What is " Good" Citizenship..?

[beystr 2.0]

My dear friend Masoud’s comments in some other thread prompt me to start this thread.

What are the principles of good citizenship ?...Now for me and as I get older , The residency and the legal status “ Citizen” move a lot closer and to me more or less a good citizen is a good universal citizen ....an all –world good citizen..But, is it possible..? if you listen to propaganda’s and steadfast positions of many countries, you may start seeing “ good citizenship” as a zero sum gain kind of thing. I hope to argue here that this should not be the case .

Indeed, the “citizenship” has become a fluid and somewhat dynamic phenomenon in our world. Increasingly You are born in one place , educated some other place, and reside for a short while/live here and there. But I still hope we can come up with principles that move beyond who is where and the physical boundaries without “ Romancing” too much…

Admittedly, it won’t be as easy or as clear-cut , since one of the pillars of “ good citizenship” has always been and still is, to defend your house, nAmoos per say….and this usually sets up a chain of activities that could derail you from being a true " good citizen". but it don't have to..

“ Good citizenship” should become a way of life and a continuous effort in being or living in a way that is good for you and the other guy…is it possible?

How do you see it..? Would love to hear your take

 

[masoudA]

Great topic amoo bey. I would differentiate between being a good human and a good citizen - one can be one, or both. Citizenship comes with a declaration of loyalty to a physical boundary......but this loyalty does not mean not to be critical of governments like IR or the Obama admin......in fact when I took the oath the speaker went out of his way to explain to the group how the US government is liable to the citizens and how the citizens is responsible and encouraged to keep the government orderly..... by criticizing and even opposing the government when necessary.

 

[beystr 2.0]

Thanks amoo masoud....I'm gonna try like hell to see if I can communicate my point , which after all is nothing revolutionary and being practiced by many, suppose, good communication skills can be regarded as good citizenship..

well...if we agree that politicians, industrialists , bankers..etc are just another person...then if we can begin committing to a certain principles that is more humane...then the line between legal citizenship and " a good human" can start narrowing.

One of the practices of " good citizenship" IMO, is in fact reducing your own footprint no matter where....and that is only based on " good deeds" rather than say, having an opinion about Climate change in one way or another...things like reducing your trash, recycling ur own trash ( where possible).....reducing ur fresh water wastage....something like not using ur car one day a week or one day a month....that kind of stuff...totally voluntarily and do it if u r the only one doing it..

Being critical of your Government or any other, is one thing....taking steps in doing something right in that same spirit ( the points u r being critical of) is more like what I'm hoping for myself at least, to be a guiding light...

For example....I'm ready to add one to the 10 commandments....that would be..." thou shall not disassemble governments ....nor should you work to destabilize them beyond repair"...so in this spirit...I'm saying even disassembling the present KSA gov. is not a good thing....

 

[beystr 2.0]

And if someone says...wait a mintue...u mean u would not destabilize the Nazi regime..... my point would be...exactly that...and that is bcuz indeed, when u read the history....u see that the European total siege of Germany can be pointed out as in fact the very reason of Nazi regime dong what they did...

 

[masoudA]

sounds to me like you are anti revolution.......and you gauge revolution based on ours or so many others which were not successful. It's like saying you are against wars......but agree the American revolution wars against the Brits was a good thing.....the first defeat of colonialists in the hands of locals. IR is evil......and unless you logically make me believe a religion based government can be a good thing and in line with humanity, then your 11th commandment becomes flawed, dictating fall of all evil and anti human establishments anywhere. American founding fathers knew someday an idiot like Obama will come along and would push the country towards evil behavior.....that is why they came up with the Freedom of assembly, expression, protest,........we still have those here, but under evil entities such as IR,.......those freedoms have been demolished and out the window since inception - and it is our duty, anywhere to fight evil. Having said that.....life under IR dictates a whole different rules.........I know you are convinced US sucks these days - and it does - but in here there still are instruments available to make serious changes, starting with the whole federalism leaving a lot of independence in states. If I can insert a joke here - earlier I was talking to an eyranian mutual friend in LA,......pro Obama turned anti Obama because his insurance $ has gone up. I told him we are thinking to give you (Cal) back to Mexico - he said great at least we won't have to deal with Obama anymore, and won't have to pay back our $$$$$$ debt to the Federal government. I told him, that is OK we halal the debt and will gladly let you take Hollywood with you to Mexico........just know we shall cut off the flow of the Colorado River into Cal, and wished him well with the Chicanos!! Where were we? Yes - doing away with systems.......to me the answer is simple.......Article of Human rights...there are 30 of them.

 

[beystr 2.0]

LOL....that is funny...suppose california is going mexican anyway...but ye..if u want to make Mexican's life harder than it is...go ahead and give'em California...lol

ahhhh...tell u Masoud jon...I know what u r saying and I really try to keep mindful of everything ...after all u know I was firmly and somewhat wisely ( in this case at least ..lol) against the revolucion and we were not even 21 or something like that...

And here I go again after really examining everything that's gone on...politics...people's aspirations..their fanaticism....good and bad...I'm arriving at the same point I was 35 yrs ago...although arguably we are talking apples and oranges....but the Osool garA in me ..lol...has taken me to this same route and the same stance....and btw- I'm totally aware that I could be wrong....I am not that myopic yet....Not a " China" yet...lol

But Masoud jon...in fact for all the reasons u mentioned above I have come to believe in ..for lack of better words...evolution rather than revolution....and yes of course...you can say in certain terms that..this is not a conducive environment for evolution....see ur point...but I still say and say it to people around me ( and they don't like it at all) that until and unless ..you and very much you and me ..tA adam doroosti nashim hich chi avaz nemishe....aval khodeto bayad eslAh koni...then The government that match's ur level inevitably will have to come.....

and That's the reason actually I'm opitimistic about future..bcuz I see many people r taking this route...and to me...it is absolutely certain...that if this bs and really a fucked up pressure is lifted from Iran...that we will florish....This game that Americans are playing is the most dirtiest...dishonest...charlAtn ship to the max...I mean every bad thing u can say ...and poor Americans ( the people) who out of nowhere and just out of bad luck..lol..run into me in planes and shit...they fully agree and totally sympethize with what I tell them...

Sareto dard ovordam... I would hope to talk more about this...but Masoud ...to me ..This principles of revolution ( at least in the last half century if not more) is the same Scam that is advertised as Refinancing in U.S....it is a total kolAh bardAri and chrlatan ship game.....in both instances u may get a very short relief for a life time of headache....I have come to totally see it...it is an unsavory solution that only can ruin you for a long time...we are here as a proof....

 

[masoudA]

بی جان

همانطور که من بارها اینجا گفته ام، من به هیچ وجه مردم داخل ایران را در ارتباط با برخورد با رژیم مورد قضاوت قرار نمیدهم......به نظر من زندگی در ایران و در کنار مردم ایران یک محبت، ولی امرار معاش در آنجا تبدیل به نوعی بدبختی و فلاکت شده است. همانطور که بارها حضوری صحبت کردیم، چه خوش درامد انسان از راهی باشد که در انتها انسان به نتایجش افتخار کند......همانطور که میدانم در مورد تو صادق است. شک نیست که میتوان کارهای شایسته و بی نظیر انجام داد، حتا در لجن زار حکومت مفت خورآن. به نظر من فرق است بین "درست" زندگی کردن، و "خوب" زندگی کردن. برای مثال من میدانم که که نباید گوشت بخورم، حتا برایم ثابت هم شده که گوشت خوردن خلاف روح انسانیت است، ولی هنوز میخورم....برای خوب زندگی کردن. درست زندگی کردن در همه جا دیکته میکند که انسان بر روی مبانی انسانی و اخلاقی تکیه و حتا اصرار کند، لکن تنازع بقأ و میل به زندگی "خوب" دائماً "درست" زندگی کردن را به چالش میکشد. درست که تو در شرایطی هستی که هیچ نیاز به دستبوس آخوند نداری، و روزگارت به آسایش و نتایج فعالیتهایت چشمگیر و قابل احترام است، ولی این را بدان، دروغ، خود پرستی، زیاده خواهی، و تنبلی چهار خاصیتی است که انسان را به زوال میکشد، و آخوندهای ما جملگی را به وفور دارند - در نتیجه حکومتشان و اشاعه اخلاقیاتشن ایران را به زوال کشیده و خواهد کشید.

ولی سخنی هم در مورد آمریکا - چون میدانم که حد اقل بخشی از متا مرفیس تو مربوط میشود از حمایتهای گذشته از کشور دومت آمریکا. من هم این روزها به شدت از کارهای دولت اوباما به خصوص در زمینه بین المللی منزجر و به عنوان یک آمریکایی مثل ۶۱% دیگر آمریکاییها شرمسار هستم. ولی من به دنبال سرنگونی این سیستم درست نیستم......از پایه که به آمریکا نگاه میکنم، همه چیز درست است. من با زیاده خواهی کپیتالیسم مشکل دارم، با فروش منافع ملی به چند لابی وگر اروپایی، و یا از بین بردن کشورها برای حفظ منافع دو تا شرکت بسیار مخالفم، و مهمتر اینکه با آن مبارزه هم میکنم. نمیدونم خبر داری یا نه، این روزها بزرگترین دشمن تی پارتی حزب جمهوریخواه است.....چون تی پارتی داره میزانه به ریشه بسیاری از همین مشکلات.....دستگاه پروپاگاند استبلیشمنت هم که سخت نگرانه شدید مشغول خراب کردنه این حرکته. یک مشت مردم سکولار رو قشری و مذهبی معرفی میکنه!! در هر حل، به نظر من، در اثر داشتن مشکلات با آمریکا یا حتا اروپا، ما نباید خود را در کنار شبه انسان هایی نزیر طالبان یا رهبران عربستان ببینیم......ولی همانطور که میدونی همین چند روز پیش با اکثر آرا سازمان ملل عربستان را به عضویت شورای امنیت پذیرفت، که تازه اون دیوثها قبول هم نکردند....لابد پول و قول زیادی در کار بوده!!


BTW - nothing Personal, but Go Man U against Arsenal (they are 1-0 up already) ......we lost today, and we just can't afford to fall too far behind. damn Spurs can't score a goal in EPL...

 

[beystr 2.0]

I knew I 'd excited and not get my point across correctly......so let me at least on the 11th commandment make this clarification...

By " you shall not do ....so n so to governments" ,,I meant as an outsider..."You shall not work to cause/plot the governments that may indeed be considered foe or unfriendly to yours, to be destabilized or worse to implode or disintegrate. "

Just like any family, if left to their own device , the may choose a divorce or engage in many other unpleasant activities in their own house....that is their right and up to them...what we would all agree is that, it would not be good to cause this family to disintegrate from outside friends or neighbors based on some notion of them acting in line with justice and so on..

This to me is the same principle....nations on their own natural course may indeed choose to revolt...that is for them to decide..what I'm proposing here is...it should be considered a major sin if u as an outsider and due to your implied national interest and whatever reason it may be, plot or causue major upheavals in countries that are not aligned with you in present day....

Why ?..bcuz like any bad deed...this will come back to hunt you sooner or later....Governments are foundations of our civilization and we should only work to enhance them if we can..if we can't or not interested then leave them alone...

CC: God

 

[beystr 2.0]

I knew I 'd excited and not get my point across correctly......so let me at least on the 11th commandment make this clarification...

By " you shall not do ....so n so to governments" ,,I meant as an outsider..."You shall not work to cause/plot the governments that may indeed be considered foe or unfriendly to yours, to be destabilized or worse to implode or disintegrate. "

Just like any family, if left to their own device , the may choose a divorce or engage in many other unpleasant activities in their own house....that is their right and up to them...what we would all agree is that, it would not be good to cause this family to disintegrate from outside friends or neighbors based on some notion of them acting in line with justice and so on and so forth..

This to me is the same principle....nations on their own natural course may indeed choose to revolt...that is for them to decide..what I'm proposing here is...it should be considered a major sin if u as an outsider and due to your implied national interest and/or whatever reason it may be, plot or cause major upheavals in countries that are not aligned with you in present day....

Why ?..bcuz like any bad deed...this will come back to hunt you sooner or later....Governments are foundations of our civilization and we should only work to enhance them if we can..if we can't or not interested then leave them alone...

CC: God

 

[Behrooz_C]

Good citizenry is like you Beys, obedient to the orders of the Great Leader.....Labeik ya khamenei!

 

[beystr 2.0]

che konim dige amoo behrooz...belakhare yeki bayad role Sarbaz e emam zaman o bazi knoe.....lol..

but seriously..c'mon...u mean u couldn't give us a couple of things u consider as " good citizenship"..?

 

[Bi-honar]

To me, good citizenship is understanding, acknowledging, and accepting the moral, social and human values that your country stands for, understanding how it arrived at those values within a historical context and firmly standing against any deviations from it by anyone and for any reason.

 

[beystr 2.0]

would u expand on it a bit pls BH jon.....u mean u would be oppose to any change to those values..? how would you do it..?

 

[Bi-honar]

would u expand on it a bit pls BH jon.....u mean u would be oppose to any change to those values..? how would you do it..?

As long as change is for the better, meaning toward universal moral values and freedoms, it should be embraced and strived for, not opposed.

For example, when I took the oath of citizenship in Canada I understood, acknowledged and appreciated the Charter or Rights and Freedoms - that's the core values that Canada stood for domestically and those are the core values that every Canadian citizen should not only accept, but cherish. Moving toward a police state where we lose sight of our protection against unreasonable search and seizure (section 9 of the charter) for example, would be a change in the wrong direction and all citizens should oppose it. Allowing same sex couples to marry was an equality right granted under section 15, and therefore I would consider it a step in the right direction. As far as foreign relations, Canada was known as the peace-keepers of the world and it is a pity, not just to me but many Canadians that we have lost that status under the conservatives and I hope that we collectively strive to get there again soon.

 

[beystr 2.0]

Good...somewhere or somebody told me...a good citizen must stay relevant..meaning that ur existence should mean something hopefully positive...That would require a " good citizen" to be involved with the society he/she is the citizen of..even if you are not a political person per say there are 1000's different ways one can contribute...

I'm happy to tell u that many Iranians have become relevant...and the backbone of democracy which IMO is the extent and level of activities of NGO's have really gone up in recent years...we must have over 10 NGO's just in Tehran and just for Tehran's environmental issues..I've seen them in action myself...next challenge is to actually coordinate and harmonize these NGO's...so that maximum result can be achieved..it's a work in progress...

 

[Bi-honar]

Sure, I don't oppose NGO's, other groups or individuals staying relevant in Iran and I wish them the very best.

My issue with Iran is that IR's core values are the exact opposite of my beliefs and I don't think people like me form a very small percentage of the Iranian population. There's a reason I'm no longer an Iranian citizen (and many people like me) in the sense of not living there - because I don't accept those core values. The problem is that many people don't accept those core values of non-equality, discrimination, lack of every type of right and an archaic cast system from 23 centuries ago. Anything that happens in Iran has to conform those archaic and undesirable core values.

So, we have NGO's fighting for the environment, but lake Urumieh is all but completely dried up as your own signature suggests. What could be considered more of an environmental disaster than one of the most important environmental symbols of our culture is being destroyed?! Same thing about Zayandeh Rud, one of the oldest known sites of our civilization and ancestors that has been there for thousands of years is being destroyed like that. Again, it's good to stay relevant, but it's difficult to do so in a society that gives no relevance to anything other than how people should dress and what Arabic sentence they utter at the beginning of their sentences.

 

[beystr 2.0]

well...I get it u don't like the "core values" and can't accept it....so what happens from there on?...did u set the core values where u live right now..?

I don't expect everyone to stay on and fight the fight...But I have a lot of respect for those who do...and for many that have no other choice, but decide to be more relevant rather than " ghahr konan " o beshinan khoone va just be miserable..

The other fact is...that if 1/5 of sanctions and the amount of hurt that has been unnecessarily put on Iran has been done in the place you live in right now...I can be almost sure people would be cutting each other's head and eating and stealing each other's flesh ...you and your core values would not stand no chance whatsoever...

Ye.... and we all know too well about all the drying lakes....and guess what ? when the money that should be spent on various projects such as these are blocked in foreign banks bcuz some of your type of societies who are a mere bitch of U.S. and wouldn't dare to say something worthwhile on the basic "core values " of humanity....then what u say can be worth nothing if the tables were turned around.....someday , if we ever survive this pure barbarity....history will be full of glowing praise of these same Iranians here who endured it and didn't resort to cannibalism..we shall see...

 

[beystr 2.0]

talking about the societies that open up their arms for a thief with 3 billion dollars...and then shut their embassy doors when the rubbery is over......fantastic....what a freakin' outstanding bunch of " core values"....lol

 

[Bi-honar]

Yes, yes, we all know you hate the rest of the world and even your hamvatans that don't see things that way - everything is always everyone else's fault! In fact, the only people you don't hate are the very people who are sucking your country and hamvatans dry both financially and literally from IR to Assad to Hezbollah to Hamas! And what, I'm supposed to feel guilty because I think we should learn to live in peace and harmony with the rest of the world rather than exporting terrorists, missiles, drones, proxy fighters and a hateful and archaic socio-political ideologies or pursuing nuclear weapons?!

Yes, yes, I see you fighting the fight here every day! Criticize, ridicule and put down any and all parts of humanity or nations that have one shred of decency and stand for something other than rape, torture, imprisonment and killing of civilians? You're quick to mention theft of $3M, but forget to mention 10 times that amount is being stolen from Iranians every day and diverted either to the pockets of individuals or groups who put their own ideologies or agendas before that of their nation and people?!

Yeah, we have core values here in Canada and I'm damn proud of them. One of those core values is to still treat people like you with respect and give you the same rights under the law, to live to speak and to believe in what you will, despite your twisted socio-political beliefs and hateful attitude. What exactly are the core values you and people you support stand for?! Kill all those who don't agree with you? And you want me to feel bad that sanctions are finally forcing people like you to learn to play ball with the rest of the world?!

 

[masoudA]

Couple of notes -
Bey has a point about being relevant. One can be irrelevant and fight and achieve nothing.....at the same time one can go along, be relevant and achieve something. Those who live in Iran have no choice but to be "Eslah Talab" for the time being, otherwise they would be irrelevant and eventually eliminated. But for us outside Iran the choice is obvious. I have to agree with BH - Going along with values against your core beliefs shall result in much greater losses than any achievements, which would be mostly cosmetic under totalitarian systems.
Let me remind you guys - The core system of IR stands for a class society (Khavas - Avam), with full discrimination based on gender and religion........basically against all human achievements of the last few centuries. Nothing good will come out of such.