The regime is not falling from within. There is no opposition in the country that can topple it or even WANTS to topple the core of the regime.The brutality they showed in 2009 made sure of that.Most of the opposition in Iran wants to make cosmetic reforms because noone is powerfull enough to standup to Sepah. If you want to destroy the system, you must takeout Sepah. Noone had the balls or the power for that.
Putting aside the forgin millitary invasion in Iran which I don't think anyone here supports, I still have problem with the statement that "we SHOULD support what ever the majority of Iranian want in Iran".
1) How do we know what the majority of Iranian population wants ?
Is the lack of visible demonstrations is necessarily a sign of accepting the situation?
Or is this the end result of the extreme force applied by the dictatorship regime?
Majority of Iranian did not show any visible opposition to imprisonment, rape and tortures at early 60s in Iran.
Does it mean that it was what they preferred or to lesser degree chose to live with ?
Should have we also supported the decision to sit to side and stay Quiet simply because no one in Iran has shown any visible sign of opposition ?
2) Why a vote of Iranian inside Iran should matter more than the vote of someone who lives outside Iran ?
If there was democratic election in Iran, don't those votes count the same ?
Plus, who draws the line on when your vote means less ? How long you have to leave Iran before your opinion does not matter and all you can DO NOW is to support what ever people inside decided to do ? Is it 1 year, 6 month or 2 weeks ?
1) How do we know what the majority of Iranian population wants ?
Is the lack of visible demonstrations is necessarily a sign of accepting the situation?
Or is this the end result of the extreme force applied by the dictatorship regime?
Majority of Iranian did not show any visible opposition to imprisonment, rape and tortures at early 60s in Iran.
Does it mean that it was what they preferred or to lesser degree chose to live with ?
Should have we also supported the decision to sit to side and stay Quiet simply because no one in Iran has shown any visible sign of opposition ?
2) Why a vote of Iranian inside Iran should matter more than the vote of someone who lives outside Iran ?
If there was democratic election in Iran, don't those votes count the same ?
Plus, who draws the line on when your vote means less ? How long you have to leave Iran before your opinion does not matter and all you can DO NOW is to support what ever people inside decided to do ? Is it 1 year, 6 month or 2 weeks ?
I would even take this further and say that how about those who were forced out of Iran one way or another by the current regime? Are they more or less Iranian? Some fought the regime and then left to save their lives. Are they less Iranian than some of those who stayed silent in Iran or those who supported the regime? You could also easliy see that the ratio of brains (percentage wise) among Iranians outside is much higher than inside Iran. It's against Iran's interest to write them off or ignore what they want for Iran. Also, I don't think that Iranians outside should or are obligated to support what the "majority" in Iran wants. If the majority wants what I don't want, I will not support the cause. For example, if the majority wants another Islamic government, I will support the minority that does not want that.
I actually read your posts in entirely. We are not fundraising here. The discussion is why Iranians are paralyzed in inaction. Your suggestion basically is you are willing to stay in the West, keep doing your business, keep yourself and your family safe, and send money to people who are in Iran. In return you want them to oppose to and hopefully to topple IRI, and you don't seem to mind if they go on strike and lose thier jobs, go to Evin, get shot at, be raped and so on...
I can assure you to those in Iran, your offer at best is "waste of gigabites".
I can assure you to those in Iran, your offer at best is "waste of gigabites".
With all due respect, I think your are missing the point. The point is that there have been people and there are people in Iran that are not waiting for Footballlover's support or anyone else's inside or outside to go on the streets and fight this regime. They are doing that regardless. All he is saying, like many others outside, is that he is not willing to go back and fight but is willing to give support. He is not encourraging anyone to go and fight for him or his interests. I just don't like this attitude that if one is not fighting in person or is outside Iran, then one must shut up and say nothing.
Shahin jan,
1. Just like any other society, Iranians' priorities change every year, if not more often, based on their current situation. Americans' priority back in G.W.Bush era, was to end the costly deceptive war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Today as we stand, their priority is creating jobs and reducing inequality.
Not trying to justify our ppl's lack of visible demonstration in the past 2 yrs, but I do believe majority ppl in Iran should decide upon their fate, not us nor any foreign govt. Not that we are less Iranian, dont have voting rights, but simply bc we dont go through what they do every single day in every aspect of their life.
The fact is, we dont live in a country that our business and personal matters is backlogged by IE censorship and filtering. We dont live in a country where our phone conversations are being checked, we dont live in a city that even for simple task of pumping up on gas,ppl have to form a 1km-long line-up in middle of the night bc there are not enough gas-stations in proportion to number of vehicles.
We dont have to work double shifts to make ends meet. We dont have to stay reliant on govt's mighty subsidy payout every month to pay for our family expense. We dont get arrested for doing our job as journalist, lawyer, photographer, musician, even poet! we dont work for companies that refuse to pay our monthly-cheques and govt doesnt do anything about it!
Instead of criticizing our ppl's inactivity in the past 30 yrs, and specially in the last year under sever oppression and arrests, why dont we start from ourselves, Iranians living in diaspora, whom although have large communities centred in big cities, we have FAILED to form a single viable democratic organization to have a united and active stance against injustices by govt of our country. so that our ppl inside Iran can look up to as a viable alternative one day?
The fact is, we live in a free society in comfort..yet we have failed to form unity among each other all these yrs..Always backstabbing, accusation, labeling each other no matter where we live. When we fix ourselves here in free world, then we can expect more from our struggling oppressed ppl in Iran.
1. Just like any other society, Iranians' priorities change every year, if not more often, based on their current situation. Americans' priority back in G.W.Bush era, was to end the costly deceptive war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Today as we stand, their priority is creating jobs and reducing inequality.
Not trying to justify our ppl's lack of visible demonstration in the past 2 yrs, but I do believe majority ppl in Iran should decide upon their fate, not us nor any foreign govt. Not that we are less Iranian, dont have voting rights, but simply bc we dont go through what they do every single day in every aspect of their life.
The fact is, we dont live in a country that our business and personal matters is backlogged by IE censorship and filtering. We dont live in a country where our phone conversations are being checked, we dont live in a city that even for simple task of pumping up on gas,ppl have to form a 1km-long line-up in middle of the night bc there are not enough gas-stations in proportion to number of vehicles.
We dont have to work double shifts to make ends meet. We dont have to stay reliant on govt's mighty subsidy payout every month to pay for our family expense. We dont get arrested for doing our job as journalist, lawyer, photographer, musician, even poet! we dont work for companies that refuse to pay our monthly-cheques and govt doesnt do anything about it!
Instead of criticizing our ppl's inactivity in the past 30 yrs, and specially in the last year under sever oppression and arrests, why dont we start from ourselves, Iranians living in diaspora, whom although have large communities centred in big cities, we have FAILED to form a single viable democratic organization to have a united and active stance against injustices by govt of our country. so that our ppl inside Iran can look up to as a viable alternative one day?
The fact is, we live in a free society in comfort..yet we have failed to form unity among each other all these yrs..Always backstabbing, accusation, labeling each other no matter where we live. When we fix ourselves here in free world, then we can expect more from our struggling oppressed ppl in Iran.
That is a great point which most of the time gets ignored by many here since they ASSUME everyone is in this side of the border because of personal choice.
It is the fact, that some Iranians who are outside, simply did not have the same rights of the majority of Iranians.
Many of them were subjected to prosecution, injustice and their basic rights of citizens were ignored much more often and severe than ordinary Iranian citizens.
Their most basic rights taken away from them and they were forced to leave Iran, basically a self imposed exile to have at least a chance to basic human rights such as opening an own business without fear of government shut down, going to school, having passports and ... These people suffered due to their political, religious, racial views much more an ordinary Iranians in past 33 years.
Now, no one claims these people should play the VICTIM CARD and have additional rights or anything !!!! But taking their votes, their voices away and making them a simple spectators of the events just because they are NOT living in Iran does NOT make any sense especially when they were forced to leave !!!
It is the fact, that some Iranians who are outside, simply did not have the same rights of the majority of Iranians.
Many of them were subjected to prosecution, injustice and their basic rights of citizens were ignored much more often and severe than ordinary Iranian citizens.
Their most basic rights taken away from them and they were forced to leave Iran, basically a self imposed exile to have at least a chance to basic human rights such as opening an own business without fear of government shut down, going to school, having passports and ... These people suffered due to their political, religious, racial views much more an ordinary Iranians in past 33 years.
Now, no one claims these people should play the VICTIM CARD and have additional rights or anything !!!! But taking their votes, their voices away and making them a simple spectators of the events just because they are NOT living in Iran does NOT make any sense especially when they were forced to leave !!!
Nilou Khanom,
I am not sure where from my post you got the impression that I am criticizing Iranian people's action now.
The part that you highlighted in red, is regard to how we sat quiet during the rapes and tortures of early 60s and that DOES deserve a criticism.
As I said in my original post, majority of Iranians were against those behaviors but choose to not say anything.
Now, was it wrong for people who were living outside of Iran to to take action regarding those human rights violations ?
Should we point finger at them and accuse them of NOT supporting the majority of Iranian who are living in Iran?
Should we tell them they have no write to object to those action simply because they do not live in Iran?
Plus,there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism.
It is a normal reaction to disagreeing with an ideology or a certain behavior. Everyone has the right to criticize ( regardless of their geographical location), discuss and dissect others behavior.
Isn't this how we learn from one another, understand each others differences and hopefully reach a common ground.
ALL that being said, the main point of my post under this thread was exactly what you pointed in the last 3 lines which I quoted above.
My point is that just because an Iranian lives outside Iran, by choice or forced to leave, SHOULD NOT reduce him/her to merely an spectator of events of Iran. Iranian aboard should not take a BACKSEAT and just be FOLLOWERS or supporters of WHATEVER is happening in Iran.
On the contrary, since they enjoy freedom of press and ... They can become the pioneers and start the movements and be the first ones who spark the fires and ...
Now, I understand it is challenging task and one MAY NOT be able to rally the support of Iranian inside Iran due to various reasons , but that does not mean one should stop trying !!!
Iranians are Iranian being inside or outside and their votes counts the same. If one is NOT happy with the events happening in Iran and thinks such events need to take a different directions , then he or she, can use his/her resources here to rally support for what they believe is right.
It is not taboo or morally unacceptable to have a different opinion from Iranian people who live in Iran
( again, this goes back to my first post on whether we even know the real voice of them and whether being quiet means being content as for example early 60s)
if you leave outside of Iran.
Side note: As an example, one can argue that boycotting Iranian so called election, was an idea that started from outside Iran and had opposition from some people but now, history showed us how correct were those who suggested it in the first place.
I remember the support that Simply_Ken was getting from many members here when he was defending Iranian elections and its effectiveness as a tool to change from "WITHIN" just 2.5 years ago.
I am not sure where from my post you got the impression that I am criticizing Iranian people's action now.
The part that you highlighted in red, is regard to how we sat quiet during the rapes and tortures of early 60s and that DOES deserve a criticism.
As I said in my original post, majority of Iranians were against those behaviors but choose to not say anything.
Now, was it wrong for people who were living outside of Iran to to take action regarding those human rights violations ?
Should we point finger at them and accuse them of NOT supporting the majority of Iranian who are living in Iran?
Should we tell them they have no write to object to those action simply because they do not live in Iran?
Plus,there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism.
It is a normal reaction to disagreeing with an ideology or a certain behavior. Everyone has the right to criticize ( regardless of their geographical location), discuss and dissect others behavior.
Isn't this how we learn from one another, understand each others differences and hopefully reach a common ground.
ALL that being said, the main point of my post under this thread was exactly what you pointed in the last 3 lines which I quoted above.
My point is that just because an Iranian lives outside Iran, by choice or forced to leave, SHOULD NOT reduce him/her to merely an spectator of events of Iran. Iranian aboard should not take a BACKSEAT and just be FOLLOWERS or supporters of WHATEVER is happening in Iran.
On the contrary, since they enjoy freedom of press and ... They can become the pioneers and start the movements and be the first ones who spark the fires and ...
Now, I understand it is challenging task and one MAY NOT be able to rally the support of Iranian inside Iran due to various reasons , but that does not mean one should stop trying !!!
Iranians are Iranian being inside or outside and their votes counts the same. If one is NOT happy with the events happening in Iran and thinks such events need to take a different directions , then he or she, can use his/her resources here to rally support for what they believe is right.
It is not taboo or morally unacceptable to have a different opinion from Iranian people who live in Iran
( again, this goes back to my first post on whether we even know the real voice of them and whether being quiet means being content as for example early 60s)
if you leave outside of Iran.
Side note: As an example, one can argue that boycotting Iranian so called election, was an idea that started from outside Iran and had opposition from some people but now, history showed us how correct were those who suggested it in the first place.
I remember the support that Simply_Ken was getting from many members here when he was defending Iranian elections and its effectiveness as a tool to change from "WITHIN" just 2.5 years ago.
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The problem we are having here is that you make comments in your post and attribute those comments to me!
If I don't live in Iran how am I supposed to go on the streets and demonstrate!?
If I don't work in IRAN how am I supposed to go on strike!?
What I am saying is that if the opportunity presents itself I will help in anyway I can where I have lived for the past 30 years.
Am I telling people to go out and get killed, or go to jail or be raped? No. What I am saying is that if the people of IRAN want to have freedom they will have to earn it themselves. It will not be handed to them.
If I don't live in Iran how am I supposed to go on the streets and demonstrate!?
If I don't work in IRAN how am I supposed to go on strike!?
What I am saying is that if the opportunity presents itself I will help in anyway I can where I have lived for the past 30 years.
Am I telling people to go out and get killed, or go to jail or be raped? No. What I am saying is that if the people of IRAN want to have freedom they will have to earn it themselves. It will not be handed to them.
