Was the black Friday (17 Shahrivar) what took down Shah?

[The_Referee]

From all atrocities done by this or that regime, this was by far a very bad one. Whoever was responsible for this was also responsible for a turning point of a black 1979 revolution and demise of Shah's regime.
On the hindsight, I wish Shah had punished those responsible and made a lesson out of them to avert this 1979 revolution. From every aspect, the numbers (around 40-120 are reported as opposed to astronomical exaggerated numbers we have been taught at schools or told by IRI) to the way they were massacred to the way they were kept in dark about Hokoomat Nezaami and the fact that the demonstration was indeed a very peaceful one without the leftist elements, all indicates atrocity all over the event. Some fool HEYVOON (what else could you call him) thought that would teach people a lesson, not realizing the bad backlash of it. I am not really sure how Shah could think that was OK and did not persecute those responsible.

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[oghabealborz]

who or whatever was responsible for Rex cinema trajedy was responsible for 17th of shahrivar too ,opening fire on soldeirs thus making them to retaliate ...

 

[Iranpaak]

I do not think a single event caused the Shah's downfall. I believe on 15th of Khordad (1342) more people were killed in a single day than 17 Shahrivar, but the difference was that, 15th of Khordad event was not followed up with more killings and demonstrations. Alam who was the PM in 1342 brags about the sarkoob in his book. Maybe whoever decided on shooting the people had the 15th of Khordad in his mind and wrongly thought that it will put an end to the uprising. It was a senseless killing which upset everyone.
IMHO, there were series of wrong decisions and wrong appointments by the Shah and his confusion about the Iranians resulted his fall.

 

[The_Referee]

who or whatever was responsible for Rex cinema trajedy was responsible for 17th of shahrivar too ,opening fire on soldeirs thus making them to retaliate ...

Oghab Jaan,

I had heard and read a lot about Rex and that how fishy the event was.
However, nothing in lines of what you said about 17 Shahrivar, not even from official accounts from Shah's regime! Do you have any reference for that?

 

[The_Referee]

I do not think a single event caused the Shah's downfall. I believe on 15th of Khordad (1342) more people were killed in a single day than 17 Shahrivar, but the difference was that, 15th of Khordad event was not followed up with more killings and demonstrations. Alam who was the PM in 1342 brags about the sarkoob in his book. Maybe whoever decided on shooting the people had the 15th of Khordad in his mind and wrongly thought that it will put an end to the uprising. It was a senseless killing which upset everyone.
IMHO, there were series of wrong decisions and wrong appointments by the Shah and his confusion about the Iranians resulted his fall.

Was 15 Khordad also peaceful also? I am pointing out the way it was carried out rather than the numbers. Numbers were no problem for black revolution supporters. They had MKO and all leftist propagandist in their side who were able to make numbers like 5000 our of 100 and people believed them readily up until very recently when all records were examined by internet savvy youth.

The problem with 17 Shahrivar was that it left those who defending Shah in a very very bad position. The demonstration was a really peaceful one. I am telling you this via a old neighbor who moved from that area later who was actually there. There was not even a stone thrown by demonstrators. They announcement for Hokoumat Nezami that morning was not heard by most of demonstrators. So it was really an unprovoked attack by soldiers and whoever decided to do this was thinking of making a lesson type thing. This is something Shah tried to avoid in later demonstrations (except for Ashura demonstration massacre plan which did not take place because of what happened in LAVIZAN, if we can trust that story).

Even IRI with all its brutal attitude knows a repeat of anything like 17 Shahrivar will be a lethal blow to it. They know that there is only one lesson to be learned from such incidents and that is the regime who does that can not be forgiven, even if it is a great regime like Shah's let alone backward mullah regime!

 

[deerouz]

I do not think a single event caused the Shah's downfall. I believe on 15th of Khordad (1342) more people were killed in a single day than 17 Shahrivar, but the difference was that, 15th of Khordad event was not followed up with more killings and demonstrations.

The real number of casualties on 15 Khordad was never really known. It was probably far far below the number claimed after the revolution. Thousands were arrested but were freed in a day or two. The 15 Khordad foundation has been publishing books of the memoirs of the people involved in the incident and surprisingly, no one seem to be able to report an eyewitness account of a mass murder any where. Even the Varamin incident (which made its way into IRI textbooks) was probably not of the magnitude they claim.

17 Shahrivar was a direct result of army's complete unpreparedness in dealing with civil unrest in the cities. I don't think any high rank official gave the order; most likely it was some field commander who panicked in face of the demonstrations. In this case too, the records after the revolution puts the number of dead at about 80.

 

[Iranpaak]

They announcement for Hokoumat Nezami that morning was not heard by most of demonstrators.

Referee JAn, this is the story I heard right after the event, I was in Tehran in those tumultuous days. It could have been avoided if someone with half a brain was in-charge. As to whether the uprising of 15th of Khordad 1342 was peaceful or not, it depends what source you use; the radio was saying that the crowds were bunch of kharbkhar promted by ارتجاع سیاه among other things.

 

[Iranpaak]

The real number of casualties on 15 Khordad was never really known. It was probably far far below the number claimed after the revolution.

That is for sure, no one really knows the number of people killed in either events. Having said that, based on my study of what was written afterwards and discussion with people who witnessed the 15th Khordad, I do believe that 15th of Khordad, had more casualty than the black Friday which by your account had 80 victims. The 15th of Khordad killings basically ended the uprising of 1342.
The main point of my post was that I do not think a single event caused the downfall of the Shah, it was a series of missteps.

 

[parham79]

First of all after an autopsy bullets that were found were not even the brand the Imperial Army used. In effect there were other elements involved. Islamist have a track record of trying to incite haterd by having their own agents commit. Saeed emami admited thatthe yplanned to bomb karbala so they could blame the MKO for it.

The Communists with Islamists were armed and were heavily trained in Libya and other countries to fight the Imperial Army.Half of what happen and Ghaddafis involvment hasnt even been documented. The drag queen was funding the islamist and the commies left and right.

 

[oghabealborz]

Oghab Jaan,

I had heard and read a lot about Rex and that how fishy the event was.
However, nothing in lines of what you said about 17 Shahrivar, not even from official accounts from Shah's regime! Do you have any reference for that?

Ref jan you said it best ....fishy ,

 

[The_Referee]

First of all after an autopsy bullets that were found were not even the brand the Imperial Army used. In effect there were other elements involved. Islamist have a track record of trying to incite haterd by having their own agents commit. Saeed emami admited thatthe yplanned to bomb karbala so they could blame the MKO for it.

The Communists with Islamists were armed and were heavily trained in Libya and other countries to fight the Imperial Army.Half of what happen and Ghaddafis involvment hasnt even been documented. The drag queen was funding the islamist and the commies left and right.

Parham Jaan,

I know Islamist are capable of many things. But I doubt 17 Shahrivar event was any of those kind.

They blew up the numbers and added too many angles to the event but undeniable fact is that Shah's regime DID massacre tens of Iranians that day and those were peaceful demonstrators, no matter what their way of life was.

I have not heard the claims like your even from those die hard supporters of Shah. Are you really serious? Do you have any reference or evidence?

 

[The_Referee]

Ref jan you said it best ....fishy ,

Well Oghab Jaan, Rex was fishy but 17 Shahrivar, apart from the hugely exaggerated numbers was a government/army made tragedy.

I think those who were responsible for murdering Neda and Ashkan two years ago and those who had a hand in the massacre of 17 Shahrivar are of the same kind, even if they belong to different factions. In fact, both of those are not only against our country and humanity, they disservice the very government they want to serve.

 

[oghabealborz]

Well Oghab Jaan, Rex was fishy but 17 Shahrivar, apart from the hugely exaggerated numbers was a government/army made tragedy.

I think those who were responsible for murdering Neda and Ashkan two years ago and those who had a hand in the massacre of 17 Shahrivar are of the same kind, even if they belong to different factions. In fact, both of those are not only against our country and humanity, they disservice the very government they want to serve.

I believe those who prompted the cinema trajedy also instigated the trouble on 17 shahrivar by shooting at soldeirs and making them retaliate ,or by shooting at both sides ,the crowd and the soldeirs .

the whole propoganda machine had been hard at work to brand the reigme as evil as they can ,amnesty with its human rights BBC with their own ajenda ,jimmy carter with his crap human rights bullshit ....all hard at work to destabilse our country to serve their own purpose .

Not that I think the former regime and the shah were perfect and there was no issues but like you said it was all very fishy and had nothing to do the rights of freedom for Iranians .

the biggest losers were the Iranian people ....

 

[The_Referee]

I believe those who prompted the cinema trajedy also instigated the trouble on 17 shahrivar by shooting at soldeirs and making them retaliate ,or by shooting at both sides ,the crowd and the soldeirs .

the whole propoganda machine had been hard at work to brand the reigme as evil as they can ,amnesty with its human rights BBC with their own ajenda ,jimmy carter with his crap human rights bullshit ....all hard at work to destabilse our country to serve their own purpose .

Not that I think the former regime and the shah were perfect and there was no issues but like you said it was all very fishy and had nothing to do the rights of freedom for Iranians .

the biggest losers were the Iranian people ....

Oghab Jaan,

The claims about 17 Shahrivar shootings from demonstration side were not made even by likes of Sharif Emami, who was PM then.

Do you really have a reference for this or you have just heard it from someone or you are just speculating?

 

[oghabealborz]

Oghab Jaan,

The claims about 17 Shahrivar shootings from demonstration side were not made even by likes of Sharif Emami, who was PM then.

Do you really have a reference for this or you have just heard it from someone or you are just speculating?

No , no proof and probabley we will never know the truth .who's gonna admit to torch a cinema packed full of people or similar events ? you just have to put 2 and 2 together and make your own conclusions .

I don't believe the army would just open fire on peaceful demontrators , it was much more to it than that . but this is just my opinion ...and I am in no way a supporter of Shah's regime or anyone else in particular .

 

[The_Referee]

No , no proof and probabley we will never know the truth .who's gonna admit to torch a cinema packed full of people or similar events ? you just have to put 2 and 2 together and make your own conclusions .

I don't believe the army would just open fire on peaceful demontrators , it was much more to it than that . but this is just my opinion ...and I am in no way a supporter of Shah's regime or anyone else in particular .

Oghab Jaan,

I agree that the situation was not so simple. However, I do not agree with you on putting 2 and 2 together either. I think those in charge did not mind the massacre at all and possibly even welcomed the fact that people would learn some lessons. We still read and hear about it today, even from some of our own members here that Shah should have done this or that instead of praising the man for not continuing when he thought he should not. This mentality Shah Parasti and Imam Parasti is not so different. Only the subject changes but nature is the same.

For those with SHAH KHODA MIHAN mentality the massacre would have given a clear messages to the rest in the same way in 15 KHORDAD did; same way IRI thought of killing Neda and Ashkan and many others two years ago.

Furthermore, if it was this easy as putting 2 and 2 together, how come Sharif Emami and Shah then could not prove this then? They had all the means to do it then and to clear this out then. They did not even try much, not even after revolution.

Remember how IRI also tries these days to bring MKO or anyone to the story of Neda but the actual murderer and culprit who carried out the murder. They are committing the same mistake.

 

[Behrooz_C]

From the moment that people were killed demonstrating, Shah's regime was on a downhill and had to go. The same things have happened in other uprisings before and since. Regimes that kill their own people eventually fall. We have seen examples recently in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. Syria is next, sooner or later.

This is what the IR regime knows very well too. That's why they blamed Neda's death on almost everyone else. That's why they quickly made a basiji ID card for Saneh Jaleh and said he was a Basiji killed by the demonstrators. and that's why they blame MKO for firing on protestors etc.

 

[deerouz]

IMO the fate of the regime was sealed as soon as the martial law was announced and a conscript army with no experience in civil unrest was sent to enforce it. In that sense yes, 17 Shahrivar was the turning point.

The key turning point in the success of the revolution was the collapse of the army in the last couple of months, and I am not talking about the imaginary betrayal of some army commanders on 22 Bahman. Conscript soldiers were kept on the streets for months dealing with young and old ordinary people and protestors, witness killings, subject to extreme mental pressure as well as propaganda directly aimed at them (e.g. Khomeini's edict about soldiers duty to desert). They were not prepared to deal with civil unrest. According to army records in the months of Day and Bahman 1357 alone the rate of soldiers deserting their posts and fleeing reached 3000 a day across the country! Those who blame army commanders for not taking action in the last weeks forget that by that time the army had practically melted.

And add to that the biggest betrayal, the late Shah as the chief commander leaving his post and fleeing the country. Obviously everyone else followed suit. Once the army collapsed, the civil war and take over of army barracks (resulting in the collapse of the regime) was only a matter of time.

Regimes sometimes do get away with murdering or massacring their people, however they must be both brutal and use either professionals or brainwashed killers to do that. IRI has both. The Shah regime had neither.

My 2 cents.

 

[oghabealborz]

Oghab Jaan,

I agree that the situation was not so simple. However, I do not agree with you on putting 2 and 2 together either. I think those in charge did not mind the massacre at all and possibly even welcomed the fact that people would learn some lessons. We still read and hear about it today, even from some of our own members here that Shah should have done this or that instead of praising the man for not continuing when he thought he should not. This mentality Shah Parasti and Imam Parasti is not so different. Only the subject changes but nature is the same.

For those with SHAH KHODA MIHAN mentality the massacre would have given a clear messages to the rest in the same way in 15 KHORDAD did; same way IRI thought of killing Neda and Ashkan and many others two years ago.

Furthermore, if it was this easy as putting 2 and 2 together, how come Sharif Emami and Shah then could not prove this then? They had all the means to do it then and to clear this out then. They did not even try much, not even after revolution.

Remember how IRI also tries these days to bring MKO or anyone to the story of Neda but the actual murderer and culprit who carried out the murder. They are committing the same mistake.

One thing that the shah's regime failed misrebly was with public relations ,appointing incompetent people like sharifemmami and General Azhari in time of crisis . The shah himself was pretty hopeless in time of crisis and I agree he should not have abondaned ship in time of crisis.

 

[parham79]

Shah was a indecissive character. It got to a point Khosrodad a mans man and Azahari went to him and burst into tears saying you are giving our country away with you're lack
of wise leadership.Khosrodad was the founding father of the Takavaran and Iran's SBS forces. He was a ace Cobra and Huey pilot. This man was crying like a baby saying Reza Shah would have acted more firmly you're highness.