listening to rubish of our school history books or likes of Moshiri, start telling me that I am not a Turk as if being a Turk is a really bad and shameful thing. You do not have to go far to see such things. A few members on this board thing that way.

I remember once I posted Darius's own words about cutting nose and poking eyes and a few jumped on me. But when the bogus claims of canabalism of Shah Abbas was posted, everyone though of them as fact of history. The earlier Darius's own inscription on Behistun, the latter a claim. The question is not whether Darius and Shah Abbas were great or not. The question is how we are so pre-disposed of the barbaric image we have from Turks and how we try to glorify everything Persian. That is then reflected in when we deal with a proud Azari or even a Turk. We think how on earth can he proud. Then if he is our beloved countryman we go to lenght to prove his is not really a Turk...

I have thought about this and I always compare Malek Shah Saljukid, Shah Abbas, the Great, and Darius the Great. Similarilties in that they were brutal, their scholars spoke an ethnic language, their court and official and cultural languages were different. You see, for some of us, they are so different because we are predisposed to so called facts like Turks are this or Persians were that... The truth is they were all brutal but great and they let the culture under them flourish.

What I am saying is forget about school history books and all you have been brought up with. Go and learn objectively about your own history.

There were barbarian kings, warriors, great ones etc. Some were Turks, Persians and even the ones who were our enemies like Arabs. History, depending on who wrote them, is a twisted subject. So you have to really dig out the truth by being so objective and that is done by Westerners much better than likes of our Said Nafisi et al.
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
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#49
I can assure you Azari language will not die.

A portion of my family are Kurdish. 3 generations back when they moved to Tehran, none of the children born in Tehran learnt how to speak, read or write Kurdish.
Whereas the Azeri families we know, even if they haven't been out of Tehran for 200 years, all their family members can speak as if they don't know any other language.
I hope so.

But my own cousins, from both Azari Turkic parents, can hardly understand Azari Turkish. And likes of them are plenty in Tehran.

I have a fewZanjani friends and they have told me aweful stories, such as families in Turkic speaking Zanjan trying to speak Persian at home as they were seeing keeping up with Turkish Azari means less progress in the Persian schools.

Fortunately, that is changing and and I am hopefull.
 

OSTAD POOYA

National Team Player
Jan 26, 2004
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#50
Good piece on the historical origins:

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/articles/language_azeri_people_pan_turkism.php




Language of Azeri People and Pan-Turkism
By: Mohammad Taghi Sbokddel,


1. Azarbaijan
The name of Azarbaijan has been one of the most renowned geographical names of Iran since 2000 years ago. Azar is the same as "Ashur" which means fire. In Pahlavi inscriptions, Azarbaijan has been mentioned as 'Oturpatekan', while it has been mentioned Azarbayegan and Azarpadegan in Persian writings. It is Azarabadegan in Shah Nameh and Arabs knew it as Azarbijan or Adarbijan.

With regard to the emergence of Azarbaijan, the writing by Strabo, the famous Greek geographer seems to be the most important of all writings.

When the rule of Achaemenid dynasty came to an end, Alexander from Macedonia conquered Iran. A worrier called Otupart rose in Azarbayegan and prevented that land, which was part of the Median empire and was known as 'Lesser Mede' to be captures by Greek worriers. The land was thereafter called Oturpatekan.

Ahmad Kasravi, an Azeri pundit, opined that Oturpat was made up of Otur, meaning Azar or fire and Pat, which was later corroded to Paad and Baad, which meant guard.

In June 1918, the dignitaries of Mosavat (equality) Party, established a government in Caucasus and called it Azerbaijan following suit with policies of Turks. At that time, the naming gave rise to controversies and some even went as far as announcing that, "As if Azerbaijan is a land, which has been divided in two parts; one part lying to the north of Aras river and the other part lying to the south."

The disputes became so hectic that Azarbayegan proper was called 'Southern Azerbaijan' while Aran and Shiravan were called northern Azerbaijan to deceive the Iranian youth.

Mosavat Party whose real name was 'Mosavat Islamic Democratic Party' was established in 1911 in Baku with the goal of unifying Turks in Asia Minor.

Mosavat Party followed the policies of Pan-Turkists and advocated unity of all Turk-speaking people.

2. Language of Azeri people
The language spoken in Azerbaijan is one of the dialects of the Persian language, which was known to us as Azeri tongue.

Ahamd Kasravi has proven that based on evidence, the local language of Azeri people, at least, to the end of Mogul era (middle of the 8th century after Hegira) has been Azeri. After that, during a 150-year interval from the time that Chengiz dynasty became defunct since establishment of Safavids, the Azeri language was gradually replaced by Turkish dialect.

During recent year, Manouchehr Mortazavi, in an article on the ancient language of Azerbaijan, had opined that Azeri has been the language of Azerbaijan people and it has included various dialects.

However, since there has been discrepancies with regard to the original language of Azerbaijan people, the compendium of research results is as follows:

Ibn al-Nadim writes in his book al-Fihrist that the language of Iranian people could be divided in five classes including Pahlavi, Dari, Farsi, Khuzi (language of people in Khuzestan) and Soriani. Relying on what Ibn Muqaffa' said, he opined that Dari was the language of courtiers while Farsi was the language of priests and scientists and the language of people of Fars; Khuzi was the language that kings and dignitaries used in their intimate talks. Soriani was the language of people of Iraq while Pahlavi was spoken by people of Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Mah (Mede), Nahavand and Azerbaijan. His writing goes as such:

"Ibn Muqaffa' said: Iranian languages are five: Pahlavi, Dari, Farsi, Khuzi and Soriani. Pahlavi is attributed to Pahleh, which includes five regions of Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Mah, Nahavand and Azerbaijan. Dari is the language of cities in Madaen and courts of kings. Dari is eastern. Farsi is the language of priests and scientists. Dari is mostly spoken by people of Khorassan, Balkh and some regions in Fars. Khuzi is spoken by kings and dignitaries, but Soriani is the language of people of Iraq."

Out of the abovementioned languages, only two languages, including Dari, spoken in east Iran including Khorassan, and Pahlavi that was spoken by people in Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Nahavand and Azerbaijan are of concern here.

The authors belonging to the first centuries after Hegira have called the language of people of Azerbaijan as 'Azeri Pahlavi' and sometimes 'Azeri' and maintained that the said language was different from the language spoken in east Iran.

However, the difference was not so big as to make them incapable of comprehending what other peoples said. Nasser Khosrow in his itinerary says, "I arrived in Tabriz in 438 A.H.... I saw a poet in Tabriz named Ghetran. He was a good poet, but could not speak Persian correctly. He came to me with poetry books of Manjik and Daqiqi and asked any word that he could not understand..."

I presume that Nasser Khosrow meant Dari Persian which was known to him but some of whose words were not known to Khorassani poet. Marquat??, the famous Iranian scholar has written that, "Pahlavi language is, in fact, the same as Azeri language."

Yagoubi lived in the third century A.H. In his book, al-Boldan, he says the language of Azeri people was "Azeri Pahlavi".

Abu Abdollah Bashari Moqaddasi in his book divides Iran into eight climatic regions noting, "The language of these regions is Persian; however, some of them speak Dari and some complicated; and all those dialects are called Persian."

Masoudi believed that Pahlavi, Dari and Azeri were of the same origin and combination of their works was the same and all of them were considered among Farsi dialects.

Abu Abdollah Mohammad ibn Ahmad Kharazmi, who lived in the fourth century A.H., attributes Persian language to people of Fars and the language of priests and believes that Dari was the language of courtiers. With regard to Pahlavi language, he writes:

"Pahlavi is one of the Iranian languages used by kings. The work has been attributed to Pahleh, which encompasses five lands: Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Nahavand and Azerbaijan."

Estakhri says in his book, al-Masalek and al-Mamalek that the language of people of Azerbaijan is Arabic and Persian.

I believe that despite its tremendous pressure, Arabic could not overwhelm Persian and was rejected first in Khorassan and then in other parts of Iran.

Eranski??, the famous Russian scholar writes: "After pushing Arabic back in Khorassan and other regions, Persian did the same in other areas."

Two factors were influential in this regard. Firstly, Arabs were controlling a wide empire from Sir Darya River to Spain and their dominance in Iran was not so much as to be able to overwhelm the Iranian element. Secondly, the conflict between Iranians and Arabs, especially in political, military and literary fields was intense.

Ibn Hauqal writes, "The language of people of Azerbaijan and most people of Arminiyeh is Persian and Arabic if rife too. There are few merchants and landlords that speak Persian and who don't know Arabic."

Two points are worthy of mention: Firstly, the language of Azerbaijan people was Persian. Secondly, Arabic was not common among villages and lay people and only part of people knew it.

Ibn Hauqal says the languages spoken by people of Armenia and Aran were part of Persian. He writes, "Some tribes from Armenia and the like speak languages that are like Armenian. The same is true about people in Dabil and Nahvi (Nakhichevan). The language of Barza'eh people is Arani and the mountain known as Caucasus is theirs around which heathens with various languages live."

Yaghout Hemavi, who lived in the sixth and seventh century A.H. says with regard to the language of Azeris, "They speak a language called Azeri and nobody can understand it but themselves."

There were many dialects in Persia that were not intelligible to anybody but those who spoke them. One of them was the dialect of Talesh people in Gilan, which is unintelligible to people from other regions.

Hamdollah Mostofi, who lived in the seventh and eighth centuries A.H., refers to language of people of Maragheh and writes, "Their language is altered Pahlavi."

With regard to people of Talesh and their language, he writes, "People there are white and follow the religion of Imam Shafei. Their language is Pahlavi with Jilani dialect," he noted.

Homam Tabrizi, the renowned poet of Azerbaijan who lived in the 7th and 8th centuries A.H. has written many poems in Azeri Pahlavi.

Ezzoddin Adel ibn Yousof Tabrizi, who lived during 8th and 9th centuries A.H. has also written poems in Azeri dialect of Pahlavi.

There is no sign of Turkish words in those poems.

Undoubtedly, the dialect of Azeri Pahlavi was spoken in Azerbaijan until the advent of Safavid period, but it became obsolete in villages and cities since the middle of the Safavid period and only remained in hard-to-pass regions.

After this introduction, it is clear that if some try through sophistication to prove that Azerbaijan has been inhabited by Turks from old times, and it was only afterwards that some Aryans speaking Iranian languages conquered there accidentally, their claims would be nothing but purposeful lies.

Now it has become evident that the Turkish language rife in Azerbaijan, has been the language of what people from the start and how it has been imposed on people living there. It is ridiculous that some people consider it as the mother tongue of Azeri people and invite the people to replace it for the official Persian language. It is obvious that no learned people will get themselves down to forsake the language of Firdawsi, Sa'adi, Mowlavi and Hafiz and trade it for the faulty, backward language that was brought in by the marauding Turkmans. This is a foreign language that did not belong to the language of Iranian ancestors and was imposed on them.

The zealous people of Azerbaijan know these facts and will never follow a group of gullible guys who are stooges of other people.

We hope to prevent this vice to happen to people of Azerbaijan and we are sure than they know better than anybody else the main purpose of those who try to propagate it. We are sure that the Truth will always overcome Vice and demonstrate its power.

3. Pan-Turkism
Pan-Turkism movements reverberated in Baku since many years ago, or exactly since 1908, when young Turks seized power in Istanbul. During those years the putsch carried out by Unity and Progress Committee ended despotic rule of Sultan Abdolhamid and Turkist tendencies substituted Islamic school of thought.

The vanguards of Pan-Turkism stemmed from Turk peoples in the Russian empire that were in turn influenced by Pan-Slavism, which were formed in Russia during 19th century. In 1904, Yousof Anghchur Oghlu, a Tartar from Russia, which was later known as Yousof Aghchur, published a treatise titled, "Three Methods of Politics", which gradually gained importance as the manifest of Pan-Turkism.

During World War I, Pan-Turkist activities in Baku, which was dominated by Tsars of Russia, was limited to publication of periodicals. What is the main purpose of such periodicals as Yeni Foyouzat (New Bounties) and Shalaleh that while loyal to Tsars had made refining Turkish language in Caucasus their main objective and now laud Pan-Turkism and its worse alternative Pan-Turanism?

The theorists of Pan-Turkism believe that all ethnic groups and nationalities from Eastern Europe to Great Wall of China, which enjoy language, religious and traditional commonalties are, in fact, a single nation and should come together as a big nation and fulfill their historical mission in the face of other big civilizations such as European, Arab, Indian and Chinese civilizations. Their views, however, cannot be supported by scientific realities. Most great nations are made up of a single dominant race or, at least, ethnic variation of that race. An example is the United States of America, that while not older than two and a half centuries, is mainly made up of people from Anglo-Saxon or German stock. In the same way, people in Canada, Australia and New Zealand mainly hail from north or south European origin.

Pan-Turks claim that all people from beyond the straits to the end of Central Asia, ... are peoples from a single large nation, which have been divided due to historical injustice and their historical duty is to come together under a single flag.

They produce several reasons, the most important of which is the common language. They claim that all those languages were originally a single language that were later changed due to unfavorable conditions.

This claim is quite baseless, because those various languages could be divided in several categories:

1. Tribes known as Turks were serving Samanid kings in Central Asia during the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.H. and then they accepted Islam and began serving Abbasid caliphs and then established Ghaznavid dynasty and ruled Afghanistan and half of Iran.

2. Oghuz or Ghoz tribes invaded Iran from Central Asia and in addition go Ghaznavid, they did away with such Iranian dynasties as Al-e Bouyeh and Al-e Ziar and established Seljuk government, which in addition to the whole Iranian plateau ruled Asia Minor and Iraq, Arabs and the current day's Syria up to Mediterranean and even conquered Baghdad and made the Abbasid caliphs their stooge.

3. Mogul tribes, led by Chengiz invaded the whole Iran, Asia Minor and the Arabian Iraq and established the rule of Mogul ilkhans.

4. Tartar tribes first conquered the northern parts of the Central Asia and northern coasts of the Caspian Sea and then bolstered their forces under the command of Teimur and attacked Iran, Iraq and Caucasus to establish Gurkani government.

Therefore, the claims that all the above peoples were of a single origin, that is the land referred to as Turan, is baseless.

Pan-Turks go as far as introducing Mohammad Hossein Shahriar, the famous Iranian poet as follower of Turkish poets. Even if they gather a number of Azeris educated in Istanbul or Ankara, under 'Urmia Conference' and call for separation of Azerbaijan from Iran and its annexation to Turkey, they will not be able to dampen patriotic sentiments of Azeri people.

Even today, the difference among the language of those tribes referred to by Pan-Turks is so wide that Turkmens do not understand the language of Kyrkyz people and Uzbeks do not comprehend what people of Azerbaijan say. If such differences did not exit, there is no reason to assume that people of Iran's Azerbaijan are from a single origin with people of Anatolia because, firstly, Turkish language was imposed on people of Azerbaijan since a couple of centuries ago and before that they spoke Persian. Secondly, profound historical ties that date back to the time of Zoroaster have linked Azerbaijan with other parts of Iran so strongly that they cannot be taken apart. History has proven that anytime that foreigners hatched a plot to take Azerbaijan away from Iran, the people of Azerbaijan formed the front line of struggle to thwart that plot.
 
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OSTAD POOYA

National Team Player
Jan 26, 2004
4,678
426
#51
I hope so.



I have a fewZanjani friends and they have told me aweful stories, such as families in Turkic speaking Zanjan trying to speak Persian at home as they were seeing keeping up with Turkish Azari means less progress in the Persian schools.

With all due respect Iran’s language is PERSIAN and has been for thousands of years . This common bond and language has put together various Iranian tribes, groups, and ethnicities. With this every Iranian must know and speak Persian and this is the first language that has to be thought in schools. Parents can teach their children any language they desire at home but when it comes to schools this must be understood. With this said based on the location of these schools secondary languages should be thought in those regions to keep the culture and languages alive. There is no question in that. You keep talking as the Azari language is being banned and with that keep putting down Iran and indicating you would side the other side if this is to happen. FOR ALL PEOPLE LIVING IN IRAN IRAN COMES FIRST. This is for any person who calls themselves IRANIAN. You have to protect and promote Iranian identity, history and culture and there are not if’s and buts. Iranian government does not provide rights in schools in many areas and its not seen as people from those regions can obtain these rights yet. You as a true Iranian have to fight for the rights of all Iranians and the common bond of all Iranians. We are all considered Iranian first before anything else. For that we have to have a common bond and language and also when it comes to going to the work force and higher learning don't you agree there has to be a common language???


Here in the USA you must learn English first but in schools and universities you can learn Spanish, French, Chinese, Germany. I am sure its the same in many other parts of the world.
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
5,534
0
Jabolqa Opposite Jabolsa
#52
Referee aziz, again, your comment was not really a joke and more in line with other views you've expressed over the years. Others have responded the same way I did and they read your post with the smiley.
From my experience, IZ Jaan, you have always assumed what I think, partially because I do have problems clarifying myself too. However, at the end of every discussion about Azari lanugage, we have found that we do not think any differently. But then again...

As for the rest of your post, I don't know who you hang out with, aziz, but I honestly don't know anyone who denies the Turkish roots of Azari language!
Are you implying that I am making them up or are you trying to question who I should interact with. Just because you have not come across such people, does not mean much against me, does it?

Anyhow, just read some posts on this board more carefully and you see whom I have been responding to.


Ethnically, there are those who consider Azaris a purely persian group who have come to speak a Turkish dialect, and there are other equally misguided factions who insist that Azaris are just Turkish people but Iranian nevertheless. Both sides are only half right.

There is no question that the Azari ancestry includes the Turkic tribes that moved there. But what happened to the non-Turks who were already there for centuries?..Were they all killed?...Did they all move?...Did they vanish?...Has no one moved there since!?...The idea that Iranian Azaris are a homogeneous "Turkic" ethnicity is just as wrong as the notion that they are simply Persians who just happen to speak a different language. As reflected in the language itself, the Azari bloodline contains a mixture of the Turkic immigrants and the non-Turks already there. That's what shapes the rich Azari culture and gives it the unique Iranian flavor. The only problem is you are obsessed with the Turkic part just as some others are with the Persian one. And neither has a reasonable view of the issue.
Azari Turkic/Turkish is my mother tongue. It is the sweatest thing I can hear. Why is that an obsession?
Also why do you think I am obsessed with Turkish part while you are making it all so Persian and think Persian-ness is more important than my Turkic-ness?

Most Azaris I've met actually prefer the term Azari to anything else as they consider it a more accurate reference to their heritage.
Have you tried telling them they are not Turks or their language and heritage has nothing to do with Turkish/Turkic, especially after portraying Turks barabarian and savages who did not know anything but killing etc. etc.?

In the end, this tribalist nonsense, this obsession to prove that "Azaris are Turks" or "Iranians are/aren't Aryan", no matter how well-intentioned, is divisive, trivial, and of service to no one. Especially at a time when much more critical issues are on the table.
What do you mean? Shall I shut the &*& up because some people might get offended or are paranoid of NON-EXISTENCE separatism?
For heaven's sake, this is a forum to exchange ideas and talk. We are not fighting a war here!

Also, if you are against tribalism, you should also speak out against it when a Persian speaking tribalist opens his mouth and talks about forcing Azari Turks out to Turkey. I have not seen you that sensitive to them?
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
5,534
0
Jabolqa Opposite Jabolsa
#53
Iran Zamin Jaan,

You said who is even trying to say Azari Turkic is not related to Turkish in anyway.
Our great friend Ostad Pooya is just trying to do that.

TAHVIL BEGIR...


Pooya Jaan,

The question is not at all what we spoke 1000 years ago. The question is that our fellow Azari Turk HAMVATANs speak a language NOW that is Turkic/Turkish. They are Iranians and part of Iran and so is their Turkic language. As I said IF one day they need to choose between being a part of Iran or not, my vote will be that I will keep my mother tongue and let the alread dead Iran go.

Iran without promoting Azari Turkic (or any other ethnic culture for that matter) is not Iran you and I love. If you have a different image of Iran than me, then you are as separatist as those Pan Turks.


By the way, as I have mentioned many many time I do think Persian is our heritage and our official and first language. My point is we also need to promote Azari Turkish and the first step in that is to recognize it and do not try to dodge the fact that it is a Turkic language. Or otherwise, we are defining Iran as a country that does not reflect a true pluralist and great Iran.
 
Dec 12, 2002
8,517
1
usa
#55
the name of azarbayejan came from aturpat , a person from the region who rulled that area and stood against alexsander .
aturpat became aturpatekan and azarbayejan now .
 

IranZamin

IPL Player
Feb 17, 2006
3,367
2
#56
DO NOT KILL Iran and its great culture by trying to take its head out. The head speaks Azari Turkish and without it, it will die and with it the great Iran..

I am not saying Azarbaijan is more important than Gilan or elsewhere.
No aziz, that's pretty much what you're saying. And you have said it before and been confronted about it! More on that below.

From my experience, IZ Jaan, you have always assumed what I think, partially because I do have problems clarifying myself too.
When you say the head speaks Azari Turkish, then where do Farsi, Kurdish and other languages fit in your equation?...The nose?...the elbow?..

When you say Tehran is mostly "Azari Turkic" and heavily influenced by it, are you not discounting the other groups? Are you not revealing a wishful, chauvinistic mindset?

You’ve made many clear statements about the Azari history and influence that are just as arrogant and biased as anything the “pan-Farsists” have to say. A while back, when people said if Kurdish and Gilaki are not taught in schools then why should Azari be, you belittled those cultures by saying they lacked the ‘vibrancy’ and ‘historical tradition’ of the “700 year Azari civilization”. Your apology after you were confronted didn’t erase the fact that this is what you believe.

It’s pretty obvious that you have A LOT more ethnic bias than you’re willing to admit and that your ultimate loyalty belongs to a rather narrow definition of your ethnicity.

Anyhow, just read some posts on this board more carefully and you see whom I have been responding to.
Frankly, what has become increasingly clear is that your outlook is every bit as ethnocentric as that of the people you usually argue with. Even when you're not responding to a particular person, what you support is not so much diversity as it is blatant tribalism. You go out of your way to denounce beliefs that you describe as chauvinistic yet you often rationalize and even adhere to very similar attitudes.

I think the main difference between you and those members is that they're open about their agenda, while you usually go about yours in a much more indirect and underhanded manner. You give yourself away once in a while, then you backtrack or play it off like it was a joke or people misunderstood you.

Also why do you think I am obsessed with Turkish part while you are making it all so Persian and think Persian-ness is more important than my Turkic-ness?
I have done no such thing. I've made it clear that considering Azaris as only Fars is just as misguided as seeing them as only Turks.

Also, if you are against tribalism, you should also speak out against it when a Persian speaking tribalist opens his mouth and talks about forcing Azari Turks out to Turkey. I have not seen you that sensitive to them?
I think they were referring to those chanting separatist slogans, not ordinary Azaris. But if they actually believe Azaris don't belong to Iran, then they're absolutely wrong and deserve to be condemned. But your posts have gone far beyond that and often displayed the same ethnic arrogance that you're asking me to denounce.