We are among the culturally superior 8 groups

Zob Ahan

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Feb 4, 2005
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#1
Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior

By Maureen Callahan

January 4, 2014 | 3:17pm

Tiger Mom: Some cultural groups are superior
"Tiger Mom" Amy Chua is known for claiming that Chinese women make the best mothers, but now she and her husband say that some groups are just plain better than others.

Amy Chua, the self-proclaimed “Tiger Mom” who, in 2011, published a book arguing that Chinese women are superior mothers — thus their offspring superior children — has even more to say.

In “The Triple Package,” Chua and her husband, co-author Jed Rubenfeld, gather some specious stats and anecdotal evidence to argue that some groups are just superior to others and everyone else is contributing to the downfall of America.

Unsurprisingly, the Chinese Chua and the Jewish Rubenfeld belong to two of the eight groups they deem exceptional. In no seeming order of importance, they are:
•Jewish
•Indian
•Chinese
•Iranian
•Lebanese-Americans
•Nigerians
•Cuban exiles
•Mormons

These groups — “cultural,” mind you, never “ethnic” or “racial” or “religious” — all possess, in the authors’ estimation, three qualities that they’ve identified as guarantors of wealth and power: superiority, insecurity and impulse control.

“That certain groups do much better in America than others — as measured by income, occupational status, test scores and so on — is difficult to talk about,” the authors write. “In large part, this is because the topic feels so racially charged.”

And so begins their cat-and-mouse polemic, in which they claim they’re courageously agitating for a greater good: the revival of America itself as a “Triple Package Culture.” It’s a series of shock-arguments wrapped in self-help tropes, and it’s meant to do what racist arguments do: scare people.

Chua, a law professor at Yale, became a media sensation in 2011, when The Wall Street Journal published an extract from her book “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother.” She herself is an American, raised in the Midwest, but she used her heritage and all the worst stereotypes of Chinese women — cold, rigid Dragon Ladies, hostile towards their own children — to criticize the Western way of parenting, which she also said would be the downfall of America.

Chua wrote about calling one of her two daughters “garbage” for being rude, dismissing a homemade birthday card as subpar (“I don’t want this — I want another one”), refusing to let her girls watch TV or participate in school plays or have sleepovers, of threatening to give away a beloved dollhouse if her daughter couldn’t master a complicated classical composition within days.

Her book really can be reduced to a simple argument: Chinese mothers are better than those of any other race, and these parenting methods are going to result in the West’s big fear — the continued rise and ultimate supremacy of China. Chua’s book was a best-seller, so it’s little surprise she’s back with an even more incendiary thesis, one so well timed to deep economic anxiety, to the collective fear that the American middle class is about to disappear, for good, and the misguided belief that immigration reform will result in even less opportunity for Americans than there is now.

She and Rubenfeld stoke those fears. “Although rarely mentioned in media reports,” they write, “the studies said to show the demise in upward mobility largely exclude immigrants and their children.”

Yet the authors do not mention whether these immigrants are low-wage workers who have a greater chance at upward mobility, and the Pew study they cite is from 2007 — one year before the global financial collapse, resulting in an American economy that may be structurally altered for decades to come.

All of the groups profiled by Chua and Rubenfeld are done so only as American immigrants, with the exceptions of Mormons and Jews, who are superior to Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, atheists and Muslims — the latter group, it seems, too controversial to warrant a mention.

On to the distinguishing factors that make these eight groups the best in America:

1. A superiority complex

Any group that collectively believes they are inherently better than any other, say the authors, has an advantage. They do not note that this is perhaps humanity’s oldest and ugliest flaw, the bottom-line cause of wars and genocide. In their estimation, it’s not nearly common enough in America, where “the Superiority Complex . . . is antithetical to mainstream liberal thinking . . . the stuff of racism, colonialism, imperialism, Nazism.” This way of thinking, they write, has been a big boon to Mormons and Jews, though they also fail to note that believing in the superiority of a belief system is the driving force behind almost all organized religion. (Except the Amish. The authors freely note that the Amish are losers for this very reason.)

2. Insecurity

Here are the authors sounding most like Malcolm Gladwell: Posit something, make a solid case for it, then immediately refute it with equal fervor. The result: Readers are so confused that they can only conclude that this book is so much smarter than they are.

The authors are very impressed with their boldness in juxtaposing insecurity with superiority. “That insecurity should be a critical lever of success is another anathema, flouting the entire orthodoxy of contemporary popular and therapeutic psychology,” they write. In fact, insecurity has long been known as a prime motivator among actors, artists, CEOs, despots. “Imposter syndrome,” the term used to describe highly successful individuals who believe, deep down, they are frauds, was identified back in 1978.

“Note that there’s a deep tension between insecurity and a superiority complex,” the authors continue. “It’s odd to think of people being simultaneously insecure but also convinced of their divine election or superiority.” Really? Just ask anyone who’s ever met a narcissist, or read a profile of A-Rod.

3. Impulse Control

Yet another hallmark of self-help, impulse control is considered to be a key factor in personal success — the ability to delay instant gratification in the service of a greater goal. But this isn’t really what the authors have in mind: “As we’ll use the term,” they write, “impulse control refers to the ability to resist temptation, especially the temptation to give up in the face of hardship or quit instead of persevering at a difficult task.”

You know who’s bad at this? Americans not among their eight groups. “Because all three elements of the Triple Package run so counter to modern American culture, it makes sense that America’s successful groups are all outsiders in one way or another,” they write. “Paradoxically, in modern America, a group has an edge if it doesn’t buy into — or hasn’t yet bought into — mainstream, post-1960s, liberal American principles.”

As curious as the groups that Chua and Rubenfeld elevate are the absence of ones they denigrate. Aside from the Amish (not big book-buyers), the only other group the authors take aim at are the Appalachian poor, noting, without irony, that “it’s far more socially acceptable today to insult and look down on ‘white trash’ than the poor of any other racial group.’”

As for why African-Americans don’t make the list, the authors believe that the Civil Rights Movement took away any hope for a superiority narrative, and so the black community is screwed — even as they cite Mitt Romney’s loss to Barack Obama as evidence of Mormon ascendancy.

“In this paradoxical sense, equality isn’t fair to African-Americans,” they write. “Superiority is the one narrative that America has relentlessly denied or ground out of its black population.”

Nigerian immigrants, they argue, are bolstered by the belief that they are better than other West Africans — much as the Lebanese believe, as descendants of Phoenicians, that they are superior, or that the Chinese believe that their 5,000-year-old civilization makes them superior. But feeling superior to other nations, races or religions is nothing more than that — a feeling.

The authors have such dubious data — “getting a statistical fix on Mormon income and wealth is notoriously difficult”; “hard numbers, however, are surprisingly hard to come by” — that they undermine every assertion of so-called “cultural” supremacy.

The real story here — the less controversial one, the more interesting and possibly instructive one — is that historically, immigrant groups tend to experience upward mobility in America until the third generation, and then, for reasons unknown, tend to level off. It’s interesting, too, that the authors either dismiss or outright ignore the large swaths of immigrant groups who built up this country — the English, Irish, Italians, Germans, Eastern Europeans. They ignore two very basic explanations for the success of immigrant groups in America: Anyone who leaves their homeland for parts unknown, no matter how desperate, is, by definition, bold; America’s uniqueness as a nation founded by immigrants.

Once we were a Triple Package nation, say the authors, but no more. We have been done in by our superiority complex, our poor, Western-style “self-esteem parenting” and lack of impulse control.

The question they finally pose — Should America be a Triple Package country again? Can it? — is followed by a paragraph-long, yes-no-maybe answer that will give you whiplash.

“The real promise of a Triple Package America,” they conclude, “is the promise of a day when there are no longer any successful groups in the United States — only successful individuals.”

Today, the demographic predicted to have the greatest impact economically, politically and culturally, by the year 2042, are Hispanics. Just don’t tell the Mormons or the Jews.
 

IranZamin

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Feb 17, 2006
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#2
All I know is that if you look at the rates of prosperity versus poverty and criminality versus law abiding behavior in America, you will notice that the communities who have and continue to thrive in the US all share very distinct cultural characteristics:

- A great emphasis on education or at least a secure career and the promotion of them as admirable accomplishments,

- a similar emphasis on the importance of long term life-planning including and especially when it comes to having kids,

- and an understanding of the importance of parenthood. In particular the significance of not just maternal but paternal responsibility and the crucial role a father plays in his children's lives.

By contrast, when you look at the communities that are overrun to varying degrees by poverty and criminality, you will notice an open and unabashed disregard by their prevailing culture for the responsibilities involved in fatherhood and long term life planning, and a common view of education and hard work as things only for suckers and chumps.

It's hard to see how anyone can live and work in America and deal with a large cross-section of the society without noticing these issues.
 

ME

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Nov 2, 2002
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#3
All I know is that if you look at the rates of prosperity versus poverty and criminality versus law abiding behavior in America, you will notice that the communities who have and continue to thrive in the US all share very distinct cultural characteristics:

- A great emphasis on education or at least a secure career and the promotion of them as admirable accomplishments,

- a similar emphasis on the importance of long term life-planning including and especially when it comes to having kids,

- and an understanding of the importance of parenthood. In particular the significance of not just maternal but paternal responsibility and the crucial role a father plays in his children's lives.

By contrast, when you look at the communities that are overrun to varying degrees by poverty and criminality, you will notice an open and unabashed disregard by their prevailing culture for the responsibilities involved in fatherhood and long term life planning, and a common view of education and hard work as things only for suckers and chumps.

It's hard to see how anyone can live and work in America and deal with a large cross-section of the society without noticing these issues.
I think non-hispanic immigrants in America posses more abilities than just the ability to cross borders. In other words, there is a selection bias to begin with and immigrants from nations like Iran have more "go getter traits" than their national average. They are less christian too. Christian church in particular mushrooms in poor neighborhoods, black or white alike (now it is only my observation and I am not sure which one is chicken and which one is egg). They are also less privileged when they set foot in America, so they get used to work hard. Plus, immigrants have no lineage here, if they don't survive, if they go back, if they vanish, we will never hear about them and won't see them in statistics.
 

IranZamin

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^ Yeah, but it's not just the go-getter part that you would expect from immigrant groups. If you look at Asian cultures in general, they tend to have the education/family oriented values even in their native countries. The idea that a father has a responsibility toward his kids, that it's not "cool" to knock women up and walk away, that being educated and hard-working are admirable qualities, that being a nurturing mother is not beneath a woman...these are attitudes that these people bring with them from their native countries as part of the cultures they grew up with. You take someone with those values and put them in a system less corrupt and more ripe with opportunities, and they'll flourish.
 
Mar 13, 2007
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#5
This is biased rubbish for most part and just bad research for the sake of controversy and selling books. of course those with more emphasize on education, family values, hard work,...tend to be more success full and vice versa, this is no rocket science, but to simplify and identify specific cultural groups in a biased setting is just bad research.

Is iranian community on average more successful than others financially and in terms of higher education? yes I do believe that, but that has nothing to do with their 'culture'.

As ME alluded to as well, these so called successful cultural groups are just a selected segment of these cultures who fairly recently immigrated to north America who embedded these values and look for economic success in the first place, thats why they left anyways. They are different than the irish or italians or others who were driven out in hordes at the beginning of the century and then later in the 30s and 40s. So we are not comparing apples to apples here.

For example for most part iranians especially those in US were affluent in the first place, their most successful groups even often belonged to other more successful subgroups like jews, bahais, armenians and etc.

Same can be said about indians, lebanese or others she is mentioning who predominately came here in more recent decades with money, skill and an established committed family.
the other thing is that we dont see any evidence of this in their native lands and that it has translated into nothing. If this was cultural we should then see the whole nation of Nigeria, india, iran, Lebanon , china,...who are success full, flourishing and leading. For most part all these nations are still 3rd world countries who have not contributed to or had a major impact on world development for 1000s of years now. Japan is a special case, they rose to the top in a few short decades but there are questions about their future.
On the other hand we already have prove of economic and social success of European cultures in terms of European and north American countries themselves pointing directly also to their cultures. This gets lost when someone directly only compares Beverly hills iranians to general americans in Memphis, Kansas or new mexico.
This research should only say: those who put emphasis on education and family values tend to be more successful.
 

IranZamin

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Feb 17, 2006
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If this was cultural we should then see the whole nation of Nigeria, india, iran, Lebanon , china,...who are success full, flourishing and leading. For most part all these nations are still 3rd world countries who have not contributed to or had a major impact on world development for 1000s of years now.
This is why I said those values lead people to flourish when they live in societies that are less corrupt and offer more opportunities for education and entrepreneurship. The reason most Asian countries remain less successful has more to do with the fact that for all their right attitudes on family and personal accomplishment they have plenty of shitty ideas about governance, macroeconomic management and the practice of corruption.

I was actually going to mention this and point out that not all the cultural beliefs Asians bring with them are optimal. They bring over a lot of flawed ideas when it comes to politics and national affairs.

This research should only say: those who put emphasis on education and family values tend to be more successful.
Pretty much.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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the other thing is that we dont see any evidence of this in their native lands and that it has translated into nothing. If this was cultural we should then see the whole nation of Nigeria, india, iran, Lebanon , china,...who are success full, flourishing and leading.
That is very true. The same young man who was living with his parents in Iran and made nothing, will have a job, a car and an apartment within 5 years of landing in the US. This actually proves the opposite in that it is not his culture that is responsible for his success, it is the culture of the country he immigrated to.I go as far as saying that leaving that culture behind actually helped him.
 

IranZamin

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Flint, read my post above yours. You can't tell me that within 5 years the guy you're talking about has forgotten about his old culture and adopted a new one. What's really happened is he's taken his cultural values on work and education and applied them in a more sensible, more open and better managed system where those efforts are rewarded.

Of course the fact that the same person often has backward notions about governance and national economy and usually votes for policies that in the long term will lead his new nation down the same path as the old one is a whole different discussion.
 

TeamMeli

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Feb 5, 2014
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#9
This is biased rubbish for most part and just bad research for the sake of controversy and selling books. of course those with more emphasize on education, family values, hard work,...tend to be more success full and vice versa, this is no rocket science, but to simplify and identify specific cultural groups in a biased setting is just bad research.

Is iranian community on average more successful than others financially and in terms of higher education? yes I do believe that, but that has nothing to do with their 'culture'.

As ME alluded to as well, these so called successful cultural groups are just a selected segment of these cultures who fairly recently immigrated to north America who embedded these values and look for economic success in the first place, thats why they left anyways. They are different than the irish or italians or others who were driven out in hordes at the beginning of the century and then later in the 30s and 40s. So we are not comparing apples to apples here.

For example for most part iranians especially those in US were affluent in the first place, their most successful groups even often belonged to other more successful subgroups like jews, bahais, armenians and etc.

Same can be said about indians, lebanese or others she is mentioning who predominately came here in more recent decades with money, skill and an established committed family.
the other thing is that we dont see any evidence of this in their native lands and that it has translated into nothing. If this was cultural we should then see the whole nation of Nigeria, india, iran, Lebanon , china,...who are success full, flourishing and leading. For most part all these nations are still 3rd world countries who have not contributed to or had a major impact on world development for 1000s of years now. Japan is a special case, they rose to the top in a few short decades but there are questions about their future.
On the other hand we already have prove of economic and social success of European cultures in terms of European and north American countries themselves pointing directly also to their cultures. This gets lost when someone directly only compares Beverly hills iranians to general americans in Memphis, Kansas or new mexico.
This research should only say: those who put emphasis on education and family values tend to be more successful.
Not only that this woman has a law degree from Yale University and this kind of garbage spews out of her mouth. She is also a very controversial figure and her style of parenting ie being a helicopter mom seriously screws kids up more than it helps them. It's obnoxious I had two helicopter parents and I had to join the freaking Navy in order to escape San Quentin. Oh and notice she puts her race at the top of the list if the Chinese are so superior to everyone, how come so many Chinese want to move to America? She also puts an emphasis on education and like you said most Iranians(it doesn't matter if you are Caucasian or whatever) put an importance on education and career success. Most Iranians come from a somewhat well to do family so college education is going to be provided for.

Anyways I think we discussed this book before and honestly I think this Chinese American woman is a racist and that really cracks me up deep down you can tell and notice the Asian countries are on the top of her list(I know Iran is technically ME or west Asia but it's still Asia, she has China, Iran and India) at the top of her list.

By the way the same thing can be said about the Cubans we have that in common most Cubans who fled Castro's regime had the money to do so and most were educated. The poor ones stayed behind that is another flaw in her study she is only studying Iranian Americans who made it here and had the means to do so. She didn't study the Iranians in Iran who are still struggling to get a job.
 

Flint

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#10
Flint, read my post above yours. You can't tell me that within 5 years the guy you're talking about has forgotten about his old culture and adopted a new one. What's really happened is he's taken his cultural values on work and education and applied them in a more sensible, more open and better managed system where those efforts are rewarded.
Cultural values about work? Are you kidding me? There are 40 year old men who are living with their moms, and that is perfectly normal. No shame. The biggest distinction is NOT to work but having lots of money to spend. Just watch the rich kids driving billion toman cars with no jobs. We brought NOTHING from Iran to make us successful here, certainly not cultural. In fact, we are successful in spite of coming from Iran, not because of it.
 

IranZamin

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Feb 17, 2006
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Cultural values about work? Are you kidding me? There are 40 year old men who are living with their moms, and that is perfectly normal. No shame. The biggest distinction is NOT to work but having lots of money to spend. Just watch the rich kids driving billion toman cars with no jobs. We brought NOTHING from Iran to make us successful here, certainly not cultural. In fact, we are successful in spite of coming from Iran, not because of it.
Now you're being unreasonable. I'll never disagree that politically we're idiots, but to say we brought NOTHING in terms of cultural qualities? Give me a break.

The 40-year-old guys living with their parents in Iran is a common problem because we're dealing with a failing, assbackward system where people with PhDs have to drive cabs to make a living. It's a broken structure that rewards connections and corruption more than it does effort and ingenuity. And rich kids living off daddy's money is not just an Iranian thing. Far from it.

But those other cultural norms that I mentioned before are factors that greatly reduce the odds of people and their children ending up poor and/or criminal in America. The belief that only lowlife men would abandon their kids; that mothers who sacrifice for their children are not traitors to some feminist cause; that being educated is not "corny"; that a "thug" is just a loser and not someone for the youth to admire and look up to... Are these not common cultural traits for Iranians as well as most other Asian groups? Are you not more likely to prosper in America if you subscribe to these beliefs? Come on dude.
 
Oct 16, 2002
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DarvAze DoolAb
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#12
The belief that only lowlife men would abandon their kids; that mothers who sacrifice for their children are not traitors to some feminist cause; that being educated is not "corny"; that a "thug" is just a loser and not someone for the youth to admire and look up to.
But aside from a percentage of the black community (a small minority mind you), I don't know of any other 'culture' where those things you mentioned are different than the Iranian culture.

Sure, the Iranian culture has its differences (not anything extreme) with other cultures, but I have no idea how any of them contribute to success and prosperity. If anything, most traits specific to the Iranian culture go against productivity and ambition.
 

IranZamin

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^ Let me be clear that I'm not implying somehow we and other Asians have some amazing insight. Most of those principles are common sense, but the problem is they're sadly lacking not just in a considerable percentage of the Black community but also in the Latino and to a lesser extent White underclass.

For example, both Blacks and Latinos have a similar rate of teen pregnancy almost 3 times higher than whites. Over 70% of black children and half of Latinos are also born to unwed mothers. The Whites aren't doing too well either with 30%, but the rate for Asians is only 17%.

The absence of fathers by itself is a HUGE issue. Black kids in America who grow up with their fathers are no more likely to commit crimes than a white kid of the same socioeconomic background. Now consider the following:

* 63 percent of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
* 90 percent of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
* 85 percent of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
* 80 percent of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
* 71 percent of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
* 75 percent of all adolescent patients in chemical-abuse centers come from fatherless homes
* 85 percent of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes

Can we still say that subscribing to an Asian culture doesn't have certain advantages in America? I'll say it again: when you look at the groups that prosper here, you'll see they share very similar views on the importance of parenthood and long term planning and on the value of work and education. When you look at those groups doing poorly, you'll again see similar attitudes that may vary in scale from community to community but in the end are quite alike in their dismissive nature.
 

Flint

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#14
But those other cultural norms that I mentioned before are factors that greatly reduce the odds of people and their children ending up poor and/or criminal in America. The belief that only lowlife men would abandon their kids; that mothers who sacrifice for their children are not traitors to some feminist cause; that being educated is not "corny"; that a "thug" is just a loser and not someone for the youth to admire and look up to... Are these not common cultural traits for Iranians as well as most other Asian groups? Are you not more likely to prosper in America if you subscribe to these beliefs? Come on dude.
I don't disagree with you here but have you noticed that what you have listed is the manifesto of the social conservatives in the US? These values are not uniquely Iranian or Asian but they have been turned on their heads here by 50 years of social meddling by the government. This is corrupting even the new immigrants who would gladly take whatever benefits the government has for them. In the end nothing moves you more than believing that you are on your own.
 

IranZamin

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^ Long-term welfare (instead of short-term emergency assistance) definitely is an enabling factor. It basically takes away a major incentive for thinking ahead when it comes to pregnancy and having children because the woman knows even if the guy is a loser and walks away the government will just replace him with a paycheck. What she doesn't understand is that government handouts do nothing for the psychological effects on children who grow up with an absentee father.
 

Zob Ahan

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Feb 4, 2005
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#17
Baba hala yek jakeshi peida shodeh migeh ma too yek chizi khoobim, berin halesho bebarin.
Exactly. We as a culture have alot of flaws but one thing I am certain about is the value we put in family and education is not comparable to any other culture. Now some self haters might come out here & try to prove that its because of X or Y or whatever but no matter what the reason it is a fact & this lady is acknowledging it. Lets just leave it at that.